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Single mothers in Poland


OP InPolska 9 | 1,805
26 Jul 2015 #61
@Jon: yes, elsewhere it is fortuntely different! People get or don't get married, they have or don't have kids, they are homo, hetero or whatever and hardly anyone cares...

Several Poles told me that (in more rural areas) women who don't have children are seen as ... selfish until others know the reason why they don't have any kids. I could not believe it!

Some catholic countries have moved forward a lot: Spain, Portugal, some in South America and even Ireland so there is hope ;)
Vox - | 172
26 Jul 2015 #62
@InPolska

OK, once again, let's hear it, as a white hetero male, you feel discriminated

Difference between you and me is that I talk about facts and you about feelings.
martynemko.com/articles/are-white-males-getting-shortchanged_id1229

lol!

LOL back at you, so far you haven't addressed my arguments and questions, you blow things out of proportion and assume a lot, feel a lot in a way that is a true mark of an ideological bigot.

@jon -

And the kids are stigmatised and get complexes so the shame goes on from generation to generation.

If you are hysterical you should really go for it, not for generations for eternity.
Are you even able to address real problems not imaginary ones?

And all outside influence that just hurts people inside

I guess If they are oversensitive or paranoid makes no difference in your eyes. State's institutions, functions and laws are not here to make you feel better? Also idea of belonging is build on exclusion, a cohesive society need to set boundaries otherwise it will disintegrate.

Several Poles told me that (in more rural areas) women who don't have children are seen as ... selfish until others know the reason why they don't have any kids. I could not believe it!

Who cares? There are people out there with real problems. You listen to gossip too much, either go out more or do proper research.
OP InPolska 9 | 1,805
27 Jul 2015 #63
@Vox: No, it's not "who cares". It is most unpleasant to hear bad comments when not married, not having kids, etc.... like still the way it is in Poland. I know (educated, good looking) girls in Warsaw who are in the late twenties or older, not married, not even with boyfriends and they do not appreciate remarks re their status.... Yes, because in countries like Poland, a woman is made to be married, to have kids otherwise there is something "wrong" with her...

Difficult not to be in the "norm" in countries like Poland! Why don't they live and let others live their own way?
jon357 74 | 22,469
27 Jul 2015 #64
@Vox: No, it's not "who cares". It is most unpleasant to hear bad comments when not married, not having kids, etc.... like still the way it is in Poland

Exactly. How someone lives is nobody elses concern. There isn't even any sort of base for their moralising. No sort of 'universal' moral standard or underlying valid philosophy.

Why don't they live and let others live their own way?

Some people just seem unable to do that.
OP InPolska 9 | 1,805
27 Jul 2015 #65
@Jon: absolutely and who are they to impose their way of living, of thinking, of doing things to others?

I myself did not have kids (mostly for medical reasons further to operation as I didn't want risks) and I sometimes feel the pressure as I have to "explain".

This was so in western Europe I suppose till the 1950's.

Back at home, nobody asks women why they are alone, why they don't have kids, why this and why not that.

Why don't they mind their own businesses (which are often not so .... clean ;) )?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,854
27 Jul 2015 #66
In the UK, it simply isn't an issue, even in villages.

well - officially no - but deep in people's hearts and minds, it really is.
As is single motherhood.
Englishman 2 | 277
27 Jul 2015 #67
Yes, because in countries like Poland, a woman is made to be married, to have kids otherwise there is something "wrong" with her...

I've heard that said about Poland. Despite it being quite a feminist country in some ways, there is a feeling that single women in their 30s are ostracised by other women who feel they will 'steal' their men, because women could not possibly be happy on their own. This sets women against each other, when they should be supportive of their own gender, and I wonder if it also makes women reluctant to walk away from bad men because they fear the stigma of being alone.
OP InPolska 9 | 1,805
27 Jul 2015 #68
@English: it is not only in Poland but in Poland it's very much so. For them, a girl is to get married and have kids (sorry, not very feminist ;)) and a woman alone, with no kids, is a weirdo. I know quite a few of young professionals who just happen to be alone, with not even boyfriends and they all say they have a lot of pressure from families. I am not talking about "village idiots" but of educated (sometimes even high) middle class. Rough for the girls! As a matter of fact, such girls prefer to be alone than with jerks (I agree with them, the girls, not the jerks ;))
Englishman 2 | 277
27 Jul 2015 #69
@inPolska, maybe I'm weird but I prefer the idea of dating a woman who has lived alone some of her adult life. That way I'll know she's with me because she wants to be, and not because she's afraid of being criticised for being alone. Plus it shows she can be independent and self-reliant. Yes, it seems I'm a groupie for feminists :-)
OP InPolska 9 | 1,805
27 Jul 2015 #70
I"m this kind of woman too ;)
Vox - | 172
27 Jul 2015 #71
No, it's not "who cares".

It is precisely about who cares InPolska. I can't phantom why would you like to poke your nose in other people business? Trying to dictate them what they should think or say. Don't you have a life of your own?

