Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European?

Thank you! It's so infuriating to go to Poland and around every corner you hear people saying "Oh, so-and-so actress is like the POLISH Marilyn Monroe!" "So-and-so singer is the POLISH Britney Spears!" "So-and-so city is the POLISH Paris!" "So-and-so other city is the POLISH Berlin!" "So-and-so museum is the POLISH Louvre!!!" "So-and-so politician is the POLISH Kennedy!" "So-and-so writer is the POLISH Arthur Miller!" "So-and-so film director is the POLISH Francis Coppola!" "So-and-so park is the POLISH Central Park!" "So-and-so bridge is the POLISH London Bridge!" "So-and-so book is the POLISH Harry Potter!"

For the love of God, have some SELF RESPECT, would you?!? It's really quite embarrassing.


I completely agree with you. Of course, you can clearly see that mentality show itself with all those "X is the Polish Y!" comments. When you have people feeling pride that Krakow is the "Polish Paris," rather than feeling pride that Krakow IS Polish and has a rich culture and history (and also has one of the oldest universities in Europe), that's when you know you've really hit the bottom of the barrel. That's when you know that these people value cheap slogans, the latest Apple gadget, and the latest overpriced fashions made in a sweatshop in Taiwan or China or wherever is cheapest these days over their own roots, culture, history, people, and most significantly: self respect. Those are the kinds of people who will sell you and the country out faster than you can blink, all so they can call themselves "western" and not have anyone contradict them.

It's sad, disgusting, and deeply, deeply pathetic.

No one ever got respect for being a wannabe.

Texas09, while i agree with you, i would not say that this behaviour of deny their own roots is unexpected

I understand that some poles link be "eastern european" with decades of communist repression and extreme poverty.

Maybe that will be solved as soon as this sad times belong just to the memory.

I really hope that in the close future, Poles will be more proud of their heritage. I usually argue with my pole friends when they start to say that Polish cuisine, music, cinema, etc is so bad and bla bla bla. I just find all those things amazing.

Listen then Szalawa,... one don`t need to be especially intelligent to notice obvious things,... since i first time entered on the internet forums, years ago, i sow how Slavs behave inferior and seam incompetent, compared to people from the west of Europe or USA, especially when it come to historical issues (that are often theme on the net; everything intersects with history; you even can`t talk about politics without knowing history). i sow that it was not incompetence or inferiority to the the lack of knowledge in the sense of formal education but, it was rather due to the distorted knowledge that generated complexes in Slavs so that they lack self-confidence.

On the other hand, it was shocking how are personalities from the west of Europe self confident when it comes to their position in history. They seams to feel to have deep roots in Europe. They felt true European, true masters of this land. They were and are truly self confident.

Then, answer came to me. i realized what is the Slavic problem. Problem was/is that Slavs didn `t write their own history. No, our societies, in our defeats and misery, accepted foreign version of the Slavic history. Of course, when foreigners who were traditionally hostile on Slavs, with ambition to control them in the future, wrote Slavic history, they wrote it as it was suitable to them. Deep in the root of the ruling historical school we can recognize genesis of the Slavic inferiority. Take just this example... how could Slavic man prove anything (that is related to history/politics) to the people from the west of Europe, when Slavic person received education which state that are Slavs newcomers to Europe and, at the same time, person from the west of Europe knows (!) of its European roots and knows (!) of Slavs as newcomers to Europe?

See, my friend Szalawa, to me who was grown up in Yugoslavia and received knowledge in that vast and, in its time powerful Slavic state, that situation of the inferior Slavic behavior on the net and, at the same time, self confident (even overconfident) western Europeans, ... that situation was blasphemous to me. Yes, Yugoslavia was also victim of the pro-Germanic historical school but still, parallel with formal teachings we got insights into the all kind of new questions and hypothesis that were initiated by numerous authors (Slavic and non-Slavic) who dared to ask how is possible to state that are Slavs newcomers to Europe when there are obvious proofs that are Slavs, if not first Europeans to Europe then at least equally old Europeans as people from the west of Europe.


