Achievements of the Tusk's Polish government

Yes... and in your opinion that's due to a fact that Polish employees "lose too much time at work", are lazy etc. Right ?

Sorry, if you can`t understand Polish in the article from my link, it is your problem. I am not going to translate it for you.

How about shooting yourself after all, to spare us time and trouble? :):):):)

Now it is cristal clear that you are a total ignorant. Go read a definition of labor productivity and stop make an idiot out of yourself.

Nope. I know what I am talking about. And you also know it because I don`t suppose you are really so stupid. You just prefer to play childish games, because you are unable to run a rational discussion.

Another link, this time in English. I hope you will be able to read that data.

stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LEVEL

PS. I just remembered you support Korwin Mikke and advocate his economic ideas here. I understand now why he boasts 1% support from voters at each elections. :):):):):)

Hmm now I'm afraid it's not only a matter of ignorance... but I will try to help you anyway... go and check labor productivity in China... are they "losing too much time at work" too in your opinion ?

Witam!

Very interesting but please do not copy what you find on the net without checking accuracy and compare what is comparable - one cannot compare retirement in Western countries, where most retirees have comfortable life with what happens for instance in Poland where most retirees live in big poverty.

I am French and I can talk about my country. The retirement age (currently 60 for both men and women) shall go up to 62 or remain at 60 in certain cases (those who started working at an early age).

As to Poland (where I live) putting retirement age at 67 is completely absurd and only motivated by ultra liberal ideology. Not only most Poles at that age, if still alive, look like ruins but also the labor market does not enable to keep workers longer as there is no work. Officially the unemployment rate is close to 14% (higher than the average in UE) and how much would it be if those millions of Poles did not flee their country for bread?

At the age of 40, it is hard to be hired so after 60??????

Those politicians don't know anything about labor market. They just aim at getting rid of retirement but are too coward to say it so they postpone and postpone the age so no one or almost no one shall get anything.They want to have it like in 3rd world, the family shall take care of the seniors and if family cannot or if no family, we'll die of hunger on the street.

I can see that in a lot of countries, people are starting to react, they vote for radical parties and I believe it's only the beginning - more and more people are fed up. In Poland, just to mention the retirement age put to 67, people are reacting and so much the better :)

If you refer to my post, #274, I stand by my numbers (more or less, barring some mistakes). But that post was not about what's good and what's bad for the people, but about data manipulating by some members here. I never said anywhere that I was supporting the new pension reform in Poland.


That's definitely right. I'd love to be a retiree in France. :-)

However....


On October 27, 2010, France's parliament granted final approval to a bill increasing the minimum retirement age progressively from 60 to 62 until 2018, and the age for full benefits from 65 to 67. Sarkozy signed it in November 2010. That's your current law.

[Hollande was just elected on a promise of lowering the retirement age from 62 down to 60 years old. We will see when and how he does it.]

And could you explain this little full benefits clause? What I understand is this: you can retire, if you wish at the age of 62 (60), but you will not get full benefits until you are 67(65) years old. Is that right?

So should not we rather talk about early retirement age - 62 and normal retirement age - 67 instead? Those are the terms used in various publications, such as this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement . So why to hide the truth?

So what's the difference between this and new Polish retirement age law? According to this, Poles can elect early retirement too: women at 62 with 35 years seniority, men at 65 and 40 years seniority. With half the full pension, which is crazy of course, but they can do that. :-(

But:

In France, in the private sector (as opposed to special retirement plan for government-owned corporations), aside from minimum age of 67(65), you also need the minimum number of years of contribution to the retirement fund in order to receive full pension, which is what - 40 years?

In Poland (ignoring certain privileged professions here - police, mining, etc.) one would be entitled to a minimum pension, only if he/she demonstrates 25 years of insurance seniority, which is a sum of work seniority and periods of sick pays.

Currently the minimum pension is set at very low level of 800 zł; 1500 zł would be more adequate, as most polled Poles think. But that's another story...