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It is most unpleasant to hear bad comments when not married, not having kids, etc

I say that it is not pleasant to hear bad comments at all. However those of us who are actually adults are well aware that life is not a fairytale.

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I know (educated, good looking) girls in Warsaw who are in the late twenties or older, not married, not even with boyfriends and they do not appreciate remarks re their status

I'm sure those are big girls are quite capable of defending themselves and holding their own without your help.
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Yes, because in countries like Poland, a woman is made to be married, to have kids otherwise there is something "wrong" with her...

You may believe it or not but overwhelming majority of women all over the world actually do want to have children and a husband. Hence if a woman claims something to the contrary people may start to wonder, not only in Poland. So what?

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Why don't they live and let others live their own way

Why don't you heed your own advice? Instead of spinning tales of woe based on gossip, hearsay and overactive imagination you could actually do something useful with your time.

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Back at home,

It must be pardise on Earth.

Back at home, nobody asks women why they are alone, why they don't have kids, why this and why not that.

I think you have lived a very sheltered life "back home".
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I myself did not have kids (mostly for medical reasons further to operation as I didn't want risks) and I sometimes feel the pressure as I have to "explain

Oh, so it is all about you isn't it. I'm sorry, I hate to break it to you in such a blunt manner but contrary to what you think people do have real problems and the world do not revolve around you.

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@Englishman

Yes, it seems I'm a groupie for feminists

I don't know about that but you fit the profile.
OP InPolska 9 | 1,805
28 Jul 2015 #72
@Vox: I do NOT impose (look up word in a dictionary) my way of doing things, I just say what I see and I hear (;)). Yes, I do know a lot of girls who are really pressured by families to "settle down". Where did I say they "needed" me to help them? Obviously you read what you want but not what is written.

And yes, I come from a much different society since most people don't get married, over 50% of kids are born "out of wedlock", where gays may get married, etc etc...
jon357 74 | 22,469
28 Jul 2015 #73
Yes, I do know a lot of girls who are really pressured by families to "settle down".

And this is the key to it: pressure. It leads to people choosing or staying with the wrong person and a life of misery that carries on over the generations.
OP InPolska 9 | 1,805
28 Jul 2015 #74
@Jon: yes, and it only brings misery to all. Girls (and boys) shall end up marrying "just anyone" in order not to remain single, gays and lesbians shall end up in hetero marriages, unhappy couples shall not divorce but stay together ... All this because of family and environment pressure.

Of course, it is not so much in Warsaw and other big cities in Poland (unless I don't meet the "right" people) but in all those small places in Poland, it's unbreathable. The same if not going to Church ;). I personally would never live when in Poland in another place than Warsaw as I would not fit in ;). Warsaw is alredy a big village so I don't even want to think about Kielce, Radom, Gdynia, Lublin and the like ;)

Needless to say, most countries are like that (except for a minority of very liberal societies) but since we are in Polish Forums, we talk about Poland and not about Bulgaria, Andorra, Paraguay or Liechtenstein ;)

PS: I once had an American colleague (guy from NY State) who left Poland (he had no ties here) after a few months because he said he felt ... claustrophobic in Poland. Sometimes I do too.... (but can't live)
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
28 Jul 2015 #75
it only brings misery to all

The word "only" is typical of a simplistic black and white approach ot things. Life is too rich and varied to fit into the "only" mode.

Yes, to varying degrees family pressure may be unberable to some. People differ as to their bearability. In some cases however, admonishment to finally grow up and settle down may save a girl or boy from falling into bad company, running afoul of the law, overdosing, becoming an alcoholic, dropping out of school, etc. Young people are not always the best judge to what to decide.

people choosing or staying with the wrong person

Once again, people may be pressured by their fa,milies to choose and stay with the wrong person, but nowadays indivduals are pretty good at choosing and staying with the wrong person all on their own without any family pressure. Egocentrics may say their love has burnt out and it's time to move on -- who needs an old wife and a bunch of screaming kids?! Less egoistic types in a loveless marriage may decide to stay "for the kids". There are as many variants as there are people, but propagandists (either paid or the volunteer variety) only pick and choose those exampels that fit their preconceived notions.
jon357 74 | 22,469
28 Jul 2015 #76
Of course, it is not so much in Warsaw and other big cities in Poland (unless I don't meet the "right" people) but in all those small places in Poland, it's unbreathable. The same if not going to Church ;).

Villages basically, the same everywhere.

Stigmatising single parents just causes misery. Forcing someone to stay in an abusive or stagnant relationship for the sake of 'stability', 'appearances' or 'for the kids' (who invariable grow up miserable) etc is a crime beyond forgiveness on the part of those who do it and those who encourage it.
Englishman 2 | 277
28 Jul 2015 #77
I"m this kind of woman too ;)

Do you mean you're an independent, feminist woman who therefore attracts men who like feminists (i.e. straight), or that you are a groupie for such women (i.e. that you're gay)?
Vox - | 172
28 Jul 2015 #78
Obviously you read what you want but not what is written.