You see, you yourself noticed that tone of this thread.

So, respond to the any situation that question Slavic deep European roots, must go with full self-confidence in high Slavic place in European history. And, with the reason. For Slavs are last true native Europeans. No, not just in the physical sense. All ethnic Europeans who now inhabit Europe are physically of European roots but, only Slavs can dare to state that their Slavic culture have continuity with original Western world that gave birth to European culture.


Western world was born on the line Balkan-Baltic, in time immemorial. Old core was Balkan and last known core was in Poland. It died out with defeat of the medieval Commonwealth around Poland. So, modern Poland is natural inheritor of that last Western core.

That original ancient Western world influenced all other parts of Europe: Greeks, Romans, ... Romans in turn influenced Romano-Brits, Germanics, etc. Also, old Western world was in interaction with the Romans.

But, together with the influences from old original Western world, parts of Europe received other influences. One of those major influences that affected character of the culture as a whole was Egyptian influence. One simple can`t comprehend Roman culture without understanding Egyptian influences on it. On the other side, old Western world is still recognizable as the unique entity, attached solely to the its own continuity, even from before Neolithic to the our days. Yes, old original West was influenced by Romans (in mutual interdependence), by Persians, by Jews, by Mongols, by Turks, by Germanics, .... still, it preserved its own recognizable uniqueness, that clear Proto-Slavic and Slavic pattern.

So, answer would be positive. Today`s Europe consists of two entities, two major cultural patterns- west of Europe and Slavic Europe (ie Western world).

Well, yes, obviously it's very much expected... does that mean people shouldn't endeavor to change, especially if their circumstance have? Poland isn't communist anymore.

This is an utter non sens, It rarely happens but if it does it's just to camper the person or the place that is better know so someone can have better image of it, it's not wannabe thing.

You make a fundamental mistake NOBODY IS SAYING POLAND IS WESTERN EUROPE, IT IS CENTRAL EUROPE AND YOU CAN SEE IT EVERY TIME YOU LOOK AT THE MAP OF EUROPE AND POLISH: LANGUAGE, ALPHABET, CUISINE, RELIGION, ARCHITECTURE, MENTALITY, EVEN THE TIME ZONE IS CENTRAL EUROPEAN

Please explain why is it so hard to comprehend for you?!

Wulkan, first of all, let's take a deep breath and calm down. We're all mature adults here. No one is trying to hurt anyone else.

Second, I'm glad you haven't come in contact with this phenomenon. Seeing as you live in England, and not knowing how often you visit Poland, I can surmise that you perhaps may not have had much experience with this.

Unfortunately, I have come in contact with this in Poland, multiple times, and over a very great number of years. In fact, I had experienced it on this very thread!


I am curious as to how saying that "Krakow... is quickly becoming the Paris of Poland" gives someone a "better image of it"? Have you seen Paris and Krakow lately? Because I have. And they are literally NOTHING alike. I mean, yeah, they're both old, they're both in Europe, they both have old buildings and paved streets, they both have a lot of Europeans living in them, and a both have a lot of tourists... but beyond the basics of a historical city, they're quite different.

Third, I'm not saying that anyone is saying that Poland is western Europe. Saying Poland is a part of western Europe and constantly comparing Polish things to their western European or American counterparts is not the same thing, and I am not saying that it is. I am merely pointing out the fact that the comparing tends to happen a lot (at, what I would consider, pathological levels; but, I digress). Clearly, you and I disagree on the motivation behind this, but at least we agree that this DOES happen sometimes. See! We CAN agree on something! ;)

Finally, please know that I'm truly not trying to hurt or insult you. I'm only trying to express my viewpoint, engage in civilized discussion, and clarify my views - as you seem to be missing my point, and instead seem intent on making it abundantly clear that Poland is central Europe. Now, as you may have noticed, this discussion is entitled "Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European?" So if you have beef with the idea that someone may not consider Poland to be central European, I suggest you take it up with the original poster. God bless!

