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Poland's citizenship by descent question. Polish great-great grandfather arrived in the USA as a kid.


Pan T. K.
27 May 2018 #31
A Polish citizen has a constitutional right to live abroad or in Poland, as well as right to be free from discrimination because his family rejected communism. There is no requirement that a person who was born a Polish citizen ever learn Polish. Traditionally, before the communists, Poland was a multi-lingual place. Any Polish citizen has a right to a passport, to vote, to own property, etc. There is no requirement for any Polish citizen to reside in Poland for these rights to be recognized, ever. Anyone suggesting such nonsense is ignorant of the rights of natural born Polish citizens, or plainly hostile to them.
kaprys 3 | 2,374
27 May 2018 #32
Heritage and citizenship are two different things.
Why would people whose families have not had much to do with Poland for a hundred years or more be entitled to the citizenship?
If they're really interested, they should definitely come and try living here. If they like it, why not apply to the citizenship?
Pan T. K.
27 May 2018 #33
Why would people whose families have not had much to do with Poland for a hundred years or more be entitled to the citizenship?

Because its the law, and their families were exiles due to over 53 years of military occupation. Poland has a history of its exiles returning to Mother Poland. There is a right of return, but it can be difficult and expensive to do.

A better question is why has Poland's present government not yet followed Orban's model and reversed Tusk's complicated citizenship law?
mafketis 23 | 8,415
27 May 2018 #34
A Polish citizen has a constitutional right to live abroad or in Poland

True, but only once they actually have citizenship. Permanent residence with a fast track to citizenship is quite generous enough (and sorts out those who are really interested in Poland rather than their own travel plans).
kaprys 3 | 2,374
27 May 2018 #35
It's been almost 30 years since the fall of communism. Quite a few years since Tusk was the prime minister.
Anyone interested in living in free Poland and getting the citizenship would have got it following the rules.
Pan T. K.
27 May 2018 #36
WARNING: THREAD HIJACKING IN PROGRESS!

True, but only once they actually have citizenship.

More nonsense from someone, and not the only one giving advice in this thread who never underwent the process of determining Polish citizenship, or the loss thereof...

A person born to a Polish citizen, is a Polish citizen. It's in the Polish constitution. The issue is the process to have the rights of citizenship recognized subsequently such that the present Polish state acquiesces to the free exercise of citizenship rights IN POLAND from the families of political exiles from communism. So, this is not about a "fast tract to citizenship", but rather the slow tracking of citizenship rights that one held from birth by a hostile bureaucracy which has remained in the communist tradition.
Pan T. K.
27 May 2018 #37
Anyone interested in living in free Poland and getting the citizenship would have got it following the rules.

This is clearly not a person who claimed citizenship by descent, nor does she know the difficulties experienced by those who have. Again, there is no requirement that a person born a Polish citizen need live in Poland for years, without voting and other rights, to get a passport, own property, etc. Unfortunately, Polish lawyers, not agents in Poland, are often needed to vindicate such rights.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,267
27 May 2018 #38
hostile bureaucracy

The bureaucracy isn't hostile at all. If you're entitled to Polish citizenship, you can get it easily. The problem arises when self-important foreigners think that they're entitled to a Polish passport because their last name ends in 'ski', without any documented proof of them actually holding Polish citizenship. Such people tend to rant on about how Poland is failing them, when in reality, they have no claim to Polish citizenship.

One other thing that's quite notable about such people is that they had no interest in Polish citizenship before Poland joined the EU.
Pan T. K.
27 May 2018 #39
If you're entitled to Polish citizenship, you can get it easily.

