Automobiles vs. Pedestrians in Poland

6 Jan 2012 #31

Then you calculate the ratio per 1000 people and you have a stats :

and very misleading ones at that in my opinion.
Why wouldn't you acknowledge the number of registered vehicles instead of total population when putting your faith in these stats?
In less organized societies that doesn't work so well but in the E.U. community it ought to be standard.

polmed 1 | 216

6 Jan 2012 #32

By the way, enjoy this graph:

What does it show Sherlock ?

Harry

6 Jan 2012 #33

and very misleading ones at that in my opinion.
Why wouldn't you acknowledge the number of registered vehicles instead of total population when putting your faith in these stats?

Clearly her 'statistics' are designed to be misleading.

Let's see what experts have to say about Poland, The Global Road Safety Partnership might be a good place to start:

Five years after Poland Joined the European Union, the country is still undergoing large scale economic and social changes. Economic growth over the past decade and increased trade have led to a rapid increase in motorisation rates and traffic.

As a result, road crash death and injury rates are also much higher than the EU average.
...

Though Poland has undergone rapid motorization in the last decade, concerted efforts of government, civil society and the private sector has led to considerable progress, with the number of road traffic fatalities decreasing by 1/3 in the last decade. In 2006, for example, there were 46,876 crashes resulting in injuries (3,7% less fewer in 2005).

Still, Poland's road crash statistics are high compared to the rest of Europe as road crashes continue to take a huge toll on Polish society and on the economy. Annual costs of road crashes are estimated at PLN 30 billion.

grsproadsafety.org/page-poland-31.html

polmed 1 | 216

6 Jan 2012 #34

In less organized societies

What does less organized mean ?

We are better organized than you country I guess.

Harry

6 Jan 2012 #35

What does it show Sherlock ?

Surely a lawyer can read a graph?

The graph shows that Poland has three times as many people per million inhabitants killed in road accidents than the UK (despite having few cars per million people).

hythorn 3 | 580

6 Jan 2012 #36

in order to answer the question of automobiles vs pedestrians in Poland, the winner appears to be automobiles

they seem to be very good at killing pedestrians

particularly in Poland which is the undisputed European heavyweight champ when it comes to butchering pedestrians

read 'em and weep

To compare the pedestrian fatality numbers of different countries
the respective population size has been taken into account (see
Table 2). The rate varies from 5,5 pedestrian fatalities per million
inhabitants in Sweden to 46,0 pedestrian fatalities by million
inhabitants in Poland, a rate which is more than 8 times higher.

ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/specialist/knowledge/pdf/bfs 2007_sn-kfv-1-3-pedestrians.pdf

it seems that combining drunk pedestrians, bloody minded motorists and poorly maintained and unlit roads appears to have been a bit of a recipe for disaster

can't see why

polmed 1 | 216

6 Jan 2012 #37

Let's see what experts have to say about Poland, The Global Road Safety Partnership might be a good place to start:

What is it? A profit sharing corp?

My data comes form this : unece.org/about-unece.html
The United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) was set up in 1947 by ECOSOC. It is one of five regional commissions of the United Nations.

UNECE's major aim is to promote pan-European economic integration. To do so, it brings together 56 countries located in the European Union, non-EU Western and Eastern Europe, South-East Europe and Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) and North America. All these countries dialogue and cooperate under the aegis of UNECE on economic and sectoral issues. . However, all interested United Nations member States may participate in the work of UNECE. Over 70 international professional organizations and other non-governmental organizations take part in UNECE activities.

Whose source is more reliable ?

Harry

6 Jan 2012 #38

What is it? A profit sharing corp?

Yet more lies from Monia.

The Global Road Safety Partnership (GRSP) brings together governments and governmental agencies, the private sector and civil society organisations to address road safety issues in low and middle income countries. GRSP is a hosted programme of the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies (IFRC), based in Geneva.

grsproadsafety.org/page-introduction-3.html

Whose source is more reliable ?

According to your source, not even a single cyclist was injured in Poland in 2009. So I wonder which source is more reliable!

polmed 1 | 216

6 Jan 2012 #39

The graph shows that Poland has three times as many people per million inhabitants killed in road accidents than the UK (despite having few cars per million people).