And one more thing:


This argument is moot, because it all depends on professions. For example, in prosperous Canada, where I live, the chance to be hired by a private company as an average programmer at the age of 35, is close to nil - unless one is a top consultant in some specialized field. There is one reason only: young people are much cheaper, less self assured and less demanding.

Comparing France vs. Poland on this score:
Employment rate of 60-64 age group, 2010: France 18%, Poland 20%, EU average %30, Germany 40%, Sweden 60%

Yes, there are many good incentives and many countries, including France and Poland, implement them for better and for worse. I think this is the main issue regarding the retirement reform, not the retirement age. This is where the main efforts should be directed. But that's the different story...

I am afraid that your request also refers to you. You read posts without checking the real message and as a result you draw wrong conclusions.


You should go back to those posts which inform readers that the retirement reform in Poland is going to start in 2013 and last till 2040.

Therefore, such claims as


might sound valid today but in 2040 they will most probably be completely useless.


Yes, quite possible, but they have money with which they hire experts to predict what is going to happen in the nearest and distant future.

One piece of advice - don`t be so focused on today. You should also look into future.

PS. Grześ, sorry, I can`t read your last post because I decided to put you on ignore. Talking to you is senseless - a complete waste of time. You are like your boss - an economic conman and pretender. Bye, bye. :):):):):)

Witam!

Ok, I had omitted that it would be gradual but I can tell you that most Poles are against it.

As to France, what was decided under sarkozy shall not apply - most people are even against retiring at 62 and the current government shall take care of it in a few months so what is on the net specially from foreign sources is irrelevant (Anglosaxon media are reputed for reporting wrong things about the French or France) but never mind we are concerned about Poland.

Personally I don't mind working until death if my health let me but who shall hire me when I'm .... 65 ? ;). When we read ads for ex secretaries in Poland, we realize that past let's say 32, women are considered "too old" ;).

Also, if leaving people at work until they are very old (most of them are totally improductive), what about the younger ones? If there were jobs for everybody, it would be different and soon we'll have the son and grandson fighting with his father and grandfather over work ;).

Like I said, it's purely ideology and not pragmatic. Do Tusk and co. know what goes on in the real world? Nope!

Personally I'm not concerned all the more as I'll get a French retirement (= very good income in Poland) but I feel sorry for the Poles. The government claims that Poland is so rich but they let most people in hardship. Old people in Poland usually look like wrecks, have very poor health so working until 67 does not make any sense.

PS: here again DO NOT compare France and Poland

In France, when people lose their jobs at age like 56, they are not expected to look for work since unless a miracle, nobody shall hire them and they are paid from special State funds until they start getting their retirement and as a result few people in their late fifties work but contrary to what happens in Poland, people in France receive decent money from State.

You cannot compare a country like Poland with Western Europe or other developed countries. Poland although the government claims it's miraculous (but Poland could develop only because of Western money - investors (they are for instance 700 French companies) +UE (Poland is the country receiving the most money from the UE whereas contributing to almost 0)). Poland is very far behind and probably shall always be.

Yes, of course, it is natural. I know my compatriots. P:):):):)


Do you wanna bet your new government won`t do anything about it? :):):):)


Yes, I agree, Tusk and PO are not pragmatic. Instead of flattering people to make sure they will be voted for at next elections, they are introducing the reform what has an immediate negative result in recent polls.

Yes, probably Tusk and co. don`t know what is going on in the real world but they know what is going to happen in Poland in the future.

Let me present a link to a site where you may learn that by 2050 Poland will have lost a few million workforce due to deteriorating demographics.

knaw.academia.edu/MargaPeeters/Papers/1331546/A_global_view_on_demographic_pressure_and_labour_market_participation

Therefore, such claims



might be valid today but most probably will be completely useless in 2040. Experts alarm that due to tragic workforce shortages, even 75 year old secreteries will be looked for by employers.

