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Poles turn their backs on organised religion.


jon357 67 | 16,836
4 Feb 2021 #1
According to the article below, the Church's engagement in party politics is part of the reason. That and the stifling effect on small-town and village life.

There's no sign of the trend increasing; in fact it's growing fast. The figures are for the country as a whole; cities are becoming even more secular.

In 1989 when Communist rule ended, nearly 90% of Poles approved of the Church, according to the state-affiliated CBOS opinion poll. That figure is now 41% - the lowest since 1993.

reuters.com/article/us-poland-church-insight-idUSKBN2A30SN
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
4 Feb 2021 #2
The figures are for the country as a whole; cities are becoming even more secular.

Not only that, but people are getting incredibly angry over the amount spent on subsidising religion classes. 1.5bn PLN yearly is spent on those classes, and for example, nearly 30m PLN was spent in PoznaƄ on classes. They're a significant drain on municipal budgets, and are effectively a hidden subsidy to the church - priests and nuns are often expected to hand over a significant chunk of their earnings to the Curia.
Novichok 1 | 1,894
4 Feb 2021 #3
1.5bn PLN yearly is spent on those classes,

Poor NIM's...If you think religion is expensive, start calculating what it costs to have a society without it, starting with fatherless kids, aberrations like homosexuality, infidelity, crime, drug addiction, kids having kids...The list is endless. But I know that to NIM's it's like a candy store to a kid...
Lenka 3 | 2,445
4 Feb 2021 #4
starting with fatherless kids, aberrations like homosexuality, infidelity, crime, drug addiction, kids having kids...

Hmm, and what country doesn't have that?
Novichok 1 | 1,894
4 Feb 2021 #5
what country doesn't have that?

Dumb question gets dumb answer: they all have it.

Now what?
OP jon357 67 | 16,836
4 Feb 2021 #6
a society without it,

Are societies with it any better?
Novichok 1 | 1,894
4 Feb 2021 #7
Yes. The same way as law enforcement makes a country better. When it does not exist, you get Portland.
Religion is the last stop before you cross over from immoral to criminal. That's why we have both.
The line that separates stupid from immoral belongs to the parents to explain and unforce. That is why fatherless families are crime factories.
OP jon357 67 | 16,836
4 Feb 2021 #8
Religion is the last stop before you cross over from immoral to criminal

Secular societies don't necessarily have higher crime rates. Some very religious societies have high ones.

That's why we have both.

In Poland, religion is declining fast.
Novichok 1 | 1,894
4 Feb 2021 #9
Secular societies don't necessarily have higher crime rates.

Because they have well-functioning law enforcement. I already mentioned that.

religion is declining fast.

Because the church is no longer the only opposition to the tyranny of "communist" thugs. It's a bodyguard no longer needed.
OP jon357 67 | 16,836
4 Feb 2021 #10
well-functioning law enforcement.

And little religiosity. As I told you before.

the church .... tyranny

It favours its own kind, hence its rapid and continuing decline.
Novichok 1 | 1,894
4 Feb 2021 #11
It favours its own kind,

Own kind meaning what? People who are told not to cheat, steal, harm, kill, abort, f*ck ass, and be kind? Those people?
Lenka 3 | 2,445
4 Feb 2021 #12
Now what?

Nothing. Just wanted you to confirm religion didn't prevent any place from having all these
Novichok 1 | 1,894
4 Feb 2021 #13
I know. Not even one.
Have you heard the word reduce?

religion didn't prevent

How about core values? Or morality?
How about that what we consider immoral was derived from and codified in the Ten Commandments and, to add some real fear, in the penal codes?

Funny how it works. Because of my upbringing, I would not rape, murder, or steal - even if those were not in the American penal code.

Amazing. It must be in my DNA or bone marrow and absolutely nothing to do with my religion. Sure.
OP jon357 67 | 16,836
4 Feb 2021 #14
Own kind meaning what?

It's clear enough from the post.

having all these

Quite. Nor did it preclude morality and decent values.
Lenka 3 | 2,445
4 Feb 2021 #15
Because of my upbringing, I would not rape, murder, or steal - even if those were not in the American penal code.

And funny how I wouldn't rape, murder or steal even if it wasn't in the ten commandments.
Novichok 1 | 1,894
4 Feb 2021 #16
I wouldn't rape, murder or steal even if it wasn't in the ten commandments.

Because you were raised by the people who read them.
Crow 146 | 9,105
4 Feb 2021 #17
priests and nuns are often expected to hand over a significant chunk of their earnings to the Curia.

Classical colonial relationship.
Novichok 1 | 1,894
4 Feb 2021 #18
There is nothing colonial here. Don't like it - quit.
Poloniusz 4 | 391
5 Feb 2021 #19
the Church's engagement in party politics is part of the reason

Did anyone bother to read the OP's article from Reuters (a company founded by the son of a rabbi by the way)?