Giving only death fatalities data doesn`t show the overall view, because it shows only that rescue forces can`t come in time to save lifes of those injured thanks to poverty and other factors which you can`t blame drivers for . Only data showing number of accidents is valuable if it comes to road safety . In Germany there are less fatal accidents for sure per capita , but it doesn`t depend on the skills of drivers or great caution of pedestrians . The density and the equipement of hospitals matters more in such cases .

Wroclaw 44 | 5359

6 Jan 2012 #40

it doesn't matter how many cars per million. all that matters is that Poles kill more than anyone else on the roads, apart from lithuania.

so it is reasonable to say that Poles are among the worst drivers in europe.

i find it odd that in twenty years i've only met one Polish person who has taken an advanced driving course here. most Poles don't even know that such a thing exists.

GabiHun

6 Jan 2012 #41

Here's the European commisstion basic statics.

ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/pdf/statistics/2009_transport_mode_except_cars.pdf (broken link)

Here's some data I made form that, annoyingly forum won't let me post in tables.

Country:::::_number of pedestrian fatalities 2009_:::_population_:::_deaths per 100,000_:::::::Jay Walking fine
Kýpros_______________________________________80_____803,147___________ _______9.96______________yes
România___________________________________1,015_____22,303,552________ _______4.55 _______________?
Polska____________________________________ 1,467_____38,625,478_______________3.80_______________ yes
Latvija_______________________________________82_____2,366,515________ _______3.47_______________yes
Slovensko___________________________________113_____5,422,366_________ ______2.08_______________yes
Magyarország________________________________186_____10,075,034________ _______1.85_______________yes
Elláda_______________________________________202_____11,606,813_______ _______1.74_______________ ?
Eesti________________________________________23_____1,415,681 ________ _______1.62_______________yes
Portugal____________________________________155_____10,617,192________ _______1.46_______________?
Österreich__________________________________101______8,169,929 _______ ________1.24_______________yes
Luxembourg__________________________________6 ______512,000___________ ______1.17_______________yes
Slovenija___________________________________24_______2,048,847 _______ ________1.17_______________yes
Éire/Ireland_________________________________49_______4,234,925_______ ________ 1.16_______________no
Italia_____________________________________648_______59,715,625_______ ________1.09_______________no
España____________________________________470_____ _46,777,373________ _______1.00_______________yes
Belgique/België_____________________________101_______10,274,595______ _________0.98_______________yes
Danmark___________________________________52_______5,368,854__________ _____ 0.97_______________yes
United Kingdom____________________________524_______60,587,000 ______________ _0.86___________no
France___________________________________496_______63,601,002_________ ______ 0.78___________no
Deutschland_______________________________591_______82,217,800________ _______0.72___________yes
Suomi/Finland______________________________30________5,302,545________ _______0.57____________yes/no
Sverige___________________________________45________9,076,744_________ ______0.50___________no
Nederland_________________________________63________16,746,600________ _______0.38___________no

So actually Poland is the second most dangerous place for pedestrians and all countries that don't have Jay-walking laws come in the "safer" half of the table.

Wroclaw 44 | 5359

6 Jan 2012 #42

The density and the equipement of hospitals matters more in such cases .

you are clutching at straws.

the point is that Poles have more accidents.

delphiandomine 86 | 17823

6 Jan 2012 #43

and all countries that don't have Jay-walking laws come in the "safer" half of the table.

Could it be because those countries actually bother to enforce driving laws?

Nothing to do with the laws on jaywalking, and everything to do with lack of enforcement.

Interestingly, Australia is safe, yet has quite strong jaywalking laws.

Harry

6 Jan 2012 #44

Could it be because those countries actually bother to enforce driving laws?