I am calm all the time, you just make the things up right now.


About 6-8 times a year on average.


Of course I have seen both cities and they are nothing alike, that celestyne you quoted is some sort of idiot.


Of course we can


I made my point in capital letters but it's till a point and you are trying to twist it against me or someting.


You talk more about your "civilized discussion" than you make point imo. Do I insult you? No, so how am I not trying to engage in civilized discussion and you are?

Of course they're nothing alike (I've been to both). I've never heard of Kraków as being referred to as "Paris of Poland". I've heard about prewar Warsaw being called "The Paris of the North" - I don't know by whom and why, though (clearly, when pre-war Warsaw existed I wasn't alive yet ;)).

It looks like it's still called like this sometimes: iconicstays.com/index.php/experiences/item/269-warsaw-paris-of-the-north

Or it's mentioned that it was called like that:

goethe.de/ins/pl/lp/prj/cit/mpc/wett/pdn/enindex.htm
the-american-interest.com/2014/12/31/central-europe-a-vanishing-idea/

"In this new vision, Warsaw was no longer the Paris of the North"

Apparently Prague is called like this too:

vancouversun.com/travel/Ports+Bows+Paris+North+worthy+cruise+extension/9959585/story.html

And a number of other cities in the world are called "Paris of the East" (including Warsaw) ;):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_of_the_East


I think you're exaggerating a bit ^_^'
Of course Poles are looking up to the West (although less so then in the past, I think), but I've heard sometimes Poles using Paris, Marilyn Monroe (about Kasia Figura, but that was looong ago ;)) and, maybe Britney Spears comparisons. But such comparisons are usually used as a point of reference, so the person you're talking to would know what you're talking about - since those people, cities are simply famous worldwide and when you'll be referring to them people will know what more or less you're talking about.

If I were to talk to a Russian person and tell them what Warsaw and Kraków are like I would compare Warsaw to Moscow and Kraków to Saint Petersburg (and anyone who knows something about Moscow and Saint Petersburg would know why).

Oh, and as for "Kraków - Paris of Poland" comparison - one could use such comparison in such sense that Kraków in Poland is considered to be "the artistic city", the city of/for artists, a city with artistic atmosphere, an old artistic and cultural centre of Poland, etc.. A bit outdated to some extent and maybe surpassed by Warsaw as far as modern art is concerned, just like Paris is by New York nowadays. But, still, artists from around the world go to Paris and Polish artists to Kraków out of nostalgia and to see "the great old art" :)

Paulina, you have to learn a lot! Nobody will refer to Krakow as anything else but a good drinking pit. If people are talking about a second Paris they talk about Lviv in Ukraine or Bukarest in Romania, not any city in Poland...........

I'm talking about Poles, JollyRomek (especially Polish artists), who know Polish history and culture and not about foreigners who are going to Kraków to drink cheap beer... o_O

Maybe I'll quote it for you:


In Poland by Poles.
And, as I wrote, Kraków isn't called by Poles "The Paris of Poland", I just explained why, in what sense it could be compared to Paris - what logic would be there behind such comparison. *rolls eyes*

OK?


Well, not in Poland... If anything, Poles would proably call Prague and maybe Budapest in such a way, I think.

Exactly, I remember Radoslaw Sikorski was giving an interview in English tv and he said that Doda is a Polish Paris Hilton which is just a fast way of decribing someone.

Well there you go. What Poles think in Poland about Polish cities. Hardly what foreigners think about your cities is it?

I have heard the expression "Paris of ........" many times. Poland was never mentioned........


No need to roll your beautiful eyes :)

Yes, exactly, that's what I wrote. Texas09 was writing about comparisons used by Poles, not by foreigners.
Not everything has to revolve about what foreigners think about Poland or Polish cities, you know :)


*sigh* + *facepalm*

Read my previous posts, please... *smh*


Then read with understanding next time.

EDIT.

And just in case you lost your eyesight when reading my posts earlier I'll quote it for you:



*tumbleweed rolling*

Of course. You can call Lublin the Paris of Poland as much as you want amongst the Polish people. If you are happy with it, so be it.