More disinformation from a hijacker, who himself is not ethnically Polish, and did not claim citizenship by descent. Unlike Orban's Hungary, or other places in Europe like Germany or Italy, citizenship by descent in Poland can be quite difficult, expensive, and time consuming. Understand that the process can be long and expensive at present and a Polish lawyer knowledgeable about citizenship and Polish constitutional law may be required. Don't think the process will be easy or cheap.
kaprys 3 | 2,374
27 May 2018 #40
Citizenship by descent - when your parent had Polish citizenship, not your greatgrandparent.
People who aren't or weren't ethnically Polish might have had Polish citizenship.
I bet there are also ethnic Poles who don't have it.
If you can't change the law and you are really devoted to getting Polish citizenship, follow the rules.
Pan T. K.
27 May 2018 #41
If you can't change the law and you are really devoted to getting Polish citizenship,

No, this thread isn't about getting Polish citizenship. More nonsense and wasted space on the server.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,267
27 May 2018 #42
I bet there are also ethnic Poles who don't have it.

There are, there's quite a few that have the Karta Polaka instead of citizenship, especially in Belarus but not only.

If you can't change the law and you are really devoted to getting Polish citizenship, follow the rules.

The rules are designed to keep out fraudsters, which is why the government tightened up the law surrounding the Karta Polaka recently. If someone cannot clearly demonstrate a link to Polish citizenship, they're not getting it. No need to access imaginary archives that Tusk personally locked up, you only need to get birth certificates to prove the claim.
Pan T. K.
27 May 2018 #43
WARNING: THREAD HIJACKING IN PROGRESS!

No, this thread isn't about the Karta Polaka.
jon357 63 | 15,214
27 May 2018 #44
The bureaucracy isn't hostile at all. If you're entitled to Polish citizenship, you can get it easily.

It's very straightforward. You just have to be in the country legally for long enough and be able to prove that, keep your nose clean, pay your taxes etc and pass a straightforward language exam.

If you can't change the law and you are really devoted to getting Polish citizenship, follow the rules.

My feelings too. It isn't that hard for people who live in PL, and no real reason that somebody who lives elsewhere would need it. If someone is from abroad yet lives in a Polish milieu and speaks the language, follows traditions etc, they'd already have enough of a tangible connection to be able to get it anyway.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,267
27 May 2018 #45
From what I know, if you have a pretty solid connection like that, including involvement in Polonia organisations, then getting citizenship via the President is a formality.

You just have to be in the country legally for long enough and be able to prove that, keep your nose clean, pay your taxes etc

I suppose if you run up astronomical debts to ZUS or US, there's no way you're going to get citizenship.

The language exam is a piece of cake too.
jon357 63 | 15,214
28 May 2018 #46
if you have a pretty solid connection like that, including involvement

This can indeed help; there are a number of 'soft' factors including exceptional academic achievement, being a government employee and having certain investments.

I suppose if you run up astronomical debts to ZUS or US

The paperwork really does have to be belt and braces correct, as does the legal basis for your presence in PL (basically no gaps of anomalies).
JBU1987
28 May 2018 #47
I'm sure my question is similar to others, but here goes.

My father was born in Poland in 1953. He came to Canada in the 70's. Became a Canadian citizen and had a Canadian passport. I was born in Canada in 1987. As I'm understanding it he would still have been a Polish citizen as well?? Therefore I would also be a Polish citizen by blood? Any information would be much appreciated.
terri 1 | 1,665
29 May 2018 #48
JBU1987.
Start collecting any and all documents which prove your father's birth, his school records, his church records, everything and anything you can. I am not sure whether a Canadian can have dual nationality - but check. Once you have got all that try to get your citizenship/nationality confirmed. Go to Urzad Wojewodzki in the town and start the procedures. All your Canadian documents have to be translated into Polish by a sworn translator and you need copies of everything. They take the copies but need to have a look at the originals.
thesipguy 3 | 27
6 Jun 2018 #49
Citizenship by descent - when your parent had Polish citizenship, not your greatgrandparent.

You are correct that the parents need to have Polish citizenship, but if the great grandparent was Polish there is a chance the children are too, my children for example got Polish citizenship because their great grandfather was Polish, My grandfather was Polish and I inherited the citizenship and so did my kids.