Poland does enforce driving law sometimes. I know a guy who got send down for six months for riding a bicycle across a road while disqualified from driving (after his licence was taken away he sold his car and bought a mountain bike, which he rode across fields to get places, but sometimes he had to cross roads and he apparently didn't always get off to push his bike over them). But I also know a guy who caused a near fatal accident while driving while disqualified (disqualified for driving while disqualified and having been disqualified in the first place for speeding and causing accidents), no action at all was taken against him.

polmed 1 | 216

6 Jan 2012 #45

Also a major factor in road fatal accidents plays road density, ( Poland has got rather high indicator of km of roads per square km which makes the ranking less favorable in fatal accidents ,the simple calculation : more roads more possible accidents , but also longer way to hospital . This is important for Poland as Polands roads are mostly not highways so the time to reach a hospital is longer . Sometimes the distance form a certain accident place can be more than 100 km from a hospital . So the emergency crew has to make double this road to bring an injured person to the hospital and that time may be not enough to save someone`s life . An ambulances in Poland have to travel mostly on local roads not highways like it is in Germany so it makes a big difference .

data.worldbank.org/indicator/IS.ROD.DNST.K2

The indicator of read density for :
Poland is 123
for Germany 180
France 173
Norway - 29
Sweden - 128
USA - 68
Austria - 132
Greece - 88

Wroclaw 44 | 5359

6 Jan 2012 #46

more roads more possible accidents , but also longer way to hospital

no. more bad drivers, more possible accidents, but also more deaths at the scene. your figures mean nothing.

delphiandomine 86 | 17823

6 Jan 2012 #47

An ambulances in Poland have to travel mostly on local roads not highways like it is in Germany so it makes a big difference .

Really?

Perhaps you'd like to explain why the figures for Scotland aren't comparable to Poland then, despite having some of the most isolated areas in Europe?

Harry

6 Jan 2012 #48

Could it be because those countries actually bother to enforce driving laws?

According to the Polish Road and Safety Association, to move a car in completely safety you need three conditions:

* Safe roads,

* Safe vehicles,

* Safe road users.

Their studies shows that the first two criteria are the cause of only 10% of all accidents or collisions. According to them the most common causes of accidents are speeding, alcohol, bravado.

Given that Poles generally like a drink, often are given to excessive displays of bravado and don't do much to enforce speed limits, it's surprising that they don't have more accidents!

polmed 1 | 216

6 Jan 2012 #49

no. more bad drivers, more possible accidents, but also more deaths at the scene. your figures mean nothing.

My answer is whatever suits you the best . They are not my figures BTW .

Those who understand the numbers can have their opinion .

Polish drivers are very good drives in overall overview ,but sometimes we drive too daringly.

Some drivers drive after drinking which is too common and deplarable . But also pedestrians don`t obey the rules in quite few cases .

pam

6 Jan 2012 #50

only just picked up on this thread so apologies in advance if i am repeating what other posters might have said. i can only speak from experience when i have been in poland. automobiles rule at least as far as marked crossings go. living in england, most drivers stop at zebra crossings. didnt take me long to work out that polacy quite often dont. my survival strategy was to wait until lots of people crossed the road at the same time, hoping i would be safer..lol! dont know if this is true or not , but i heard that you can be fined in poland for crossing the road other than at designated marked crossings. any truth in this?

Wroclaw 44 | 5359

6 Jan 2012 #51

any truth in this?

all answered in the thread.

Foreigner4 12 | 1768

7 Jan 2012 #52

What does less organized mean ?

What the hell do you think it means?

We are better organized than you country I guess.

Why do "you" get to be people but where I'm from is a "thing?" It's not my country either, I don't control the people within it so how could it be mine? I don't own the land there beyond what the average citizen does so how could the rest of it be mine? I don't even know most of the people who live there so how could they be mine?

Countries aren't single entities that can be quantified in the manner you're attempting. The society within any geographic boundaries is much more complex thing than to just call it a thing- I reject your statement on the grounds that it actually doesn't make sense. The language you've used doesn't support your thinking.

wielki pan 2 | 250

7 Jan 2012 #53

Their studies shows that the first two criteria are the cause of only 10% of all accidents or collisions. According to them the most common causes of accidents are speeding, alcohol, bravado. Source (Polish only).

