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Poland's birthrate on the decline


Bobko 11 | 1,119
19 Jun 2022 #31
Is class only about money?

Economic classes, I would argue yes - Jon. Is man's worth calculated in dollars and cents - of course not. Is material success a reflection on one's intelligence - absolutely not. As a Russian, you don't have to explain to me the nuances in the differences of terminology, and what it means to be an Eastern European интеллигент. Most of my cousins back home, who work for $1,500 a month, would blow the socks off any guy I work with in the States who calmly collects $200K a year. Life is not fair, and money is not a good measuring stick.
GefreiterKania 15 | 1,690
19 Jun 2022 #32
Don't worry, I will do it soon, and more than just two :)

:)

*fingers crossed*

We live once...

... but forever. That's the point - we are immortals. We live here, in this vale of tears, for 75 years or so but our souls are immortal. But THAT is definitely off-topic here. :)
jon357 71 | 21,060
19 Jun 2022 #33
worth

I'd say that it's not even about material worth. More about the way people live and who they associate with.

That and attitudes to life, behaviour etc. Mentioning an amount of a salary (one's own it sometime else's) would immediately fix someone s, at best, lower middle class.

Social circles and class do have a relevance to birthrate. One finds at the top of the tree and at the bottom having larger families and rhapsody in the middle more cautious.
Paulina 13 | 3,781
19 Jun 2022 #34
Why are Polish women opting out of their job as breeders today ?

You make me sick.

This made urban families change their calculus and lower the number of children to 1-2

I think also a lack of space played a role and still does. In the countryside people usually live in houses, often with a few rooms and in the city - small flats.

your selfishness

Didn't it cross your mind that not all people are cut out to be parents? To be honest, when I look at my parents' generation and at what my neighbours are like, I'm thinking that many people in Poland shouldn't have children. But they're having them anyway, because you're supposed to have kids. And they produce damaged, broken people. They're the ones who are being selfish, because they don't care what they're doing to their kids.
Bobko 11 | 1,119
19 Jun 2022 #35
One finds at the top of the tree and at the bottom having larger families

This is actually not true, at least regarding the top. As someone who studied early modern demographics, I can confirm. In the past, very wealthy people tended to have more children than others on average. In the present, the situation is reversed.
jon357 71 | 21,060
19 Jun 2022 #36
In the UK, less so. Remember that 'the top' there, though rarely poor, are about farmland and/or public service rather than anything else. Those do breed.

There are elements of that in Poland too.
Bobko 11 | 1,119
19 Jun 2022 #37
breed

Nasty word.

Mentioning an amount of a salary (one's own it sometime else's) would immediately fix someone

Don't really see this anywhere else in the world, other than America. A vulgar quality they unfortunately have. In principle I agree, if you have to say how much you earn, or are actually able to say how much money you have at moment - the likelihood is that your successes thus far have been rather modest in the grand scale of things.
Paulina 13 | 3,781
19 Jun 2022 #38
her academic "career" and complete her PhD thesis on "Latvian cutlery in the 17th century" or something equally important, I would be a rich man.

Yes, GF, women have dreams too. And ambitions. We want to feel fulfilled in life too - not just men. We're human beings too and not just some "breeders" and nannies for your children.

If sh*t hits the fan it's usually the women that ends up qith all the care for the kids.

Yes, and this brings me to GefreiterKania's accusation of "selfishness". It's funny that it always comes from men together with all that whining about women not wanting to "breed" anymore. It's easy for men to be "non-selfish" considering that it's usually the women who have to make all the sacrifices.

Mass media, popular culture, decline of Christianity - we all know that. Family has moved down the list compared to "career

My mother was raised in the countryside and is a religious Catholic. She grew up during communism with no TV. And yet she was absolutely anal about me getting an education and a good job.
Miloslaw 14 | 4,660
19 Jun 2022 #39
JR said "Why are Polish women opting out of their job as breeders today ?"

Paulina said "You make me sick."

Jim makes us all sick with his thick and sick opinions.
OP johnny reb 37 | 7,613
19 Jun 2022 #40
You make me sick.

... but cutting them up and throwing the pieces - all still warm and bloody - into the garbage makes you feel good. Right ?
Miloslaw 14 | 4,660
19 Jun 2022 #41
Why have Polish women opted out of parenting ?

Why are you targeting Polish women when the same is happening in the USA?

@johnny reb

All the other social faults you raise are actually bigger problems in America than in Poland.
Why don't you address the obvious problems in your own country before attacking lesser problems in Poland?
jon357 71 | 21,060
19 Jun 2022 #42
Nasty word.

The genuinely posh use the language of the farmyard or stable. Breed is a relatively delicate word compared to some.

One thing is striking in this thread; that the are people who think population growth to be a good thing. Even though the planet's resources are stretched already.
Miloslaw 14 | 4,660
19 Jun 2022 #43
. It's easy for men to be "non-selfish" considering that it's usually the women who have to make all the sacrifices

Spot on!

people who think population growth to be a good thing.

They are paranoid nuts who fear that their white population will soon be overrun by darker skinned people because their women don't want to have children.

Nuckle dragging Neanderthals come to mind.
OP johnny reb 37 | 7,613
19 Jun 2022 #44
Even though the planet's resources are stretched already.