The rule is that it cant skip a generation, so if in the middle there as a person who wasn't qualified for citizenship or has lost citizenship prior to the birth of the next generation, or girls under 18 that her father lost his citizenship prior to 1951 then the future generations are not qualified.
Pan T. K.
8 Jun 2018 #50
And when the constitution state that there is a right to live abroad, then a presumption that those living abroad must have somehow lost their citizenship violates the constitution, and is a form of discrimination, which is also banned by the constitution.
mafketis 23 | 8,415
8 Jun 2018 #51
the constitution state that there is a right to live abroad

Applies to citizens which you're not. I understand that you enjoy complaining about how your rights are being violated more than you would enjoy actually moving to Poland in order to get citizenship but.... boy, is it tiresome.

You're not a citizen and have no way to bully the authorities into making you one. If you can prove some connection you could move to Poland and obtain citizenship if you really wanted it. If you're not doing that it's because you don't want to be a Polish citizen.
Pan T. K.
8 Jun 2018 #52
Just a gentle reminder that the topic of this thread is citizenship by descent. According to the constitution the child of a citizen is a citizen. So, citizenship by descent is acquired at birth, not by moving to the Motherland and naturalising. Even if it takes the bureaucrats years to decide a claim, it doesn't change the fact that citizenship was acquired at birth. If it does take years, or if the government has denied a claim due to documents unavailable in the archives and they are later discovered, this is a violation of human rights. Other nations in Europe don't follow the model of Tusk's law.

It's very straightforward.

Hardly, and if there was any suspicion that he had had Polish ancestry, he would know this. The process is anything but straightforward and fast.

When I submitted my application for confirmation of my Polish citizenship it took over 6 months and they had all the documents at the start.i

Only six months to get a passport, voting rights, etc., that one was born with is a good result. For others, the process drags on for years, frequently due to issues related to getting documents from the archives, as well as bureaucratic hostility or incompetence. The "military paradox" in the 1920 citizenship law will be ignored by the bureaucrats without a competent lawyer to shepherd the claim to finality. This is the reality. Readers can believe those who have suffered through the process, or believe the disinformation from those who have not and don't want them to succeed in gaining citizenship.
caitlinmurphy24 - | 1
12 Nov 2019 #53
Merged:

Would we qualify for Polish citizenship?



My great grandfather Carl Kozlowski was born October 4, 1895 in Michalowka, Poland.
My grandmother Dorothy Kozlowski was born on June 20, 1930 in Pennsylvania, USA.
My father Edward Murphy was born on June 23, 1956 in Connecticut, USA.
I, Caitlin Murphy, was born on December 24, 1989 in Connecticut, USA.
I have found a petition for naturalization form for Carl dated October 2, 1924.

Thanks for any and all help.
PTK
12 Nov 2019 #54
If Carl Kozlowski actually naturalized as a U.S. citizen before your grandmother was born in 1930, the case is much more difficult. Theororitcally if Carl never completed military service in Polska, due at age 21 or so, he could not lose Plish citizenship, unless he was excused for something like a physical disability. This is called the "millitary paradox". The problem is that the present government is hostile to such claims, and has not indexed certain old military files relevant to make a determination. You would need to start a search for his records in his homeland, i.e., birth records, possibly including his parents marriage record, military service records, or the lack of them, etc. You will need to learn which Michalowka village he was from, as there are at least 11 in the modern Republic, and may have been more in the lost lands to the East:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micha%C5%82%C3%B3wka

You will also need to learn when Carl left for America, and possibly what the law was that applied to him if he left before 1918 or so.

