Achievements of the Tusk's Polish government

Do you think that Berlusconi's government is a good one ?


Poland is hardly a developed country.


You still don't get it (or rather pretend not to get it) It's not about overall economic situation but about conditions for business, which are determinated mainly by the governing politicians. Polish business hasn't collapsed yet, despite haveing to operate under terrible conditions, yes... and that proves what... ?

Despite trade union`s rage and opposition (right wing PiS and left wing SLD) protests,

MPs have voted to adopt amendments to the pension system in Poland, raising the retirement age for men and women, gradually from 2013, to 67 years of age.

It is definitely a great success of the government.

Late retirement is standard in Europe today.

A Great success ? Why don't they ship all people to slavery and than sell the land, that would be even greater success, and think about monies you and your cronies could make on that 1

Sure, late retirement is standard in Europe eh? Where exactly ?
What about jobs for those old people ? What if they cannot get any job?
Also minimum wages are higher in Europe like four, six times, Why government is not focusing on align to those standards eh?

Maybe because they have no monies and they are desperately trying to find dosh anywhere !

Yes, it is a success of Tusk`s government. And your nonsensical rants can`t change it. :):):):)

Goodnight, Iron. :):):)

Your silly answers always help me realise I am spending too much time in the forum .:):):):)

Thank you for that. :):):):)


Ok, after a good night`s sleep and a few zlotys earned at Saturday courses, I feel like King Kong.

Iron, I am ready for you!


Silly.


E.g., Germany, Norway - 67.

UK, Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark, Belgium etc etc - 65.


What about pensions for early pensioners? What if the state won`t be able to finance it like now?

You have no idea about the pension system in Poland. E.g., in the old system, a policeman was entitled to retire after 15 years. Funny, wasn`t it?

Read this article from 2006. It shows how serious the problem was and still is.
wbj.pl/article-32130-bringing-zus-back-to-earth.html

Youthful retirees
With 1.5 million people in early retirement, Poland has the youngest old-age pensioners in the world, and they cost the budget zł.20 billion annually. In 2005, the average man beginning his retirement was 58.7 years old. For women starting their retirement, the average age was 56. According to the projections of the Central Statistical Office, in 2030 people older than 65 will account for 24 percent of society. Currently, the figure is 13 percent.

Someone has to pay into the system in order for retirees to receive their pensions, but the number of those professionally active in Poland continues to shrink. However, instead of finding new ways of putting more people to work, subsequent governments have given in to the demands of various groups of workers, granting them new retirement privileges.

"Miners can opt for early retirement schemes, and as a result they actually get three times more from the social-security system than they put into it while they were still professionally active. Their annual contributions amount to zł.3 billion and they obtain zł.8 billion. I don't question anyone's right to the old-age pension when they reach the right age, but if governments don't change their policy, we risk a breakdown of public finance," warns Mordasewicz.

"I believe that the issue of social insurance is the most urgent problem for the government to solve. With adverse demographic tendencies and more and more groups demanding privileges, the state will finally go bankrupt," Mordasewicz warns.

Robert Gwiazdowski is blunt about the issue: "Since the times of Bismarck, states had difficulties in dealing with these issues. Some cope better, some worse. People have to stop taking for granted the fact that the state is going to support them in their old age and realize that by going on strike and demanding early retirement schemes they actually do it against their children. Finally, people simply have to have more children."

Let`s be frank, experts say the new reform is a very mild one because it is going to prolong the changes for many years.

The government wants to gradually raise the retirement age starting from 2013. Every four months the retirement age will be rise by one month (in other words, rising by a total of three months every year). In this way the target retirement age of 67 will be reached by 2020 for men, and 2040 for women. The Prime Minister emphasises that the reform is to safeguard public finances.


Because the efficiency of Polish workers is still lower than in Western Europe. We lose too much time at work. However, wages are higher in the old EU but the cost of living too. Don`t forget it.

Now, I expect rational arguments from you.

Are you able to provide them?

I doubt that.

billy ?


Norway correct !
Although I must add that in the western countries average life expectancy for males is about 8 years higher. In practical terms it means that average male Polish pensioner can enjoy his retainment for about 4 years while his Norwegian counterpart about 12 years. I would say that is the substantial difference.

Germany ? wrong!
That is typical sloppiness of PO so called experts !!!!!!:(
Currently retainment age in Germany is 65, however starting this year retainment age will be gradually growing for a month (for 12 years) and then two months for another six years. So, in the year 2029 retainment age in Germany will be 67.