I am not sure what that means.


Again....not sure.


Difficult for the above reason

Thank you for your permission, but we can't really do that since Lublin hasn't been for centuries the artistic and cultural centre of Poland.


It means I sighed and did this:
i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/001/582/picard-facepalm.jpg


smh - shaking my head

You're welcome!

Texas09, if you ever wonder what it's like for a Pole to deal with a Western foreigner then read my exchange with JollyRomek... Sometimes it's like talking to deaf people...

Wulkan, I'm not trying to twist it against you or anything like that. I simply don't quite agree with your opinion. And that's fine. We don't have agree on everything.

What I took offense at was the implication that "Eastern European" is somehow a derogative term. I truly do not see it that way. For me, there is Europe. And then, if one insists on regimenting Europe, there is Western Europe and Eastern Europe. And, to me and in my experience and in my environment, Poland was always Eastern Europe - because of the geography and because it shared a similar Slavic culture and language with many (not all) countries in this eastern part of Europe.

I understand that you were always taught that Poland is Central Europe. And I accept that. To me, personally, the distinction of Central Europe seems a little redundant, but that's just my opinion. In my opinion, "Central Europe" sounds more bland than "Eastern Europe" or "Western Europe." But, that's just my opinion. I associate "Eastern Europe" with a certain sense of romanticism that I don't associate with Western Europe (and definitely not Central Europe) - Pan Taduesz, Potop, Ogniem i Mieczem, etc. The birch trees and grassy plains, forests, and twisting rivers. The wild landscapes, untamed by humans, save for the occasional country estate. In Germany, the landscape is very beautiful but it feels like every inch has been tended to, improved upon, and organized by humans. But in Poland, and especially the further east you go, the landscape isn't so perfectly manicured. There's an element of freedom. One isn't better or worse than the other; they're just different. The Slavic soul IS different from the Anglo-Saxon and the Romance souls. Not better or worse. Just different. Maybe, having grown up in Texas, where we are fiercely independent and highly value our freedom, natural landscapes, and wide open spaces, I am drawn to that. Perhaps that's why I feel so strongly about not calling Eastern Europe "bad."

Paulina, all of my examples have been examples that I have personally heard or read. And if you say that it's used as a point of reference - ALL of the times I've experienced this comparison has been IN Poland BY Poles to other Poles. I've heard it in real life, on the radio, on the TV, and read it in Polish magazines and newspapers that are written for a Polish audience. Furthermore, telling some foreigner that Krakow is like Paris, except Polish, isn't really accurate, is it? I've also actually heard other Americans comment on this tendency to compare, as well. Maybe it's so common that people don't even notice it. But coming from another country, where NO ONE compares themselves to another country and every Joe Schmo is proud of his roots - however impressive or unimpressive they may be - it's really quite noticeable. If it happened once or twice, it would be normal. But because I see it ALL THE TIME when I'm in Poland (and even when I'm not), it starts to take on pathological dimensions. But you know, do what you will.

Because Poles are always right. Have you ever noticed that? And if someone dares to challenge you, it's always someone else's fault. Never the fault of the Polish people though. The fact that you can not integrate in Germany, or the Uk or Ireland....fault of the local people, not the Polish people.

In Poland you are even worse. Can't get a promotion because the "western guy" got it. Must be the fault of the western guy because the poor Poles always get discriminated upon.

You poor poor people.

Paulina, respectfully, in this situation, I actually understand JollyRomek's point, and - to me - it appears that you are not understanding his point, and are actually perpetuating the attitude that results in Poles comparing themselves to *The West*. Said with love. I'm not trying to insult you, truly. :)

In your response to me, you initially said that these comparisons are made in order to create a point of reference. Then, you said these comparisons are only made in Poland among Poles, and you further reiterated this latter assertion in your conversation with JollyRomek.

If these comparisons are made only in Poland among Poles, then what possible need is there for a "point of reference"?