Here is the opening salvo: "Katarzyna Lipka is no longer Catholic, and she says that is a political statement."

You can bet your own life that this woman's sudden disestablishmentarian activism absolutely does not extend to all religions.







when Communist rule ended, nearly 90% of Poles approved of the Church...That figure is now 41%

And if it weren't for the Church's open engagement in politics at the time then Poland would still be crushed under the yoke of communism.

What the British OP and the British Reuters propagandists are actually seething about is that the 90% approval was a vote for Polish pride and nationalism.



While the downward slide to the 41% figure of today represents Polish rejection of EU-endorsed globalist self-debasement.


OP jon357 67 | 16,836
5 Feb 2021 #20
I wouldn't rape, murder or steal even if it wasn't in the ten commandments

Basically a legal code from the early Iron Age, among a group of nomads.

Much the same as any other ancient legal code.
OP jon357 67 | 16,836
5 Feb 2021 #21
We live in really troubling times.

One thing that will be interesting is if post-pandemic, the levels of religious observance are slightly lower than before or significantly lower than before. Evidence from that period between lockdowns is that quite a few people fell out of the habit of religious observance and did not return to it when churches opened again.
Novichok 1 | 1,894
5 Feb 2021 #22
People go to churches out of inertia and to score points they think they will need when they meet the bouncers at the Big Gate.
OP jon357 67 | 16,836
5 Feb 2021 #23
Or did. The numbers are plummeting among under 60s.
Novichok 1 | 1,894
5 Feb 2021 #24
Prosperity always does it.

All religions are based on fear. Prosperity removes it. And when you are young, you think you are made of stainless steel and that you are immortal.
rtfm 1 | 42
6 Feb 2021 #25
You are right about prosperity turning peopke away from religion. Especially the prosperity of the local priest who seems to not care about his own teachings being hugely fat, grumpy and driving around in a brand new car paid for by parishioners.

Also the church seems to be abandoning it's own views and getting increasingly woke. The current pope is a terrible figurehead.

The danger of the fall in Christianity is Islam will fill the vacuum eventually (20-30 years down the line) which would be a tragedy for Polish culture.
Ironside 50 | 10,906
6 Feb 2021 #26
his own teachings

WTF? You sound like some ignorant peasants. what teaching? huh? You confuse monks with priests. plus a car is needed for them doing properly their job. What the f A big deal about it?

I just look at people like you being shafted by governments, big corporations and all kind of scammer or commies and mostly they just roll over and take it up their backside and like it, at the same time their yapp at religion or the church.
rtfm 1 | 42
6 Feb 2021 #27
Lol, I never said there was anything wrong with the priest having a car but he doesn't need a brand new top of the range audi paid for by his elderly mostly poor parishioners when the money could better be used to help the community he serves.

So to answer your points, the church teaches good values about humility, kindess unto others, not being greedy or gluttonous. This priest is greedy, selfish and a bad Christian.

You must be blind to see how bad the current pope is as Christian leader.

Frankly, you sound more like an ignorant peasant than I with your apparent inability to conduct a civil discussion.

Also I don't know where you get the idea that I'm being shafted by anyone, commie or otherwise. I'm very comfortably well off thanks.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
6 Feb 2021 #28
You must be blind to see how bad the current pope is as Christian leader.

Actually, he's doing a great job. He's cleaning up corruption and he's returning the Church to the values promoted by Jesus.

There's a reason why young Catholics love him.
Novichok 1 | 1,894
6 Feb 2021 #29
The danger of the fall in Christianity is Islam

Like children, people crave well-defined hard limits hoping that others will observe them, too. The gooey, soft, everything goes Catholic Church will lose the fight. In some sense, the US army replicates the Church in its gooeyness and would lose with the Chinese Islam-like enemy. I mentioned this only to make the point that the moral rot is pervasive and goes beyond organized religion.

There's a reason why young Catholics love him.

They will love him even more the day he offers a six-pack and a line before mass.
Ironside 50 | 10,906
6 Feb 2021 #30
Lol, I never said there was anything wrong

Don't you understand what you are saying? Is English your mother tongue, Maybe your ability to think is in question.?
If there is nothing wrong with a priest owning a car, why mention it? Why comment about a brand of a car about money better spend and so on?

Wouldn't it be due to a fact you think THERE is something WRONG with that? huh?

This priest is greedy, selfish and a bad Christian.

Maybe, I don't know him. I wouldn't judge him by his car to be sure. A fact he has a nice car is not a sign that he is greedy.

with your apparent inability to conduct a civil discussion.

With what? I admit I have little patience for nonsense and silly bias. I have a temper you see. You on the other hand sound like a shallow weasel. A person that is a difficulty to have a civil discussion with.


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