Poles - the Nation of Liars?

Not a very good one:(
Of course you are right.

I wouldn't worry about it, they are sad losers wherever they live.


FOUR years ago..

Yes, I know - what's your point?

Very aptly put, if I may say so. I wholeheartedly agree. This is PF in a nutshell.

PLease answer me one question, why do Poles find it necessary to deny cultural and social problems that exist in PL.

THREE years ago the World Bank's office in Warsaw issued a damning report on corruption in Poland and told Polish politicians to tackle graft as "a mainstream public concern". It has belatedly got its wish. Since February Poles have been gripped by a parliamentary inquiry into allegations of high-level bribe-seeking, broadcast live on television. Might the revulsion provoked by the inquiry bring down corrupt politicians and businessmen and thus prompt a general clean-up of public life, as happened in Italy in the early 1990s? Maybe. But there is a long way to go.

economist.com/node/1722297

Lying and cheating has been a way of life in Poland, since the fall of communism, its now time for you Poles to clean up your act and stop denying the facts.

Magdalena and boletus you are both denialist's on the subject of lying and cheating being the accepted norm in Poland.

No.


actually i always do that these days, this thread is very old.

My opinion has changed a little over the years but i still stand by the original post, many Poles do lie. More so than other nations.


whats your point?

I do not think Poles lie or bribe more than other nations. Of course, they do sometimes, depending on the circs this might be rare or frequent. But neither lying nor bribery are Polish inventions. What Boletus was trying to put across in his post was the fact that many non-Polish PF users do almost nothing but denigrate Poland for faults that are normal human traits the world over. The British government is, I am completely sure, just as corrupt as the Polish one.

In other words: I can have a discussion with you about corruption in Polish politics (which is a fact) - but I will never enter a discussion about lying and bribery somehow being typical of Poland and the Polish people (which is untrue and would be racist if the Polish were of a different skin colour than you are).

Governments are the same the world over.


Do you not think its a by product of communism? The average Pole knowing that the only way get something a little better was to lie and cheat. It is getting better though, Products of society plain and simple.

The Poles do it very well though, we have the 2012 Euro overshadowed by corruption
sntonline.com/article/91062__Corruption+suspicions+overshadow+Poland+ahead+of+Euro+2012

When People outside of Poland view the country through the media, it is not a country you should do business in.

Wedle:
You completely missed both of our points. But I let it go, and this is my last answer to you in this thread, because "Wedle is never wrong" and never knows when to quit. Oops, you are not Polish, are you?

.

boletus, did you happen to accept my point. There are many goods things about Poland, unfortunately in my opinion, many Polish business people need to ' grow up to their position' instead of acting like market traders. Cheating and lying is deep rooted in the Polish community, therefore it is a very big problem and is not acceptable in todays post financial crisis world.

Please, give me examples of this cheating and lying. I particularly want to see how you came to the conclusion that it's "deep-rooted" in the Polish community specifically, as opposed to other communities.


I really love me a sweeping generalisation.

Because all Western media are always objective and never have an agenda. And, of course, they never lie?

Could you give a first hand expierience of that cheating and lying? I mean your own personal experience with Polish people lying and cheating you.

You dont even live in Poland and havent for decades, how the hell would you know whats happenening on ground level.

So many Poles like you are in total denial, i suppose youve never heard of bribing Doctors or Police either.

Even if so - how is that Polish specific?

Kindly explain how 6 years constitute "decades". Not living in PL is not a problem, I keep in touch regularly, thank you very much. The internet is quite useful as well.


How is your reading comprehension these days? I never said these things never happen. I just keep saying that the Polish people are no better and no worse than most of the world in this respect, so if lying and bribery really make you so indignant, why aren't you up in arms against them globally? I daresay I have known more Poles in my life than you, and they are absolutely normal humans in this (and any other) respect. They are not superhuman paragons of virtue, but they are not a corrupt nation of lying cheats either.

Some examples...

For instance, one buys a second hand car, the seller will always say that everything in the car works perfectly so that it gets sold eventhough that he knows that the car has serious mechanical problems which would eventually let to expensive reparations. The seller is not honest and doesn't speak with the truth. Moreover, they modify illegaly the kms the car has in order to sell it to a more expensive price.

Another example, once I needed that someone helps me to make something work (which he knows about) and always he was finding excuses in order to avoid going and doing his work. He quite often said '' I am very busy today, I cannot come'' , then I look for him and he is drinking coffee with the secretaries.

Some of the workers, building the polish highways, steal the asfalt to re-sell it and get some money out of it.

Public workers, they REFUSE to work and to help other people,

Someone said it right, Poland, its infrastructure, beaurocracy, is like in the year 1965 compared to western europe and the civilized world.

Do you really want him to start another thread how money are a source of all evil? Or write again about his zeitgeist feelings?

Have you ever seen an American movie? Did it happen whenever that the car dealer wasn't trying to hide the car flaws and problems? It's all around the world.

I could give you an examples of huge frauds in Poland made for instance by a Dutch, does it mean that Dutch people are a nation of liars and cheaters? I don't think so.


It's mot lying, just a way of ducking you. No one in poland will tell you straightforward that he won't help you/like you/go for your party.

However, Poland is a paradise, compared to Ukranie and most places in Russia.

I have never heard of a second hand car dealer you could trust. In any country. Yes, Poland included.


How is that specifically Polish? I know a lot of British people with a similar evasive and dishonest, non-assertive attitude. So what? Do I create threads on PF about how the British are a nation of liars?


Again, how is that Poland-specific?


Not true, pure and simple. I have had many wonderful experiences in this respect (by public workers, I understand you mean the civil service?) - even when having a complicated problem to solve via phone from abroad.

