Stereotypes about Polish people being stupid?

What group doesn't help the other, Mr. Wiech? Germans help Germans, Poles help Poles etc..

While to a large extent it is true that Eastern Europeans for instance tend to use more black-market
trickery aka bribery to get jobs than perhaps the average Swede or Brit, don't forget that before the Sicilian mob in America, it was the Irish (Boss Tweed etc.) who taught the US the meaning of pull:-)

What do you mean "worry" about stereotypes? It's not only that some Americans can't find their own country on a map of the world, most couldn't even identify POLAND on a world map at first glance without at least some coaching:

Newscaster: As you can see, (using a pointer)....
Assistant: Ahemm. you're pointing to Finland,....now you're in Russia,...THERE!!
Now you're in Poland!

LOL

Ah, the N.B.A. (National Basketball Association) where Blacks out number Whites 10:1 or the Olympics Games or Kenya's marathon runners or say the fastest man ever recorded on the face of the earth Usain Bolt from Jamaica.

Perhaps it would be easier for you to disprove (with sources) these true FACTS that you rudely refer to as racist claptrap.
This alone should prove that Polish people are not the stupid ones when they are challenged by such givens.

...the fastest RECORDED human....
:-)

Statistically, there are no fewer non-Jewish chess grandmasters than Jewish:-)
Some chess mavens, both Jewish and gentile, have contended that in sheer number of games won vs. number of new strategies invented, Alexander Alekhine (a Russian non-Jew!!) may have been the most successful chess player of all time.

In short, stereotypes are based upon according to which yardstick we measure such perception, and nothing else.

No, what I said was:



That could be debated as the facts blow that theory right out of the water.

I've never heard one in the past 20 years, and I also didn't come across any openly derogatory remark about Poles or Poland in the media during that time.


I have no idea where you get this from, but here on the West Coast nobody blames Poles for anything publicly or cares about its communist regime in the 1960's. It's a non-issue, simple as that. Outlets like the Polish American Journal make this nonsense up, it seems.

You know, long, long time ago I read an interview with Andrzej Wajda in "Wysokie Obcasy" (it means "high heels").

"Wysokie Obcasy" is Gazeta Wyborcza's women's extra - very tolerant, feministic, etc. - I'm mentioning this so you wouldn't assume it must be some nationalist rag.

Andrzej Wajda is a highly renowned film director, state decorated, four of Wajda's works were nominated for Oscars, he was also awarded an honorary Oscar, he got the Golden Lion in Venice and the Golden Bear in Berlin for lifetime achievements. He also got Palme d'Or in Cannes and César in Paris and other awards like Felix and Kyoto.

He isn't an anti-Semite. If he was, I don't think he would make a film like "Korczak" with one scene that makes me cry every time I see this film. I also doubt Steven Spielberg would write a letter to the American Academy of Motion Picture Art and Sciences in support of Wajda getting an Oscar for lifetime achievements and call "Korczak" "one of the most important European pictures about the Holocaust" if he was one. Wajda is also regarded in Poland as a film director debunking Polish national myths (Polish right-wingers don't like him as far as I've noticed).

The interview I mentioned was a set of answers to a questionnaire made by some famous philosofer or sth, it was a regular column on "Wysokie Obcasy" with famous Polish people answering questions about their childhood, their greatest successes, failures, things they were ashamed of, proud of, things like that. I don't remember what the question was about but Wajda told about why his Oscar nominated film "The Promised Land" based on a Polish novel written by a Nobel awarded writer Władysław Reymont wasn't shown in the US (maybe Wajda mentioned this as his "greatest disappointment"). He said that a Jewish businessman bought out the rights to the film and prevented it from being shown in American cinemas because he thought the film was... anti-Semitic :)

"The Promised Land" was written in 1899 and it's about three close friends and ruthless young industrialists: a Pole, a German and a Jew making business together in multicultural Łódź. I don't think I've seen the film and I've only read fragments of the book, but I've never heard about it being anti-Semitic lol The story is set in the times contemporary to the author so he obviously described the existing anti-Semitism (I remember a scene in which a male character observes or is following a Jewish woman as he fancies her and has a dilemma because he thinks it wouldn't be appropriate for someone of his stature, or whatever, to get involved with a Jewess, if I remember correctly). I think it would be difficult to write about those times and omit such things completely.