Again Sweden - 61, although law allows to work those who want till 67, freely chosen !!!Also policemen and fireman can retire at the age of 58!
What do you mean ect ????
Other countries in Europe;
Finland - 63 !
France - 60 (will rise in 2018 to 62!)
Italy - 57 in 2014 will be 62!
Czech - 60!
Hungary - 62
Lithuania - 62
EC has given some recommendation as to increase of minimum retainment age but one again Tusk bunch of thieves and greedy morons goes to use it as a pretext to rob the nation some more.

As it was with VAT, then with payments for few unfinished highways and now with a new retainment age.
Coffers must be empty, four years era of orgy and blind robbery come to an end.
It is desperate move, that new "reform" gives government about billion zloty per year.
They are desperate indeed !


Because managers are shity and their efficiency is low.


slightly, I would say that wages are about five times higher in the old EU than Poland whereas cost of living is about twice as much.


Back to old tricks pawain ? It was you not me who lost


debate
and it is you not me who should be worrying about his credibility !
I'm not saying that pension system in Poland is perfect.I think it should be changed long time ago. Unfortunately there were nobody able to do it and what is presented by the Tusk government is not any reform either but primitive and simple attempt at saving some money for gov budged!At the expense of hard working senior citizens.

Another factor I forgot to mention but quite obvious - where all those people will be working ?eh?
You do not expect 66 years old zipping up and down scaffolding ? or digging coal at the fore ?
eh?

There are always jobs to suit and given that the increase in retirement age is partly due to more and more people staying fit and healthy for longer, we shouldn't make assumptions. Anyway, nobody here is expected to perform a task at work that they are unfit for.

Really ? In Poland ?
Are those jobs paid ?or we are making assumptions here ?

That's just nit-picking. There's an aging population, life expectancy is increasing and there's a finite pot of money for social provision. The current government are working with the same situation that any other party would - except PiS would simply duck the issue or make promises that they could never fulfil. Or hope that prayer would solve the problem.

Assumption ?


For you ! For an 66 years old man with health problems and without substantial savings that is a real life and death issue.

And the issue is that if he has what you describe as health problems then he is in any case unfit tor work. If he is fit for work, then being 66 is no longer a reason for the state to retire him on full pension.

Unless you know of some magic source of money.

Fit or not what kind of job could possibly find manual laborer at the age 66 or even 64. In Poland where average life expectancy for males is about 71?

Do you think that an average 66 years old do not have some underlaying health issue which would impair his ability to compete with 30 years old ?

Ask any physician.


a good printer ?

What makes you think that a. he'd be doing the same thing or that b. the government haven't thought about that? They aren't PiS, so they do actually think!

Interesting that you provide such data while I provide this:

It is not a pure coincidence that the economies of Sweden, Norway and Denmark are in better shape than those of Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal. The big difference in retirement age plays a big role. Sweden's statutory retirement age is 65 and the actual exit age, which is lower due to various early retirement schemes, is 64.3 according to Eurostat's most recent figures. That is the highest in the EU.

From an article August 2011

globalpost.com/dispatch/news/business-tech/debt-crisis/110815/europe-debt-crisis-retirement-age

So, who is wrong?

That is not all.

Earlier this year, Sweden launched a commission to study retirement. "As the life expectancy increases, more people need to work longer than today. Too many leave before turning 65. This is about increasing the actual exit age," said Sweden's Secretary of Social Insurances, Ulf Kristersson. The commission will consider limiting early retirement schemes, raising the age that workers are entitled to keep their jobs from 67 to 69, and further raising the statutory age of retirement. "More people need to work longer than today or the pensions will decrease," Kristersson said.

But the Polish reform will also be introduced for many years. Did you read it al all?:

The government wants to gradually raise the retirement age starting from 2013. Every four months the retirement age will be rise by one month (in other words, rising by a total of three months every year). In this way the target retirement age of 67 will be reached by 2020 for men, and 2040 for women.

that is some political website of Micheal Goldfarb ....phew!?


have you read my post ?
I have provided correct data while you provided incorrect and then you trying to salvage your loses by quoting some odd website !
Why are you debating with yourself ?You have given your arguments why such change in Poland is needed now and why it should be done in this way and I have responded !

Please respond to my original post, otherwise our chat makes no sense !

quote=jon357]What makes you think that a. he'd be doing the same thing or that b. the government haven't thought about that? They aren't PiS, so they do actually think[/quote]

do they ? the question remains about what ?because hey are not doing that well governing that country !
What makes me think that haven't thought about that ?Like missing promised motorways, like the way they handled the Smolensk crash .....