Whereas I agree that roads and vehicle play a important part in reducing road accidents, zero tolerance by the Police would also help, road deaths in advanced countries have decreased due the skill of ambulance and high level of care at hospitals....I do think Polands level of a ambulance and hospital care is that crash hot! (no pun intended)

delphiandomine 86 | 17823

7 Jan 2012 #54

zero tolerance by the Police would also help

It would help a lot. I'm almost certain that if we saw the formation of dedicated traffic police units, funded entirely by fines - we would see a huge decrease in stupid behaviour, especially if it was tasked with stamping out dangerous moves.

I even know myself - last night, compulsory right turn - but the road was empty and I could make a left turn (that I wanted to make). What did I do? Made a left turn, of course - the fine/points simply weren't enough of a deterrent, combined with the knowledge that the police are highly unlikely to be there, or care.

teflcat 5 | 1024

7 Jan 2012 #55

dedicated traffic police units, funded entirely by fines

Steady on. That sounds like a recipe for abuse and corruption. I agree that the cops do very little to combat bad driving and, let's face it, when the weather is bad, you know they won't be around!

What kills me is that they seem to ignore cyclists dressed in dark clothing and without lights. I once saw a police van slowly overtake three such cyclists without stopping.

delphiandomine 86 | 17823

7 Jan 2012 #56

Steady on. That sounds like a recipe for abuse and corruption.

I'd be looking at doing it properly - everything backed up with video evidence. All they'd need to do would be to put a few unmarked cars around and bust people for all the absolutely awful things that you see every day. But - I'd rather see them deal with the diabolical parking that you see.

What kills me is that they seem to ignore cyclists dressed in dark clothing and without lights. I once saw a police van slowly overtake three such cyclists without stopping.

I don't get it as well - I've seen police cars doing speed checks on busy roads where cyclists are banned, and yet they won't stop the (invariably) old man on a bike who seems to be utterly oblivious that he shouldn't be there.

Always thought that one of the scourges of Polish roads are the villagers who cycle (often a bit drunk) very slowly on main roads.

Harry

7 Jan 2012 #57

Just in case anybody had any doubt at all about the safety of Polish roads, the figures for last weekend have been released: 250 accidents, 31 people dead and 305 injured. In one weekend. Oh, and 945 drunk drivers.

gumishu 15 | 6183

7 Jan 2012 #58

Always thought that one of the scourges of Polish roads are the villagers who cycle (often a bit drunk) very slowly on main roads.

you know some of these places don't have other 'cycleable' roads - they are just a one-street village and that street happens to be the main intercity road (and many lack sidewalk) - what do you do if you need to go to the neighbouring village on the same road - go through the mud of the field roads? and how many kilometeres of cycle paths beside such roads have you seen in Poland if any? - don't you think people would be using cycle paths if they were present

next consideration is (it is just me though) - I often went on cycle tours - after some 15 km in your legs when you go through a village you don't bother to ride on the pavement/sidewalk because of couple of things: one thing - there is often broken glass on Polish sidewalks, the next thing they are not an easy ride - (sometimes even hardly suitable for cycling) - electricity posts in the middle, road signs in the middle, ups and downs and sometimes high margins, people walking - not fun at all - also the paved surface is much harder to cycle on then the tarmac - if the road isn't as narrow as to make two lorries hardly pass by on the oposite lanes then I just stick to the road

Harry

7 Jan 2012 #59

they are just a one-street village and that street happens to be the main intercity road (and many lack sidewalk) - what do you do if you need to go to the neighbouring village on the same road

I have fond memories of a research trip somewhere in south east Poland. We were on a fairly majorish road, which did have a pavement, came round a corner to find an extremely old Polish pushing an even older woman in a wheelchair down the middle of the road. I swerved to avoid her and nearly stuffed the car into a horse-drawn cart which was coming the other way. Fun stuff.

gumishu 15 | 6183

7 Jan 2012 #60

and how many kilometeres of cycle paths beside such roads have you seen in Poland if any? - don't you think people would be using cycle paths if they were present

btw - you begin to love the Netherlands the next moment you have managed to get your bottom onto a bike saddle - cycle paths everywhere (OK almost everywhere) - and all tarmac