So I guess some kind of anti-Polish sentiment must have come into play or some radical oversensitiveness on the part of that Jewish businessman. Either way, all you needed was one rich guy to put down an Oscar nominated film. On the other hand probably only one Jewish director was needed, namely Steven Spielberg, to promote Andrzej Wajda to an Oscar for lifetime achievements so, in a way, justice has been done, I guess ;) However, an opportunity to promote some Polish culture was missed at that time.

I think it was probably the first time I was introduced to the notion that "Jews abroad don't like us (especially the American ones, apparently)" and that the stereotype about us is that we're anti-Semitic.

TheOther, often when I read articles about Poland/Poles at English-speaking Jewish/Israeli sites (or not even necessarily Jewish ones, sometimes it's enough that's an American one, I guess) there are a lot of comments in the spirit of "Oh, Poland is like this...", "Oh, Poles are like that...", "My grandma/mum told me they were worse than the Nazis", etc. etc. no matter what the article is about lol

I also remember reading some American article or an interview with an American or American Jew/Jewess saying that both Poles and Jews are to some extent still in denial about their mutual prejudice towards each other (the author or the person interviewed was giving examples of his own personal interactions).

There was even one Israeli on PF who wrote that "anti-Polonism" in Israel was discussed in Israeli media. I can easily believe that generally people in Israel nowadays don't know, care or think much about Poland or Poles, the same probably goes for the US or wherever. However, I think that in the past the anti-Polish sentiment could be pretty strong and probably it still is among some people of Jewish descent (it's passed down from one generation to another in some cases just like "Polish anti-Semitism") and I think it's natural, considering the long, complicated and difficult history of Jews in Poland. It isn't good, of course, but it's understandable. Maybe it will take years before it gets "out of the system" completely.

Btw, I've often seen Russians complaining about how they are portrayed in Hollywood films and that they're almost exclusively villans, but they were usually putting it down to general Western Russophobia rather than anti-Russian sentiment among Jews in Hollywood or the media, as far as I remember.

I say Poles doesn't help each other much.


BTW what you wanted to say, do you have a point?

boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=577677


Fair enough. Throughout the American mainstream that may well be the case. But Polonian papers and groups are focused on Polish-related issues which the average person isn't even aware of. Recently there was a protest by young Jews outside the Polish consulate:

jta.org/2016/05/05/news-opinion/world/jewish-high-schoolers-picket-polish-consulate-in-ny-to-protest-holocaust-whitewashalte

Such incidents may not get much play in the mainstream media but they go on the whole time.

Oh, you're very much mistaken, Panie Wiechu!

Poles, as with the rest of those from formerly Communists aka Black Market countries, do indeed help one another through bribery (łapówki) and favor trading, just like those from the Old Silk Road:-)

Please, don't insult our intelligence.

What do you mean by help? I'm talking about helping not about black market deals, what it has to do with helping?


Americans don't have intelligence.Clinton prove it, and those people too

As I mailed you shortly ago, you clearly misunderstood (either unintentionally or on purpose) my post! By definition, helping someone through whatever means necessary entails some sort of pull or bribery, face it!

If Poles, Russians and others in the Black Market didn't work slightly less than kosher deal making, they wouldn't have survived! Honest?
Of course there are honest and trustworthy Poles, Russians etc., only during the Cold War, honesty didn't get you very far:-)

This doesn't mean that being crooked is somehow part of the Polish DNA any more than murderous anti-semitism and slavish devotion to order is intrinsically German (although many have tried to prove that it is!), does it?

Possibly, as with certain others on PF, your English skills might not be up to the job, so kindly admit to a communication glitch and I'd be happy to write more simply next time.

I think I undrestand you good enough. You're trying to sound smart, witty and learned at the same time, hence glitch, you're an American and you have no clue. Black market wasn't/isn't a charity or help, its bussiness. Yes, you're trying to turn it around to make some kind of pun to show your knowledge and learing - you're brilliant! bravo! cheer, aplause, flowers and conffettii.