And?

If you want another source on Sweden, here you are - a Swedish site in English:

thelocal.se/31922/20110208/


Nope, you didn`t. Your info on Sweden was false.

And you also abstained from providing any links to your sources.

On top of that all, you are constantly lying.

Bad Iron.

I see the nuances of political debate a la PO-PiS have reached Polish Forums :D

You are lying and manipulating, you little con.

You have posted some date about retirement age in Europe, suggesting that every country in the EU are doing the same - i.e. increasing retirement age !

Whereas data clearly shows that only Poland's government changes has risen retirement age to the highest level in Europe and earlier than exemplary Germany.

You argument that Poland should do it because others are doing that doesn't hold water. It is another shity nonsense in the long string of nonsenses you posted in defiance of the truth.

Given the fact that average life expectancy in Poland is eight years lower than in the countries of the old EU and work for elderly is not easy available Tusk reforms are clearly seen for what they really is - i.e.reckless misuse of power.

Reason, financial situation of Poland is in a dire state. Tusk gov policy fault!
This reform gives them billion zloty per annum !

theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/jun/24/retirement-ages-oecd-countries

UK is increasing the retirement age to 67.
as has Spain
bbc.co.uk/news/business-12305246

Greece is trying to news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8506142.stm

increasing retainment age to 67,My point - not every country in Europe is doing that and not as fast as Tusk's government,
Anyway I have no time or will to closely investigate pension system and conditions in all countries in Europe.
In Poland who kicked out about three millions predominately young people there hardly any jobs for senior citizens. Not for gross of them anyway - what is a sense then in increasing the retirement age? apart form gov saving monies ? that its own bloody fault if they are broke.

Average life expectancy is about 7 years lower in Poland than in the UK for males - I don't have to spell for you what that means, do I?

In the UK you can make your own arrangements as to retirement funds. That 67 (the state pension)concerns mostly those who couldn't afford to secure their own arrangements.

I would guess that about 40% in the UK and about 80% in Poland relay solely on the state pension.
Anyway I think that is not necessity is just another con by the European ruling class to hide their incompetence and greed.
The point I want to make is that Polish government is eager to implement that change afford their own selfish reasons noting to do with necessity or wellbeing of the country nor is citizens.

Ironside: I did not care for this topic, but I really do not like your stupid personal attacks, like this:


or to quote you from another thread:


Now, here is a little payback - you are a little illiterate liar and manipulator from some old School of Abuse. You even do not know how to read your own data, which you posted in link to your message #271. Incidently, this is almost two years old data, published on 2010-06-24.

Below are some excerpts from your link, which show that one country in Europe is already at (67, 67) level (Norway), one is there for the private sector (Iceland) and three (Denmark, Germany and The Netherlands) are going the same route as Poland. Plus Australia, and USA in OECD. But your data is old and inaccurate. Both Denmark and Germany have already such laws, enacted correspondingly in 2006 and in January 2012. Adding Sweden, where retirement age of 67 has become a societal norm, Poland is actually the sixth country that passed the law of the (67, 67) retirement statutory level.

Excerpts from 2010 data, posted by Ironside: Retirement ages: OECD Countries, format: (men's retirement age, women's retirement age):
Australia: now (65,63) => (65, 65) in 2014 => (67, 67) from 2017-2023 in stages
Denmark: now (65,65) => (67,67) staring with 2017. Inaccurate, see below
Germany: now (65, 65) => (67, 67) in stages 2012-2029
Iceland: now (65,65) for public sector, BUT (67, 67) for private sector
The Netherlands: now (65, 65) => planned to go to (67, 67)
Norway: now (67, 67)
USA: now (66, 66) => (67, 67) in stages from 2013


No Mister Pinokio. You are not only a liar, but you are also doubly illiterate. Your data was two years old, but there is new data available, which you either ignored or you could not comprehend it. All countries in European Union and elsewhere go through the process of rising the retirement age. Most countries aim to raise the pension age gradually, either in a medium or long-term horizon. Depending on their current status, their government staying power, and other social factors the final target ranges between 62 and 69. The (67, 67) retirement seems to be a typical target for at least 12 countries besides Poland.

