Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland?

Dzien Dobry, Peter,

You have the right to believe anything you like, Peter.
You can believe that it makes bad luck to shake hands over a threshold or that Jews caused the Black plagues in Europe, or that Canada, and USA, and South Korea are savages, LOL. The problem with that, and your position about circumcision, is that you are up against decades of medical history, and mountains of research done in countries around the world.

They're not all Muslim countries or muslim doctors, or muslim websites, Peter.
You can dispute or ignore, dozens and dozens of medical sources or pretend that they all are Jewish or promoting Islam, but the fact of the matter is they aren't.

At the end of the day, you still can't explain why circumcised men have no phimosis, lower rates of HIV, no penile cancer, 10 times fewer Urinary tract infections, and the rates of cervical cancer are lower among the among in places where circumcision is routinely practiced.

You also can't explain why thousands and thousands of adult men are willingly circumcised, and that the vast majority are happy with the result. According to Masters and Johnson, one of the world's leading teams of sex research, there is no difference in sexual pleasure or sensitivity during intercourse among those circumcised vs uncircumcised.

Why is this thread still going on? I understand that some of you are just obsessed with forcing your own views on everybody's else. I particularly remember FUZZYWICKETS's obsession with salt (and blandness) in Polish cuisine, which went on and on and on...

Any threads he participates seems to have the same pattern: on and on and on...

Yes it is, no it is not. Yes it is, no it is not...

Get over it. Poles are not interested in your snipped foreskin. Please do not try to force this idea down our throats. I am sure there are many other subjects that you are good at, and which will be listen to with pleasure by most of us. But not this one... Boring ...

Agreed 100%. It's part lt trolling, partly cultural imperialism and partly some individuals working off their own inadequacies about being mutilated.

Yeah, I have to say that I imagined the ones saying that circumcision is the absolutely necessary thing to make the otherwise naturally-imperfect male PERFECT, are the ones who unfortunately, when they were tiny babies with only their parents to protect them, were handed over for the snipping.

I am really sorry that happens. At least the practice could be changed so that boys only do it aged 18 plus, with consent (of course!!) ... and the signature of two (impartial) doctors ...

So yep, trying to convince us all that Poland is backwards because they don't do that to babies routinely and don't exert cultural pressure on all parents to do that to their little boys is ... not gonna work, really.

End of thread.

Hello Natasia, No one is trying to convince you that Poland is backwards just because of this, and no one is trying to force this idea down anyone's throat. The irony of your post is staggering. We're having a robust and cordial dialogue about the health and medical benefits of circumcision and the many advantages of it, compared to the small number of complications.

You want to make it only for those above 18, with the signature of two (impartial) doctors. LOL. Look who's forcing their views on others, and would those doctors be Catholic Polish by chance??? It's not the end, Natasia, --- you can't prove your side with facts and research -- that's fine. You don't want to engage in the discussion -- that's fine as well. No one is twisting your arm. Have a nice day.


Witam Boletus -- No one is forcing any views on everyone else. The discussion is interesting on several levels -- medical, cultural, social, religious, hygiene, and other aspects. No one's trolling. The crux of the issue is on the many medical benefits of neo-natal circumcision at all stages of life,from infancy with 10 x lower rates of Urinary tract infections, all the way to adulthood, with lower rates of HIV, NO Phimosis, NO Balanitis, and No penile cancer in elderly life.

When you and a few others refuse to accept the clinical, medical and scientific research and case studies involving tens of thousands of men, they resort to personal attacks and laughable points that make them look not credible and childish --


There are also some allegations that it is a barbaric Jewish and or Muslim religious practice -- which unfortunately also reinforces stereotypes about the racism and anti-semitism in Poland.

The Journal of American Medical Association, and the Center for Disease Control, and MAYO clinic report documented benefits including lower rates of cervical cancer of the female partners of circumcised men, lower rates of HIV and STDs and ten times lower rates of Urinary tract infections.

cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm
jama.ama-assn.org/content/306/13/1479.full

At the end of the day, you can believe what you want -- but you can't explain the significantly lower number of Urinary tract infections and HIV of circumcised men, and then the fact that the countries with the lowest rates of cervical cancer in the world are the exact same countries which routinely practice circumcision. It's not because they don't eat flaki or kaszanka. It is directly related to circumcision.

Ok, the older I get, the more concerned I become about my health.

I am going to circumsice myself.

How should I do it? I am mean and don`t want to pay any butcher surgeon for the operation.

Any advice?

no i didn't. get your $hit straight people. Africa was used as a point of reference by mondafinil, I responded to it.


glad someone else on here is speaking some voice of reason. i've had enough of people generalizing on here and grouping me into something i simply don't represent.

this forum continually tries to make people out to be monsters and it's unfair. you say one thing negative and suddenly anything negative that's been brought up on an entire thread magically becomes your point of view as well in their eyes. it makes carrying on a conversation pretty futile.