Texas09, as I wrote, Poles are looking up to the West, it's just I definitely haven't noticed such amount of comparisons as you have.

People are rarely doing this in real life, I mean, people I know, I talk to. It can be something like "Wow, what is she doing, she wants to be the Polish Lady Gaga or sth...?" I don't know, maybe it's because I live in a traditional, rather conservative region of Poland or something...


As I wrote, I don't think I ever heard such comparison.


Well, of course, you come from a Western country, you don't have anyone to look up to :)
And look at your own post - you just compared Texas in a way to the East of Poland/Eastern Europe :) Although it's, obviously, nothing alike, but it made me understand a bit what you are getting at.


Yup, talking to a Westerner... That's what it looks like... Thank you for showing your true colours, anyway... :)


Then I'm sorry, texas09, but I'm totally lost... For me it's JollyRomek that didn't understand anything of what I wrote.


No, I wrote that Kraków in Poland by Poles is called/is considered to be "the artistic city", "the centre of Polish culture". Which means this comparison (Paris of Poland - I repeat - of Poland, not of whatever greater entity like the North or the East of Europe or whatever) can be used when talking to foreigners, of course.

Isn't Anglo-Saxon different to Romance soul?


I'm not saying it is.


It is, but we can always change it if we believe in ourselves and understand who we are.


The landscapes are very diverse in the whole Europe, you are talking like Slavic Europe is some sort of seperate continent with a diffrent climant and landscapes which is a non sens. There are nice landscapes in the West, East, North, South and Center of Europe and in a Slavic countries you have twisted rivers in one country and no rivers in the other. And Germany has loads of beautiful nature and landscapes never changed by people, I have been to Germany many times, especially on the south and I recommend.

I wouldn't say it's redundant, I think it reflects reality.
Of course, we could just drop the West vs Central vs the East of Europe division altogether and just call it "Europe", but I don't see anyone doing that :)


And who are we, Wulkan, according to you?

I would say we are all human beings but I guess it's too simple for people :)

This is not a fact, this is your fantasy because the fact is that we Poles integrate very well in those countries.


Sorry, but what on Earth are you talking about son? lol


Good point, after all, every Eropean country is diffrent one from another.

I will tell you some strange thing - Russians often sound as if Russia is a different continent altogether ;D It's not "Europe", it's not "Asia" it's just Russia ;) They say "I'm going to Europe for holidays this summer" :) As if Russia wasn't in Europe at all :) And all of this despite the fact that the European part of Russia is culturally definitely European...

*shrugs*

People and their definitions and labels and points of view, huh... :)

I understand that. That's my point exactly! There is a difference in competition and it being a wannabe. Several years ago, in Warsaw, in a POLISH newspaper, I read an article about some museum that they were planning on building in Warsaw. One of the people involved in this museum was quoted as saying that it would be "like the Polish Louvre!" Now, if he had said something like "It will be bigger than the Louvre and hold twice as much art!" I would have been like:



. Why? Because that's a healthy sense of competition and it denotes the attitude: "I am capable and good enough to build something that improves upon something else that has already been built" instead of..."Oh, well, maybe if I build an imitation of something that already exists, I'll be good enough."

Over history, different kings and rulers and nations have tried to compete with each other and outdo each other and to prove how wonderful they were through their achievements. And these are the things that are remembered and admired. But if even if you DO have something that is admirable, but you act like it's crap, or that it's almost as a good as something else, NO ONE WILL ADMIRE IT. You have to believe in yourself and respect yourself before others believe in you or respect you. The United States today is (still) the most powerful country and arguably the wealthiest country in the world. The US has made GREAT achievements. Today, it is reviled and loved/admired for its greatness. But it didn't start out that way! It started out with a handful of unhappy immigrants from Europe. Less than 300 years ago, it was still an unsophisticated colony of Britain, that geographically spanned only the eastern coast of North America! Think about that. 300 years ago, Poland was much bigger than it is now and was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, with centuries of history under her belt. How did those colonists, who walked along muddy streets and lived mostly in wooden houses, while most of Europe (including Poland) studied in centuries-old stone universities, come to be the most powerful nation on earth? It certainly was NOT because they "looked up" to and compared themselves to anyone else. If anything, the US built things to compete with other nations. "Manifest Destiny" was ideal for a long time under which American society operated. It meant that they believed they were meant to do great things and they deserved great things. And then they went out and did them. Now, whether or not this "Manifest Destiny" was ethical is another question. A lot of Native American tribes suffered greatly. However, my point is that the US did not get to where it is today from the starved and measles-ridden pilgrims on the Mayflower by kow-towing to everyone else and hoping someone would think they're cool enough.