You are spinning tales of woe based on gossip, hearsay and overactive imagination, those problems you are writing about are not real problems.
"And yes, I come from a much different society since most people don't get married, over 50% of kids are born "out of wedlock", where gays may get married"

where nobody makes unpleasant remarks and nobody is being pressured, where embarrassing or awkward questions are never being asked. As I have said a real paradise. In case you didn't notice I'm being sarcastic here, also 50% of kids born out of wedlock that is not something you should brag about.

I think this is all about you, it is a weirdest whining I have ever seen on this forum. You are unhappy in Poland, just say it, nobody will judge you.
bullfrog 6 | 602
28 Jul 2015 #79
And yes, I come from a much different society since most people don't get married, over 50% of kids are born "out of wedlock", where gays may get married, etc etc...

Would that be France? I happen to agree with some (even most) of the ideas that you have presented but there is something so "arrogant" about your way of putting them forward that one almost feels bound to reject them...
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
30 Jul 2015 #80
Stigmatising single parents

Focusing solely on paretns or single mothers diverts attention from the most important people involved: the children.
This is not to suggest that single mothers or cohabitating couples should be banned or penalised by the law, only that such arrangements are on avergae damaging to the youngsters involved.

For children, the differences between cohabiting and married parents extend far beyond the lack of a marriage licence. Compared to children of married parents, those with cohabiting parents are more likely to experience the breakup of their families, be exposed to "complex" family forms, live in poverty, suffer abuse, and have negative psychological and educational outcomes.

One of the major sources of inequality between cohabiting and married parenthood is that cohabiting couples tend to split up at higher rates than married couples. According to the 2013 National Marriage Project report, Knot Yet, children of cohabiting parents in their twenties are three times more likely to experience the dissolution of their family than children born to married parents. The Fragile Families and Child Wellbeing Study (FFCW), meanwhile, finds that "nearly half of parents who are cohabiting at the time of their child's birth break up within five years, compared to only 20 percent of married parents."

family-studies.org/for-kids-parental-cohabitation-and-marriage-are-not-interchangeable
jon357 74 | 22,469
30 Jul 2015 #81
The best way to focus on the children is to support the single mother. Not to stigmatise non-standard families or moralise that she should get or keep a husband.

Better to treat people decently rather than to moralise at them or quote bogus American statistics. Families have enough problems without trying to keep toxic and dysfunctional ones together thereby making all parties miserable.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,854
30 Jul 2015 #82
do you have any statistics that show the outcome for gay boys brought up by wife beating intolerant homophobes?
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
30 Jul 2015 #83
I googled "gay boys brought up by wife beating intolerant homophobes?" and guess what? Your PF post came up. If interested in the subject, try googling a more clearly and specifically phrased topic.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
30 Jul 2015 #85
toxic and dysfunctional ones

You've sure got a skewed view of what is toxic and dysfucntional. According to to jon there are essentially two kinds of families:
1) Dysfunctional, i.e. hetero ones ones comprising brutal, drunken machos who beat their their wives and homo sons.
2) Functional ones: happy, well-adjusted, harmonious, loving homo households with adopted kids or test-tube babies, never plagued by substance abuse, domestic violence, STDs or break-ups.

It's a free country so there's no law against believing and spreading such twaddle.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,854
30 Jul 2015 #86
and according to you there are 'good families' headed by a working male , maybe 2.4 children,etc etc.,

then there are evil households, possibly headed by a lone woman who is into animal sex and smokes cannabis for breakfast.

Oh and brings a different dog home every night of the week.

The children are feral and sleep in the dog's bed.
jon357 74 | 22,469
30 Jul 2015 #87
There you go again, Polonius3, resorting to hysteria since your premise has been proved wrong, and your attempt to pour scorn on and denigrate single parents has failed.

Many people who bring up their kids either alone or in unconventional circumstances do so very well. They do that despite the moralising from people like yourself and they do so with the very minimum support.

I'm slightly connected with a charity in Poland that supports very young single mothers who want to complete their schooling so they have a better chance of providing for their kids rather than being dependent on a man, various relatives or handouts from churches. Do you fancy making a donation?
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
30 Jul 2015 #88
evil households

Only jon is into such extremes. With him it's the other way round. He demonises hetero famileis as essentially evil and tries to normativise "otherness", counter-culture arrangements as essentially superior. In reality, each household is a separate entity and varies depending on a variety of factors. But research has shown what conditions are usually best to raise kids in. Those are ideal conditions which one can strive for, although achieving such ideals often poses a major challenge.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,854
30 Jul 2015 #89
But research has shown what conditions are usually best to raise kids in.

yes there are 'best' conditions for child raising. but encouraging people to ostracise and demonise young single mothers in their communities is hardly...in the spirit of Christ is it?
jon357 74 | 22,469
30 Jul 2015 #90
And in what way, Po3 is urging decent behaviour towards single parents 'demonising' any other sort of family?

And how does your research on 'ideal conditions' mean that we should stigmatise a woman whose family doesn't fall within those 'ideal conditions'?

You really haven't thought this one through, have you....


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