Now, let me update the above list by some 2012 data.
Slovakia: now (62,60) => (62, 62) by 2024
Romania: now (63,58) => (63, 63) by 2030
Lithuania: now (62.5, 60) => (65, 65) by 2026
Estonia: now (63, 61.5) => (65, 65) by 2026
Latvia: now (62, 62) => (65, 65) by 2021
Hungary: now (62, 62) => (65, 65) by 2024
Italy: now (57, 57) => (66, 66) by 2018
Proposal (not finalized) to extend retirement age by one month every four months until targets for men and women are reached at some time in the future:

+ Bulgaria: now (63, 60) => (65, 63) for majority but (67,67) for those without minimum work years by (2020, 2040)
+ Czech Republic: (62, 56-60) => (67, 67) by (2020, 2040)
+ Spain: now (65, 65) => (67, 67) by 2020
+ France: now (62, 62) => (67, 67) by 2022
UK: now (65, 60) => (68, 68) by 2044-2046
Ireland: now (65, 65) => (68, 68) by 2028
Germany: now (65, 65) => (67,67) by 2029. Law as January 2012. There are dscussion to extend it even to (69, 69)
Denmark: now (65, 65) => (67, 67) between 2024-2027 (According to 2006 law)
Iceland: now (65,65) for public sector, BUT (67, 67) for private sector
Turkey: now (43, 38) => (65, 65) by 2048
Croatia: now (65, 60) => (65, 65) by 2030
The Netherlands: now (65, 65) => (66, 66) by 2020 => (67, 67) by 2025
Norway: now (67, 67)
Sweden: now no fixed retirement age. But the age of 67 has become a societal norm when retirement
should take place,
eu-employment-observatory.net/resources/reviews/EEOReview-ActiveAgeing-2012.pdf


So why did you open your filthy mouth, criticizing Pawian for inaccuracy, in the first place?
So you are really a waste of time.

===============
Some extra data follows.
Austria: now (65, 60) ==> (65, 65) by 2033
eu-employment-observatory.net/resources/reviews/Austria-EPPAA-Feb2012-final.pdf

UK: now (65, 60) => women RA will rise to 65 by 2018, both to (66,66) in 2020, reaching (67, 67) in 2026
thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-1679780/New-state-pension-age-retirement-dates-calculator.html

Italy: now (57, 57) => (62-63.5, 62-63.5) in 2012 => (66, 66) in 2018
iuslaboris.com/files/documents/Public%20Files/Newsflashes/2012_newsflashes/2012_01_news-flash-italian-labour-reform-what-will-the-new-year-bring.pdf

Canada: now (65,65) => planning (67, 67) starting in 2023, according to the newest budget
moneysense.ca/2012/03/29/budget-reveals-plan-to-raise-retirement-age-to-67

actionnewsjax.com/news/world/story/Walesa-says-todays-Solidarity-deserves-a-beating/B1VdDxTqm02jWg76kEyYdQ.cspx?rss=4

to be honest sweetie I don't care what you have to say about me. I come to conclusion some time ago that you are just an idiot. Your political stance is idiotic, your opinions are biased.

Today I learned that you are unable to draw conclusions from given data.

Next time.

The trouble is everybody knows it except for him(:

LOL ! You are an ignorant, who clearly doesn't have any clue what labor productivity is all about.

No, darling, I can easily prove that YOU are ignorant about Polish matters.

The efficiency in Poland, lower than in well-developed countries, has been a problem for many years, despite it constant rise since 1989. Poland - 67%, Germany - 106%, Luxemburg -178% of European average.

And in case you have problems with understanding the relation between efficiency (which you call productlivity) and wages/salaries, I advise you to read a few articles about it.

If you know Polish enough, you can start with this text, just excellent for simpletons:

OK, "darling", go for it !


Yes, that's obvious.


Now please kindly explain that part about "us" losing too much time at work. I hope to hear from you soon !

Sooner than you thought:

Is that all what you can spout on the issue?

If yes, it is pathetic, indeed. Are you an ignorant?

Grzesiu, what is wrong with you? You got lost in life or something?

But unfortunately you didn't explain anything. Please tell what you ment by losing time at work. Thank you in advance.

Do I really need to explain such things? It is explained in the article. 67% compared to 178%.

OK, if you need a simpler explanation, here you are:


managernaobcasach.pl/aktualnosci/gospodarka/1451-co-polacy-robia-w-pracy-czyli-rzecz-o-firmowych-obibokach.html

I wonder what you will say to it.

An honorable guy, according to the pre-war honour code, would apologise and then shoot oneself. :):):):)

Are you such a guy? :):):):)

If yes, you should know that I was joking about the killing part. Apology will be enough.