Just to remind you, my question was:

Role of Non-Governmental Organisations in the Process of Corruption Limitation

Grażyna Kopińska - director of the Stefan Batory Foundation's Anti-Corruption Program

Democracy in Poland, still being in its formative stages, faces a number of threats; one of the more significant of these is the alienation of authority. The lack of effective mechanisms for societal control over those in power fosters a corruption of the system on the one hand and a growing feeling of helplessness among ever-greater circles of the citizenry on the other. This is a very dangerous phenomenon in that it can lead either to thorough corruption of the system (there is a general, if tacit, acknowledgement that, in order to get anything accomplished, one must allow for a kick-back, a cut of the contract value, etc) or to entrenchment of the sentiment that the authorities are, by their very nature, evil and immoral and - as such - should be ignored in the unobtrusive pursuing one's own interests (if such views permanently establish themselves, the next step may well comprise a longing for a strong-handed ruler promising moral renewal and punishment of the guilty).

Already today is Polish society dominated by the view that corruption is a malady to which all levels of power are susceptible, a diagnosis which finds corroboration in the annual research carried out by Transparency International, in reports of the World Bank and of Poland's Supreme Chamber of Control, and in the studies about the social perception of corruption carried out by Demoskop and CBOS on instructions from my own programme. Poland scores someplace in the middle of all the international rankings, being as distant from, say, Denmark as from Yugoslavia or Nigeria. It is worthwhile to consider for a moment how the situation in Poland differs from that prevailing in the countries on either end of such a scale. A Dane or a Swede, the inhabitant of a country which is just about corruption-free, may occasionally read a newspaper article about a corrupt politician or about a minister abusing her/his powers, but it is highly unlikely that he himself will ever slip a bribe to a physician, policeman, or to a magistrate clerk. And it is this involvement in small-scale, quotidian corruption - "street corruption", as it is sometimes referred to - which is the common lot of many people in Poland. In a study by Dr Anna Kubiak commissioned by the Against Corruption Programme and the Institute of Public Affairs (carried out by the CBOS Centre for Social Opinion Research in November of 2000), only 14% of the respondents admitted to giving or accepting bribes. When, however, this result was adjusted to take into account the honesty of the responses, it ended up looking drastically different, with the percentage of bribe-givers swelling to 56%.

The difference, meanwhile, between Poland and, for instance, Ukraine lies in the fact that, in Poland, corruption is a phenomenon which, although commonplace enough, is still a pathology, a factor which interferes with the system. It yet has to become an inherent element of the system of power.

Combating corruption in places where it already occurs is very difficult in that both parties concerned, he who offers the bribe and he who takes it have an interest in keeping their offence a secret. It is for this reason that the prevention of corruption assumes paramount importance.

All the different entities participating in public life have a meaningful and distinct role to play in fighting corruption.

Magdelena, I hope you are not going to tell me that corruption is not lying, cheating or stealing.


A.K, the fact that you are trying to defend a case that lying, cheating and corruption is not deep rooted in the Polish psyche, means you must be considered to be a liar or at best deluded.


Thank you a.k. we are now in agreement. Poles never tell you what they believe and are not straightforward.

A certain kind of Pole lies just like a certain kind of Brit lies or Nigerian, take your pick. It's how you go about the lie that might differentiate nations to a point.

I might have you confused with another member with a similar srceen name.


Look the thread is four years old, i was in culture shock back then, my opinions have changed. When i first became a member i said some things which i shouldnt have, so i changed my attitude.


If you know them it is different.


Bloody car dealers are pretty much all the same, they pull your pants down without you even realising it.


Glad youve been reading it anyway, ohh member in disguise.

This was not the subject of our conversation at all, now was it? Of course corruption is as naughty as cheating.
Nevertheless you have not answered my question and are merely waving a report in my face. How is corruption / lying / cheating Poland-specific? I asked for examples from your life, ones that would convince me that only Polish people would behave in this way.

We should not accept that it is ok to lie or cheat, because others do, it is wrong and it is always better to draw a comparison against the good NOT the bad. The argument I find with many Poles is I am not bad because he/she is bad as well, its a very poor excuse.

You're changing the topic here.

The topic, if you need reminding, is in the title of this thread. Is Poland a nation of liars? With many people saying "yes". I want proof. Hard facts. Instead, you are now drifting into different channels altogether. ;-p

Oh, you've just reminded me... Could you reveal to us what civilized and uncorrupted Latin American country you came from or is it still a secret?


It was about standards of living, that Poland's today standards of living are comparable to those in Sweeden of the 60s. Should I call you a liar, beause you are making up facts?


Now you resort to offending me? I don't say that it doesn't exist. I say that it exists everywhere.
So you can't give any personal experience?


Never?
Besides that I've never said that they don't say what they believe in. I only said that they will never tell you (or most won't tell you) straight in the face that they don't like you. It's not about lying but being polite. As Magdalena said not everyone knows how to be assertive.

The same way many Poles might have problems with asking for favours. They will anounce loudly that they have a problem and count in mind that you offer them a help spontanously. Most Poles get those hidden messages, it seems you don't. It's just a cultural difference.

No one is suggesting that corruption / lying / cheating Poland-specific although you seem to wish to justify the bad and unacceptable habits of many Poles, by suggesting it is ok, because other people in other countries do it. This is exactly the point that Poles always jump to, you wish to justify your bad habits, its about time you cleaned up your own house. Further more you don't even live in Poland, if you are so nationalistic come back to Poland and pay your taxes here, contribute to the country you claim to love, instead of sitting in the UK.


We are not debating everywhere, we are debating Poland corruption,lying,cheating.Unless someone has been living in the boonies for the last 22 years, they should know that corruption is a problem in Poland and needs to be stamped out.