All in all:
My second piece of advice to you (in different words and in bold, in case you didn`t understand the first piece): stop being so concentrated on the present, think about the future too. Carpe diem is a nice attitude to adopt by an individual but very dangerous to the overall prosperity of the country.

Pawian, 2050? Are you crazy? I refuse to suffer today because some decades from now, "maybe", just "maybe", it bring something good. Because it never does. Whatever profit my today's hadrship would bring, it will be, without any doubt, wasted by government anyway. Politicians have the infinite ability to sqander resources. So better we consume it today, instead of leting the government to waste it tomorrow.

Anyway, no one I know is going to vote for PO ever again. Even people who hate PiS, Palikot and so on, intend to go to vote against PO. For whom we'll vote it is a secondary matter, at best.

That is very selfish of you. Stop being so egoistic. Think about your country. Don`t you love Poland?


As I said, the policy of carpe diem is exciting, but harmful in the long run.


Probably, you know the wrong people. Don`t worry - one day you will meet the right ones.

To help you recognise them more easily:



Law and Justice Party won the most votes among voters with basic schooling and vocational education . Voters with secondary and post-secondary education , as well as licencjaci and higher educated in the majority voted for the PO - according to data from TNS for TVP and TVN 24 .

We "wykształciuchy" are giving up on PO just about now. But how would you know, when all your knowlage about Poland comes from TV and newspapers...


I will fight for it, and die if necessary, but I will not starve for it. And most certainly do not sacrifice my wellbeing in order to give bunch of politicians more money to steal.

Nope. "The Educated" will always stick to PO. :):):):)

Why?

Because they are intelligent. And they perfectly realise what PiS and other "uneducated" forces might do to Poland if they take power again, God forbid.


:):):):)

You forgot magazines and the radio. :):):):)

LOL ! Dude, you've proved to be a total economic ignorant, who doesn't understand the very basic economic terms. The funniest thing is that you still think the main difference in labor productivity between nations is because in one people are more hard working than in other. Typical wykształciuch :))

BTW you can stick your pathetic private messages into... your red one :):):):):)

You have to remember that what you are describing is the present situation, but in 15-20 years time what is fact and reality now will be very different from today. Just to give you an illustration, compare Poland to how it looked like 20 years ago, and think how it will look like 20 years from now.


Well actually it closer to 12% to be exact indexmundi.com/poland/unemployment_rate.html

Eternal Polish dilemma:
Norwid said: Poles are a great nation, but hopeless society.




Well said.


Aliens?


Hague, let`s stop for a while because we might be accused of mobbing...... :):):):)

Yes I wouldn't want to get caught mobbing by anyone(:

But I can`t refrain replying. :):

Besides, today is a new day. :) Co było a nie jest nie pisze się w rejestr - Passed things belong to the past.


That is why France`s public debt is going to hit 87% GDP this year.

expatica.com/fr/news/french-news/french-public-debt-to-hit-87-of-gdp-in-2012-report_178293.html

Poland - 56.4% in 2011 and is going to drop to 53.7 in 2012.

wbj.pl/article-59059-polish-public-debt-growth-expected-to-be-at-record-low-this-year.html

So, your decent money from the State is simple borrowing from future generations. One may say that your children and grandchildren are sponsoring you.

Well, not a bad idea. After all, you put substantial effort and money into bringing them up. :)

Warszawette, in case you accused me of mobbing, let me show you that I am also able and ready to agree with you:


I earnestly hope so!!

But we must stop "wasting too much time at work" :)))))))

Pawian! I have more interesting things than teaching you about France, a country that you hate and that obsesses you, all the more as this site is called "Polishforums" but I need to conclude to mend your ignorance. As to people receiving - decent - money if not working, they do so because(a lot of) money is taken out each month from paychecks = insurance and therefore the money does NOT come from the State (my vocabulary mistake, przepraszam, but in the French language, this word is used a lot). But never mind!