Not true at all joun, only the alphabet people believe that.
Population collapse is potentially the greatest risk to the future of civilization........next to the sun that will eventually burn the earth up.
Most people think we have too many people on the planet, but actually, this is an outdated view.
I encourages educated people to have more kids.
Less people having kids will lead to more elderly people, who will in turn create a heavier burden on the younger working age group.
And what a prettier sight than to see a woman that is do to freshin'. :-)
Miloslaw 14 | 4,660
19 Jun 2022 #45
And what a prettier sight than to see a woman that is do to freshin

Speak English please.
OP johnny reb 37 | 7,613
19 Jun 2022 #46
You need to learn how to spell first.

They are paranoid who fear that their white population will soon be overrun by darker skinned people because their women don't want to have children.

Actually you may be onto something here, Yipper.

White fertility rates:
Italy 1.22
Spain 1.27
Poland 1.40
Germany 1.57

Black fertility rates:
Niger 6.8
Angola 5.8
Congo 5.6
Chad 5.4

With the UK turning into Africa, is this why joun left for Poland ?
AntV 5 | 733
19 Jun 2022 #47
hopeful fatalism, but still fatalism. Perhaps you need a bit of an American

But, GK's idea of leaving a better future for your children is very much an American idea, as well. American culture was always about building a better tomorrow. On a micro-level that meant a better future for one's children. Only recently is that becoming less prominent in the US, which might be a contributor to some of the decline we've had over past two decades.

It's not fatalism, at all; rather it's a constructive optimism and a sense of duty to enduring prosperity and well-being. So, I'd say GK has some American in him already. :)
cms neuf - | 2,220
19 Jun 2022 #48
So I decided I want more kids but my wife doesn't so if anyone is interested then PM me
jon357 71 | 21,060
19 Jun 2022 #49
They are paranoid nuts who fear that their white population

A lot of them, yes.

They think it makes some sort of difference.
Paulina 13 | 3,781
19 Jun 2022 #50
... but cutting them up and throwing the pieces - all still warm and bloody - into the garbage makes you feel good. Right ?

I see abortion is your idée fixe. Not having children doesn't equal abortion. Contraception is enough. And married couples with kids use contraception too if they don't want to have more kids than they already do.
OP johnny reb 37 | 7,613
20 Jun 2022 #51
I see abortion is your idée fixe.

You are projecting again, P.
You are the one who is Pro-Abortion, not I.
You said that I make you sick because of what I said about women opting out of having children so I was responding how you make me sick by

... cutting them up and throwing the pieces - all still warm and bloody - into the garbage makes you feel good. Right ?

Yes
OP johnny reb 37 | 7,613
20 Jun 2022 #52
Not having children doesn't equal abortion. Contraception is enough.

Hence no need for abortions. The morning after pill takes care of rapes.
Don't you agree ?
Society is a living organism and like all living things has a God given instinct of self preservation.
A woman may want to kill her "fetus" but society does not have to assist her, just like a parent does not have to provide a gun to a suicidal kid.
GefreiterKania 15 | 1,690
20 Jun 2022 #53
I didn't reply earlier because I was banned from posting on PF for 85k seconds. It was probably because I suggested that we should make tender love to moderators, although I'm not entirely sure. :)

Anyway... @Lenka and @Paulina

Explaining to you how much you are wrong would take me a lot of time and, honestly, I couldn't be arsed. However, let me just take this opportunity to say that I wish that one day both of you will have lovely, beautiful and smart kids and that they will be the light of your lives. You are both intelligent women (and you know I have a soft spot for intelligent women) and it would be a pity if you didn't multiply. All best procreative wishes, ladies! :)
Lenka 3 | 2,861
20 Jun 2022 #54
However, let me just take this opportunity to say that I wish that one day both of you will have lovely, beautiful and smart kids

Who said we don't?
Paulina 13 | 3,781
20 Jun 2022 #56
You are the one who is Pro-Abortion, not I.

What does it mean "pro-abortion"? If you're talking about abortion on demand then I've never been in favour of that and I stated that on PF more than once.

Hence no need for abortions. The morning after pill takes care of rapes.
Don't you agree ?

It depends. From what I've read you have to take that pill within a limited time frame for it to work (72 hours). I'm guessing that after that time one would have to have an abortion.

And no, what made me sick was the way you wrote about women.

@GefreiterKania, I'm wrong about what exactly? That women are human beings too?

I wish that one day both of you will have lovely, beautiful and smart kids and that they will be the light of your lives.

I'm not sure if I'm reading you right, but I'm getting an impression that you think I'm against having kids or something... I'm not o_O And it doesn't look to me that Lenka is against having kids either.
Lyzko 36 | 8,457
20 Jun 2022 #57
Does Poland support the use of abortion if only in order to protect a woman's life?
GefreiterKania 15 | 1,690
21 Jun 2022 #58
Who said we don't?

I thought it was rather evident from your posts but, of course, I am very happy if it's not the case. :)

I'm getting an impression that you think I'm against having kids

Well, maybe not against having kids per se but it would seem, correct me if I'm wrong, that you consider things like "career" and "ambitions" to be more important than having children. Again, I'm delighted if it's not the case. :)
Lenka 3 | 2,861
21 Jun 2022 #59
I thought it was rather evident from your posts

Just because someone understands the challenges doesn't mean they are in the same boat.

you consider things like "career" and "ambitions" to be more important than having children

And that wouldn't be surprising. A women can have dreams beside raising a family. Maybe if man were more willing to put their ambition aside to raise the kids women wouldn't have to make such choices?
GefreiterKania 15 | 1,690
21 Jun 2022 #60
A women can have dreams beside raising a family.

"Beside" is quite all right; "instead" not so much.

if man were more willing to put their ambition aside to raise the kids women wouldn't have to make such choices?

Everyone has to make choices, both women and men. The point is to have right hierarchy of values, so that the choices we make are also right.


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