Actually it was brought up a couple of pages ago, but never mind.

You actually cited Africa as a good example. Ridiculously suggesting that


is somehow a citable source for complicated medical studies but incompetent to perform a particularly basic (and primitive) genital mutilation!

I was only trying to put my point across, as well - that apart from the health and medical benefits, there are other considerations. The point about Poland is just that this discussion is clearly angled towards 'Poland is backwards/somehow prejudiced because it doesn't circumcise its males routinely, as part of its national institution' - and I was siding with Poland, because I can see some strong reasons for not doing it.

Let's face it ... however much medical evidence is proposed (and there is always counter-evidence), the main issue is one of culture. And the sub-text of this whole discussion is something along the lines of 'Is Poland's refusal to circumcise, despite the obvious health benefits of this practice, not yet another example of its racism/anti-semitism/imperialism?' ... isn't it?

And I was just saying: maybe they don't circumcise because they don't like the idea of it, and it's unnatural, and seems rather cruel? And not because they are anti-semetic?


I should hope not, especially given the health risks ...

I think some of the people from the US (almost certainly victims of genital mutilation themselves) are introducing this because they don't have much else to say in favour of it.

Really, it's bizarre to confuse any underlying anti-semitism (or lack thereof) with not mutilating a child - it's hard to imagine anyone even thinking about that.

Circumcision is not practiced routinly ANYWHERE in Europe. What a lot of savages, the English, Germans, French, Italians and others. Whole lot of them!

Dzien Dobry, Jon,

The most ironic and hilarious thing of all is the ad which "randomly" appears in your post # 300. LOL> A medication to reduce the infection and swelling of Balanitis. --- A painful condition that only uncircumcised men get.

Balanitis Treatment
Terrasil® Stops Inflammation & Infection Fast. 100% Guaranteed.

AidanceProducts.com/Balanitis

How funny is that, Jon --- It stops swelling, and Infection fast. Also, it's 100 % guaranteed. Bizarre, when you talk about how those who promote circumcision as compensating for being mutilated.

Circumcised men don't ever get Balanitis, Jon -- or Phimosis, either, and they also don't ever get penile cancer either, as this is connected with the bacteria that grows under the foreskin.

Who is buying all the Terrasil, Jon?? Care to tell us?? It's not a top seller in Israel or USA or South Korea, or the Philippines.

I know the ads are random, but ironic that it shows up on the post of the one who is talking about how barbaric the practice is, and how clean the hospitals are in Africa.

natasia
Dodgefan07: no one is trying to force this ... down anyone's throat


This is really like saying -- we don't fasten our seat belts -- especially given the safety / health risks -- there have been a dozen documented cases in the last ten years where people were hurt and even killed because of the seat-belts.

Of course there are risks for any medical procedure -- root canals or getting your wisdom teeth pulled. More people have complications from root canals than have major complications from circumcision. Most of the so-called complications are minor bleeding.

The point is that the health benefits throughout life, far out weigh the risks. Just think about it Natasia, ... just look at the random ad from Jon's post # 300.

This is one of the many health and hygiene issues that circumcision prevents -- Balanitis -- Painful swelling, inflamation and infection.
Natasia, Circumcised guys DO NOT get Balanitis, or Phimosis, or Penile cancer, -- Who do you think are the ones buying Terrasil?? Think for a minute about why it is even on this site ...

Have a nice day.

I have never heard of anyone being in any way concerned about those diseases. In fact, I never heard of tow of them, period.

Apparently you circumcised guys lie in bed at night feeling pleased that you will not likely get those obscure diseases, while rapidly dying from strokes, heat disease and cancers.

Have a nice day.

well you should have!! When your colleague/worker phones in sick and says 'sory I cannot come to work I have a nasty case of balanitis...you need to know what he is talking about...

ROTFLMAO.

Like that has ever happened.

I don't think you really meant that.

Are you American by any chance? Because my response above was actually a joke. I was joking about not forcing an uncircumcised item down someone's throat, especially given the health risks.


You get root canals because of tooth decay. You get wisdom teeth pulled because of similar problems. Do you really think that a healthy foreskin needs removing like a rotten tooth ... blimey. I am sticking with the Polish guys here. In their entirety! Even if we all get balanitis and die ... we're all going to anyhow, however many preventative medical procedures we have ...

Have as nice a day as one can have, given our mortal circumstances ...

Hello Again, Natasia. No, I never said or implied that foreskins are anything like teeth, healthy or rotten. Maybe you should actually read the full post again. If all the foreskins were all so healthy as you imagine, there would not be Phimosis, or Penile cancer, and there would be tens of thousands fewer cases of balanitis, Urinary tract infections, and cervical cancer.