Could you? Please! You have mail.

"I think I undersTOOd you WELL enough......"

Thinking is not knowing!:-))

"....you're an American and have no clue."

But you have I suppose, Mr. Wiech the Brilliant??!

"You have MY E-mail ADDRESS."

Yes, I have.

Sorry to correct your English. It's a messy job, by someone's got to do itLOL

About Poles and Poland comparing to you? YES! YES! You're the brilliant one - aplause, conffetti, crowd going crazy - bravo Lyzko!


Knock yourselfs silly, I don't mind. lol!

Nighty night!

Back on topic please

Back to the thread topic, it seems to me that stupidity vs. intelligence is again largely culture based, indeed a learned phenomenon. As Poland, compared, say, with Germany, England, France, or the United States, industrialized more slowly (owing to among other factors her severe losses during various wars, therefore a considerable financial deficit in her national coffers!), the perception abroad had often been that Poland aka Poles were a backwater lot, sluggish, lazy, loutish and drunken, lacking the native intelligence to perfect an infrastructure as in the above countries heretofore mentioned.

Interestingly, many Western Europeans in particular had frequently voiced the same observations concerning Africa, as a primitive continent which could never prosper, e.g. according to European standards.

Poland developed an inferiority complex, since the common shibboleth was that the only way she could progress would necessarily be through outside help, as he was allegedly incapable of providing for herself.

Well, Copernicus, Łobaczewski, Madame Curie, Kazimir Funk and a host of other talented scientists proved the naysayers dead wrong!!

Many interesting points. All avoid the truth: Poles built the pyramid of Cheops and set the world into a jealous rage. Historical fact . Inside the secret chamber is a white eagle on a red papyrus scroll. This is what all the excavations are about. To destroy evidence.

@ Americans having no put downs for Hungarians and Slovacs? = = "BoHunks".
@ Cavalry charge WWII = Advanced mounted scouts - Observed Germans resting in a cops; had overtaken their armour and waited for it. Poles remounted and charged and destroyed the Krauts. Passed out of the trees to regroup. Just then, the tanks showed up. The scouts took off. There were no Bieganski amongst them. Maybe the one who was shot. This was bad news for German moral. German Propaganda Ministry made a good job of this embarrassment. Made a film to show in cinemas: ''Look at these stupid Polacks. How dumb they are to attack mighty German power with sabres and lances''.[ Lances were used during public displays, only] This news film was shown all over Germany.

@Churchills Propaganda Office used this German film to get the British to join the armed forces. "See how the desperate, Brave Poles are fighting for their freedom? Bashing machinery with swords!" As always, people just accept the old refried muck as repeated in lazy MSM.

@ Dumb Polacks in America = @ 1900, desperate immigrants, no lingo, no job, no home, little money that ran out quickly in the high cost New World, [by old world standards]. And THE SHARKS. Everywhere the Anglo SHARKS. Promising much, delivering nothing. Dumb they were not; desperate they were. Easy pray = overworked, under paid and sacked on the spot.

@ More bad vibes: the Jews came with the Christians. Tribal, shrewd and always, and always pointing their fingers at their """country men"""", the Polish, for anything the tribe was accused of.

@US MSM, TV all Jewish owned. Norman Lear = JEW = his finger pointing ;All in the family
@ US Press = Jew article writers-guaranteed sly put-downs of Poland.
@ IQ = also depends on nutrition. @ 1990. before, IQ = 104, after, IQ 87. then up - 100+
[Can't be bothered file searching]. Something happened in Poland to restrict nourishment.
@ALimIrzA=if Paki/Hind=all sweet love-talk and smiles whilst low in numbers; then hate!

Sometimes a work of art not meant to be antisemitic in the original context can still have an antisemitic effect to a different audience in a different time. So I don't know if that businessman was wrong. But I think I'll go look for that book in the library now.

In short if that suits a Jew or some Jews.

Yes, my point was that not only Poles complain about how they're portrayed in the West.