And please stop comparing France and Poland - France is rich country (5th economy in the world, only the US, China, Japan, and in Europe: Germany are in front and all the other countries are behind and Poland very far behind and shall always be). France is also a key to international politics (is a permanent member at the UN's security council) whereas Poland does not exist. Poland's development is only due to foreign money (huge Western companies, among whom 700 from France and since 2004: UE money (Poland is the main recipient of UE funds whereas Poland pays about 1.5% to UE budget (Germany: biggest payer and France being just second and with what pays Britain, we have a total of over 49%). Poland has no economy per se since everything is in foreign hands. Poland is de facto a colony and not able to be on their own. Besides, people in Poland rely a lot on credit and I personally fear that what happened in Spain does happen in Poland very shortly. People take credits for up to 40 years to buy apartments and what if they lose their jobs? When out of work, people in Poland gets nothing or a couple of peanuts for a very limited time and it is very scary.

To conclude instead of comparing oranges and apples, you need to compare Poland with similar countries (Czech Rep., Slovakia, Hungary....).

I assume that you are writing from the USA or Canada and therefore very far away from Europe:

I happen to live in Pl (not my choice, family reasons) and I am not sharing the Polish government's excitement because I see that situation is very weak in Poland and that most people are in poor shape (society is very unequal, just like those in Thirld World countries). Because also due to Euro crisis and right now with Greece, Poland shall suffer a lot since banks (also involved in Greece) here are mainly western capital owned and already the zl has gone down to the euro (to dollar, I don't know because not concerned). Polish so called "wealth" is very temporary and on top of that Polish population is shrinking (emigration, low birth rate, low life expectancy especially for men....)

KONIEC

In no more than 30 years your people will work on our fields. Why ? We're simply better as a society, better educated, more intelligent, more hard working and so on. You are "richer" due to historical reasons but times are changing, now faster than ever before.


No it isn't... to put it very mildly :)))

But it was you who started comparing. :):):):)



Yes, that is why you should give this thread a break for a while so that people from countries similar to Poland have their chance. :):):):):)


No, I am writing from Poland, but according to you it is still very far away from Europe. :):):):) So, it doesn`t matter to you, I suppose, where I am writing from.

Will it be OK if I move to France and write from there? :):):)


That must be horrible experience for you. :):):)


Not Fin?

nah he's French...

I don't know which "official rate" you are talking about, probably offiacially issued by you, but nevermind.
Eurostat data for march 2012 show that unemployment rate in Poland is 10,1%, in France 10%, in EU 27 countries 10,2.


...and we shall see ;)



everyday you learn something new...
... and not true:


Fear not! Poland have a much better situation in regard to personal debt than France:)
Again eurostat:




as pawian already pointed - you started.
Looks like you not only don't pay attention to other posts but also your very own posts. How about some reading comprehension training?


Promise?

Curiosity killed the cat....

OK, Grześ, you are off the hook. I am too curious. What if you write sth funny and I miss it? :):):):)

So, what did you write?


Aaaa, now I know what you mean! Yes, I was too fast.

But that wasn`t such a funny mistake for you to laugh at it for two pages.

Or was, after all? :):):):)

You got that right but it is a waste of time to talk to the members of the league. They are fine therefore everything is grand and will be even better.


Empty coffers - its given government billion zloty a year.

you precede the reputation of your countrymen as the most arrogant, I am glad that you are staying true to type, personally I don't like when people stray from type.

you too?
Better society ? Care to elaborate ?

Witam!

Pawian! How many millions of Poles abroad za chleba? The Polish government hides real unemployment figures by emigration. Sorry but unemployed Westerners don't need to go abroad and at home they can live, eat and expect some results.

A country (like Poland) from where millions of people have no choice but to go abroad for survival - in most cases, to take the jobs the locals don't want is NO success ;). On the country, North Americans and Western European don't come to Poland for bread.....

Good day!