Furthermore, there would n't be any need for ads for Terrasil to prevent painful inflamation and infection of Balanitis on a Polish site, now would there.


I realize that you are likely being sarcastic here as well, but if you had a son or a nephew or a brother, who had urinary tract infections, you would be saying something different -- Iike the thousands of men each year who willingly get circumcised as adults, and then they realize that the sky didn't fall and all the horror stories they heard were all lies, and the vast majority are pleased with the results, and wonder why they didn't do it much sooner -- like our friend Pawian.

If you had any female friends who suffered from cervical cancer and you knew there were things that could have decreased the chances significantly for a friend of loved one, you would be saying "Do Widzenia" and dropping your Polish friends and their superstitions like a bad habit.

To pretend that you wouldn't have a small common procedure done if it meant you could have better health, or prevent multiple different diseases and symptoms, is disengenuous.

Another example is tubes in a child's ear's . Are there risks?? certainly. Are there documented health and medical benefits ?? Certainly, and after our child had multiple ear infections, the Doctor advised this and the benefits and low risk of complications far outweighed the risk of permanent hearing loss, and now our son is in Music school.

As to my ethnicity?? Not that it makes any difference in this thread -- I am very mixed -- Scots-French-Irish-American. I am not so defensive about my culture. Take care.

wrong. that simply needs to be said.

"Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland?"

Why is circumcision not practiced in any european country unless you're muslim or jew?

Just chop the whole dam thing off then there will be no problems.

I still feel that likening the removal of the foreskin to having a bad tooth removed (forget the wisdom teeth - of course I know they go for a number of reasons, not just decay) - and likening the Polish attachment to the foreskin as a 'superstition', and their 'refusal' to listen to good advice a 'bad habit' - is a very loaded way of talking about this ... and, as someone else said, it isn't just Poland - this is how Europeans generally view the subject.

I think what you are saying is that it is backwards and verging on the dangerous not to see the facts for what they are and oblige families to have this done as routine. Which is fine. That is your opinion, and it is a reasonable one. I think the issue, though, is to do with cultural practice - the business of circumcision is heavily allied to certain cultures, and has been almost forever ... see, for example, Shakespeare, where Othello talks of how he had an altercation with with 'Turk' once, and 'took by the throat / The circumcised dog, and smote him, thus ...' .

These sensitivities are probably the most interesting part of the discussion as far as the Polish angle is concerned.

My comment that I prefer the natural version is simply that - a comment. There are lots of things that it would be more sensible for me to do, but sometimes one has to express one's unfettered appreciation of something beautiful. At the risk of sharing too much, I think the operation of the foreskin is poetry in motion, and it makes me sad to think of that being interrupted. But you're right - probably much more sensible to chop it off. Actually, my brother is one of those very adults you speak of, who opted to have it removed due to problems, and is glad he did - but perhaps the important thing here is that is was his choice, as an adult. To be fair, babies and small boys aren't given the choice. Which is why in a previous comment I suggested the fairest thing might be for only 18+ men to do this, of their own free will. Hopefully they wouldn't have been excessively sexually active before this point, and given lots of women cervical cancer.

And my comment about how nice a day one can have, given our mortal limitation, wasn't sarcastic, actually. It was another pretty sad reflection. To be honest, not sure whether I'd rather have more time, and no foreskins in the world, or less time, and foreskins. It all adds up to the same in the end. We have a time limit. I guess up to us what we do within the time.

With an axe or another device?

I'm sure Dodgefan might have something clinical and appropriate.

Actually, Urszula is right: why bother with just chopping the end off - why not the whole lot? Problem then totally solved!

Dodgefan? Is that not an indisputable argument? Is that not the absolutely safest way to ensure none of us ever have any medical problems or illnesses or anything unpleasant as a result of contact with such a thing? Given that your argument for circumcision is that the foreskin causes problems, would not so many more problems be solved by total removal of the entire item??

Question: All BS aside, consider this completely insane hypothetical, for argument's sake:

10 women line up and wait for 2 men to be escorted into the room. Naked men. This will be the first men they have ever seen naked, therefore, the first naked shweens.

All dimensions/color/shape/etc. are exactly the same except:

One guy is snipped.

One guys isn't.

In your honest opinion, how many of the 10 women, after "close examination", are going to say at the end, "Yeah, I think I prefer the one with the skin sheath thingy that covers the end."

?

Are you crazy?