I've seen a documentary (probably on sth like National Geographic or Discovery Channel) about an African-American athlete who was tracking his roots and was trying to find out why African-Americans excel at sports. According to this documentary it was due to slave trade. The most fit slaves were bought, obviously, and later on... they were bred like animals... to get even more fit and stronger slaves - the best exemplars of male slaves were forced to "mate" with the best exemplars of female slaves (so, women were basically raped). Also, African-Americans in the US are apparently prone to diabetes because of the slave trade - traders were feeding slaves with high glycemic foods so they would put on weight fast and cheaply before putting them on sale.


Well, that's an interesting point but the same could be said about anything relating to Poles in any film, book, play, painting, etc.
For example, some people in Poland claimed that film "Ida" is just going to reinforce the stereotype of Poles-anti-Semites-mudering-Jews in the West and that it shouldn't get an Oscar (and some others claimed that it will reinforce a stereotype of communist-Pole-hating-Jews in Poland). The same was said by some Poles about German TV series "Our Mothers, Our Fathers". I can imagine what was said by Russians about the film "A Woman in Berlin" (about Soviet rapes in Berlin).

I could go on and on like this. It could lead to some complete absurdity... I've seen a lovely Israeli film at a Polish film channel titled "Wypełnić pustkę" (org. title: "Lemale et ha'halal") about Hasidic community in Israel. For me the film was interesting, warm and charming but I bet an anti-Semite would find something in it to hate on the Jews - after all, a young woman is pressured into a marriage and one could assume that Hasidic men are alcoholics because one of the men gets drunk at least twice lol In fact, probably one could find something negative in every Israeli film I've seen in Poland (because Jews are humans and they ain't perfect, I guess lol) and if some businessman would think that those films will make people more anti-Semitic and bought the rights to distribution of these films in Poland I wouldn't be able to watch anything made in Israel lol

So, my point is - people are different, they have different views and levels of oversensitiveness, so who is to decide what people should see and what they shouldn't see?

Should art be censored?


I would say that if the film wasn't meant to be antisemitic in the original context then that businessman was wrong.
I don't think I've seen it but I really doubt there was any ill intent on the part of Wajda, not only judging by his track record but also judging by what he said in an interview even before filming "The Promised Land":

"This special Polish-German-Jewish conglomerate of Łódź at that time is immensely interesting, it hits you with colours, diversity, customary variety of characters and behaviours. But I think that on the screen - and here I'm counting on the actors - great, rich characters will be portrayed; I'd like the viewers to be more interested in their actions than their ethnicity."

Quote source: lodz.wyborcza.pl/lodz/1,35153,19638794,zmarl-andrzej-zulawski-to-on-namowil-wajde-na-ziemie-obiecana.html

And anyway, buying out the rights to an Oscar nominated film (if it was so "anti-Semitic" then why it was nominated in the first place, right? lol) to prevent it from being shown in the cinemas seems like a very drastic step to me o_O I don't know how anti-Semitic or anti-Polish a film or a book would have to be for me to agree with something like that...


Well, at least I got someone to read a Polish book lol But will you be able to find it in Israel? What if some Polish businessman bought it out from every library in Israel because it was showing Poles as anti-Semites? ;)

In all seriousness though, those fragments that I read got me interested and since then I was planning to read it too. The film is apparently a bit different than the book though so I'll try to watch it too if I have a chance and maybe I'll report on it some day on PF.

you are wrong Poles don't help Poles - solidarity among Poles is very low -

It's probably seen best in the pathetic attitude towards volunteering - Poland's rates are the lowest (or second lowest) in the EU, and it's nearly impossible to engage anyone over the age of 25 or under 18 in social causes.

Any idea why this is?

Lyzko Jews are known for their solidarity and Poles not so much (even though we had Solidarity movement) - if there is bribery involved I wouldn't call it help sorry

Told him that but he is an American and doesn't have a clue but like to pretend how brilliant he is.


Ask you mama, what're u a sociologist?