I'm not saying Poland should just give the West the finger, or anything like that. I'm just saying chill out with the West-worship, and start taking pride in some of Poland's achievements. You MUST take pride in your own work in order to be successful at anything. This is true for individuals, and for societies. Poland should just focus on being the best it can be rather than looking at its neighbor and trying to measure up, is all I'm saying! ;)


Someone earlier in this thread wrote this:


That is NOT how the comparisons I am referring to are made. We're straying from the original intent here. :) And my point remains: if Krakow is considered an artistic city in Poland, why the need to compare it to some other artistic city? After all, if it is already known, in Poland, as an artistic city... it already has that definition. So comparing it to Paris in order to illustrate how artistic it is, when it's already considered to be artistic, is redundant.


Yes, but I didn't say "Texas is like the American Poland!" Instead, I said that both places have similar characteristics that I like. The would more like saying "Krakow has a lot of art. You can see artists selling their creations on the street. Paris is like that too. I think that's why I like both cities."


I think JollyRomek's point was that if it's Poles in Poland comparing their cities to foreign cities, then it can't very well be a "point of reference" because these comparisons are made among Poles, rather than to foreigners. Which is my point, as well. And because I AM Polish, it actually bothers me because it sounds like something isn't good enough unless it's the Polish version of some "Western" counterpart.

I mean, I do not live in Poland, so I maybe I don't have a right to try to get Poles to stop comparing themselves to "The West," if it makes them feel better. But this is just how it appears to me, as an "outsider" in Poland. And this is just my emotional reaction, as a person of Polish blood who feels a connection to and pride for Poland.


Yes...


First, I am not talking like "Slavic Europe" is some sort of separate continent. I never even remotely implied it. Of course there are nice landscapes everywhere! But that does not negate the fact that different regions of the world have different landscapes that I, personally, am more drawn to some than to others. This isn't right or wrong; it's simply my preference. As I said, I "associate" Poland and Eastern Europe with this landscape, along with several other things. I was speaking of my personal feelings I had regarding a particular term. Just like you may "associate" a certain love song with your first kiss, or associate a certain color with a certain emotion. Let's not get pedantic. I'm not trying to insult you!


Yes, of course. Poland always has and is a part of Europe. And I think more and more these days with globalization the ideas of western and eastern europe are falling the wayside. It's just Europe. BUT if one is going to make those distinctions, then one can start splitting hairs. The US is the US, even though Georgia is "The South" and Pennsylvania is "The North."

"Polsko! (...) Pawiem narodów byłaś i papugą"

(Poland! (...) You were the peacock and the parrot of nations)

*Juliusz Słowacki, "Grób Agamemnona", 1839

:)))

That's all I have time for right now, so I will leave you with this, see you in the evening probably :)

*Juliusz Słowacki - he was one of the Three Bards (the national poets of Polish Romantic literature)

Definitely Eastern European.

@milky

Read more books about WW2. Poles never collaborated with Nazis as majority of nations occupied by Third Reich. Many Poles hid Jews even if it was a death sentence for being caught on it...the death sentence for helper and all his family members INCLUDING small infants. My advice to you is: mind your tongue and remain in silence. You suffer with ignorance.

@Wulkan


Indeed. Poles account for the second largest minority in Germany after Turks, and they are all in all incredibly well integrated. They are often not any from native Germans, and often people are surprised to learn just how many Poles live in Germany.