I would suggest that you first find a good geneaologist if you want to pursue your claim, then find a good lawyer dealing with old citizenship claims and the laws of Second Republic. Don't try to do this yourself. The process will not be easy, nor cheap. Don't expect the government to make the process easy for you.
bhk
17 Feb 2020 #55
Merged:

Polish Citizenship by descent question - Grandfather



Hi,

I'm a bit confused about the Polish citizenship by descent law and want to clarify on my specifics:

1) Grandfather born in 1902 in Poland
2) Left for the US in 1914, arriving through Ellis Island
3) No military service in the US
4) Father born in the US in 1954

I've seen conflicting information as to whether this might still allow for eligibility
PTK
20 Feb 2020 #56
It is complicated because there was no independent state in 1914 when the grandfather left. The issues are regarding the grandfather are,
1) Did the man somehow acquire another citizenship and the age of his son at the time if he did?
2) In which part of the nation did he have residency before WWI and what was his birth citizenship?
3) Were his parents habitually resident in any of the lands which became part of the Second Republic?
Claiming citizenship from the Second Republic is difficult. It is advisable to consult with an attorney who specializes in such claims.
Eric Says - | 2
25 Apr 2020 #57
My great grandfather was born in Wilkow, Poland in 1887 and my great grandmother was born in Lipno, Poland in 1888. He came to the US in 1905 and she came to the US in 1906 and they married in 1908. My grandfather was born in 1908. My father was born in 1935. I was born in 1962.

My great grandfather was gone by 1910 and my great grandmother remarried in 1911. She lived the rest of her life in the US. In 1940 she registered with the US as an alien, as a citizen/subject of Poland and maintained that status until her death in 1981. I have a copy of her US alien registration form but no birth certificate or documents from Poland. Her second husband was naturalized as a US citizen in 1945, however, he never adopted my grandfather and my grandfather never served in temilitary.

I have been reading the Polish citizenship laws and think that because my great grandmother never naturalized in the US and never renounced her Polish citizenship and my father and grandfather did not renounce their Polish citizenship that I would have an unbroken line of citizenship. My grandfather, who was born in 1908, was 10 years old in 1918, so he was a minor and significantly younger than the age of 21 when Poland became independent. Thanks to anyone who can give me some advice on whether I may qualify as a Polish citizen.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,267
25 Apr 2020 #58
My great grandfather was born in Wilkow, Polandin 1887 and my great grandmother was born in Lipno, Polandin 1888

No, they weren't.

as a citizen/subject of Poland

She never had Polish citizenship.
Miloslaw 7 | 3,264
25 Apr 2020 #59
@Eric Says

Sadly, Poland did not exist in their time so although they may have been ethnically Polish, they had no Polish citizenship.
PTK
26 Apr 2020 #60
they may have been ethnically Polish, they had no Polish citizenship.

That's very wrong. You should read the Versailles treaties before posting such nonsense. The Second Republic had to promise the Allies that in return for its rebirth as a nation, that it would not discriminate against people for arbitrary reasons, especially minorities. By default, they became citizens, not stateless people, even if living abroad.

My grandfather was born in 1908.

Your claim depends on the old Hapsburg laws in conjunction with the Versailles treaties. The present government is quite hostile to claims like this, regardless of the old treaty obligations. Other than possibly ethnic Germans living outside the borders of the Third Republic at its creation, those obligations haven't changed over time. A similar case is making its way up the courts. You may want to wait and see how it is decided before filing your claim. To file, you need to find your grandfather's birth records, his parents' marriage record, and either your great-grandfather's birth record or his military service records, (which are very hard to find). The complicating factor is that your grandfather was born a dual citizen of the U.S. and, what is usually simply called Galicia. Normally, countries ignore competing claims on its citizens from other states, and recognize them only as their own. The present government has a policy of recognizing competing claims over its own. They have lost this argument years ago in an international court, but continue do it defying international law. For any claim like this, a good lawyer is required. Do not file this claim without a lawyer. Again, I suggest that you wait.

There is another blog about this, but I won't post the link.

Ignore the trolls who haven't been through this process themselves.


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