How many of the 10 women are going to prefer the one with the sleeve that covers the end UNTIL the (great) moment when the end decides to come out ... and then the fun begins. And afterwards, it goes nicely back into its (specially designed, protective, neat, tidy) cover, until required for use again.

as opposed to ...

one that is always out, always naked, regardless of whether it wants to be or not, and can never reveal itself, or retreat, as that option, and mystery, has all been taken away from it.

And one that has (by all accounts) a jagged ridge of scar tissue all around it. Wounded.

It is designed to come out when it is ready, and go back when it is done. Simple. Effective. Cool.

Even if I was 1 out of 10, I wouldn't care.
But I don't think I would be.

There's more 'give' when erect, with a foreskin, without which the shaft skin will be taut and motionless like a plastic dildo. Though I'm sure the extra friction may be welcome if you have a small girth.

You mean...why are a part of a baby that is natural, that he was born with and no one asks whether he would like to keep it or not is hacked off before his first diaper is dirtied?

Hello Natasia,
You're kidding again, right??? This is a canard that doesn't even pass the laugh test. Let's just run down this little trail of fallacious logic, shall we?? Following your logic, if there is one tiny speck of a cavity, then just remove the whole tooth, and if we follow that same logic, if anyone has mastitis or any other issue of the breast, then just cut the entire thing off.

Aside from the fact that cutting off the entire penis would not only eliminate all pleasure to the penis in sex, it would also totally prohibit procreation. The issue here is not the entire penis, and or the testicles. It's not even the issue that many millions of men have no issues of Phimosis or Balanitis, or Urinary tract infections, etc.

You don't really think or believe that cutting off the foot is the logical solution for people with ingrown toenails, plantars warts, or feet rashes. Your argument is disingenuous and dishonest.

The one thing we do agree on is that there are lots of cultural issues that play a part as well. I don't expect that you will change your mind, or that most Poles will change your mind, because it is part of Catholic dogma and tradition, and more than just simply looking at the research.


Witam, Modafinil, Your statement is bogus and a canard, -- wrapped in an ad hominum. First of all, just for everyone keeping score at home, being circumcised or not has nothing whatsoever to do with girth size, but you knew that already, right?? wink wink. So your attempt to suggest circumcised people have smaller penises is juvenile.

Secondly, you can talk about a foreskin, but your statement "There's more 'give' when erect, with a foreskin, without which the shaft skin will be taut and motionless like a plastic dildo" , is vulgar and medically incorrect.

Using profanity and fables or intentionally false statements, all make your arguments weak. Masters and Johnson are the world's leaders in sexual related research and they state that there is no decrease in sexual pleasure and many men who were circumcised as adults report increased sexual pleasure.

What's more, I know it's totally random, but the ad here, for Terrasil is for guys who are uncircumcised and have Balanitis.
Modanifil, this product is 100% guaranteed to stop painful swelling and infection. Circumcised guys don't ever use or need this product. Take care.

'First of all, just for everyone keeping score at home', The American medical community no longer(but once did) recommend the cut.
Ad hominem?? Who said I was talking about you? ( Now that the mods have become so much stricter...)


No. Even dumbed-down wikipedia says that a amputating the foreskin leaves a woman drier. A circumcised penis is undoubtedly less animated. It's just up or down. Hard or soft. There's no peek-a-boo.


I googled for it. 40 yr old data that wasn't even peer reviewed and brought up more criticism of their research more than anything else. Did you know they also claimed the size doesn't matter? Increased senses? Less say it increased than not(Again from wikipedia). In the UK(nhs) it is a treatment of last resort and the primary reason for not doing so is reduced sensitivity during sex.


Yes, that's great there isn't the need for surgery, that it is so easy to get rid of instead of the drastic surgical measure. Though I wash mine; the cause is poor hygene not the foreskin. Did you know you can halve the chance of testicular cancer by having a ball cut off. Though I will only have my hair and nails cut - dead matter not living flesh.

Well done. You noticed : )


Gosh, am I Catholic, then? Nobody ever told me (especially not the priest who christened me C of E).

Dogma ... there is also such a thing as medical dogma.


To be honest, I think this is surely only someone who has experience of being both uncircumcised and then circumcised can then comment on.

Dodgefan, you are getting yourself very worked up about this. You are adamant that you are right. You think anybody who thinks otherwise has absolutely no grounds whatsoever for their opinion. You won't accept that there is anything to be said for keeping something natural, that a baby has no choice, that there is any possibility that a foreskin could have benefits or a purpose at all apart from making people ill or dirty, or that we all might like foreskins not because of any religious doctrine, but because we thing it is horrific to cut it off a little baby and then for a guy forever to spend his life having to justify why he hasn't got what he was given ... why he has never ever had the experience of a foreskin. So I guess we all just have to beg to differ.


... but do listen to Modafinil, because he is a voice of reason (regardless of his religious affiliation or nationality).