I think it is a complex issue - it sure has to do with recent and not so recent history - but even though you may ridicule the idea I think it also has spiritual background i.e. what kind of souls embody in this nation for the most part

Gumishu, Poles in my experience ALWAYS help each other with jobs aka finding work through Black Market connections, intrigue and favor trading!

What worked during Communism also works today:-)

I'll let you know if I find it. But if you want another book about Lodz in that period read "The Brothers Ashkenazi" by IJ Singer (IBS's older brother). It goes through 2 generations from the 19th century through the Bolshevik revolution tracing the lives of industrialists, revolutionaries, jews, germans, russians and poles in Lodz. No character comes out all good or all bad. They're all very human.

He wrote the book in Yiddish, but it was translated to a lot of languages, probably including Polish.
Link: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracia_Aszkenazy

It goes through 2 generations from the 19th century through the Bolshevik revolution tracing the lives of industrialists, revolutionaries, jews, germans, russians and poles in Lodz.

The same place and the same time is the subject of the books: 'Ballada o Ślepym Maksie' - The Ballad of Blind Max and 'Żółta gwiazda i czerwony krzyż' - With a Yellow Star and a Red Cross: A Doctor in the Lodz Ghetto by Arnold Mostowicz.

Cool, thanks :)


Yes, it was published in Polish in Poland in 1936 in a Jewish newspaper called "Nasz Przegląd".
I found the book so I'll probably first read "The Promised Land" and then "The Brothers Ashkenazi" and I'll have two viewpoints covered :)

Btw, as for "The Promised Land" directed by Andrzej Wajda... Whenever I was looking for info about it on the internet it was usually accompanied by information that it was the second film adaptation of this book. The first one was done by Aleksander Hertz. I didn't pay much attention to it as I haven't heard about this Hertz guy nor about his adaptation before so I figured the film must be old or not very good. Then I started thinking about his surname... "Hertz... Hertz... What if he was Jewish?"

And so I googled him and... bingo!:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksander_Hertz

He was a Polish film director with Jewish roots :D He was also a film producer and a founder of the first Polish film studio called Sfinks. His adaptation took place in the 1920's though (the film was made in 1927) and he changed the ending.

Would they also consider him an anti-Semite and his film anti-Semitic in the West, I wonder? ;)
Unfortunately the film was lost, so we'll never find out... Pity...
But you gotta love this twist ;D Liev Schreiber could make a film about it :)


I think it probably has a lot to do with upbringing, what parts of brain are developed during childhood, what neuron connections are made at that time and then reinforced later on.

Russians love chess, ballet, ice skating and they excel at it - they send kids to classes, kids who are just a few years old are already ice skating.

My mum is a bookworm, for example, and she was often reading a lot of stuff to me when I was a kid to a point that I learned "Pchła Szachrajka" by Jan Brzechwa by heart when I was just a kid. When I was a teenager I loved to play chess with my younger female cousins and at some point the younger one started beating her father in chess and when our grandma killed a rooster for a Sunday chicken soup or if they found a dead rat somewhere they would analyse their intestines while everyone else was going like "Ewww, gross..." lol The younger one is now studying IT engineering (or sth of this sort, I don't even remember the name of her studies, it's all rocket science for me anyway lol) and the other cousin is lecturing biotechnology at a univeristy and is making some stuff for a cosmetics brand.

So I ended up having a more humanist mind (you can probably tell by the length of my posts lol) and my cousins have rather scientific minds.

I've discussed for quite some time with one chess grandmaster, a chess trainer and writer - he was the first Pole to brake the level of 2700 points in chess rating system (he was ranked number ten in the world at that time), he represents Poland at international competitions winning medals and stuff, in 2010 - 2014 he was a coach of the Polish national team... but, yeah, he's Russian ;)

so stupid are polish people and so proud that they know nothing. so sad go back to school, college, read a book, beg to get tons of advice from all different educated, experienced backgrounds of many...with their profession being the same, for example, Lawyer, teacher, bank manager, car mechanic, and Learn Learn Learn, ask questions, read encyclopedias if you do not have technology, go to a library, sit in on free meeting usually at a library, read the newspaper, bible, anything...:)

brainstats.com/average-iq-by-country.html