Polonia / Is Holland antipolish? [29]


Positive. As I said, if the admiration the Dutch show towards the Poles who fought for their liberation is anything to go by, he'll be ok, provided as well that the OP makes sure he fits in etc. I'm sure your dad, like mine, did all these things and blended in perfectly in Australia. Perhaps some of the Poles of today who emigrate would do well to learn from what the post-WW2 émigré Poles did and didn't do in their host nations when they first arrived.

Polonia / Is Holland antipolish? [29]


Hardly any, if the Dutch admiration and respect of Poles who fought there in WW2 is anything to go by. In 2006 the Dutch Queen herself bestowed Honours and Awards upon General Sosabowski and the Polish Para. Brigade. As with all immigrants, if you fit in, learn the language quickly, make friends with the locals, don't criticise your hosts, and try to be more Dutch than the Dutch themselves, you should be ok. Good luck mate!

History / How different would WW2 turned out if Poland accepted Hitler's offer [215]


Wasn't it the case mate that towards the end of the war he or Himmler tried to set up a Polish unit to fight the Soviets under Nazi auspices that went nowhere because only a few dozen Poles volunteered?

History / Massacre of Polish Soldiers at Winniza in WW2? [5]


Thanks Chris.

The document reported on the Soviets taking Polish Priests to a mass grave, and showing purportedly Russian soldiers who had been murdered by the Germans. Polish Officers reported that the dead were actually their colleagues, dressed up in someone else's uniform.

I'll try and dig up the document. It was on the net.

History / Moniuszko Street, Warsaw, during the Rising [5]

Thanks a lot for your help Grzegorz and Warszawski. Much appreciated.

History / How different would WW2 turned out if Poland accepted Hitler's offer [215]


Indeed it was, and there are some suggestions that the Czechs pantomined in foreign uniforms to give a subterfuge. If one delves into the issue further, one can't help but notice the antics of Benes, with his double-speak and Ketmanesque dealings during the Spa negotiations and prior, faking a position of desiring a plebiscite to buy time. The Poles executed the agreement on the assumption of a decision being made on an objective basis, but were humbugged as Benes had already known of the decision beforehand, and indeed negotiated it direct with the decision makers!

As you would know, an agreement can be overturned in the event that a party has committed a fraud in obtaining the other party's consent, or has not disclosed to the other party matters that are material for the other party's consideration when deciding whether or not to enter into the agreement. Estoppel springs to mind too.

In any event, fast forward 20 odd years - inter alia, the Poles now long having realised they'd been duped by the Czechs (or I should say the Czech representative, because the Czech people shouldn't be held to account for the folly of their representatives) make an ultimatum in a different climate, which is accepted by the Czechs, and the Poles roll in - rough justice, I'd say. That the Poles didn't do anything sooner, and indeed seem to have exercised a fair amount of forebearance when action was taken, can only be attributed to the fact that Poland really is the Christ of Nations.

Curious, isn't it, how none of the Czech apologists (who I would warrant have probably never been to Czechoslovakia (as it was then know)) make any mention of Chamberlain's involvement in the Nazi carve up, nor in respect of the context to the matter as it played out in the late teens and early 20's - but, then again, we can't have facts getting in the way of an opportunity to jump on Polish shadows - indoctrination by Western propaganda, no doubt. Next we'll be hearing from them that Sikorski (from the grave) created the altered Curzon Line, that the Soviet takeover in 1944/45 was lawful under the Polish Constitution and that the Polish navy made full steam for Britain before the first shot was fired in WW2!

History / How different would WW2 turned out if Poland accepted Hitler's offer [215]


How very unlike you...

Shirking from a discussion, and moreso a discussion to which which the subject matter is near and dear to you, and whenever it pops up otherwise you home in on it. You've never let someone else's 'lying' hold you back - indeed, it seems to drive you in correcting the lie - but here, nothing.

Well, you've called me out, and I'm your huckleberry...

History / How different would WW2 turned out if Poland accepted Hitler's offer [215]


Truth hurts, doesn't it. The fact that it was only one squadron makes the fact that same saved Britain all the more remarkable.


High horse, actually. The only one pretending to ride hobby horses here is you, with your claimed Polish Army dress ups and pantomines. Just go back to rummaging through the costume box whilst the adults discuss matters of history. Pip pip ;-).


Whilst I'm wholly unfamiliar with the term "invicable", yours is a question, no doubt, best put to HMG in respect of their outright refusal to allow Anders' request in early 1945 to gather the remnants of his army fighting for HMG and return to Poland and reclaim their own country - yet another tick against the list of perfidy against the Poles. You wouldn't be aware of that however, being inculcated with Western propaganda.

And please note Issy, no response from you is desired or required. I've ended the discussion. Thank you.


Well put Ironside. As usual, you are at the vanguard of dismissing fantasy with fact. In similar vein, one should also recall the immortal words of the Honourable Sir Winston Churchill in praise of the Polish pilots when saying:

"Never in the field of conflict was so much owed by so many to so few"

Were you aware that HMG had the audacity to invoice against the Polish gold reserves held on trust for payment of the use of British planes, inter alia. It's a bit like me getting you over to my place to help put out a fire that's burning my home, then charging you for the use of the water and the singed hose.


An interesting claim, and I thank you for revealing it.

No doubt you've garnered some tangible information from relevant archives which, no doubt, set out, in particular, details regarding precisely what was or wasn't within the power of HMG to do viz their obligations under the Agreement. Please share that with us, bearing in mind your often repeated claims on this forum that you never claim anything without having the sources to back it up. I look forward to reading what you provide by way of source material...


For a start, the leaflets dropped could have been replaced with bombs...

You'll no doubt however be aware of why the order was given to drop leaflets instead.


You're falling for the ol' Western propaganda here too Harry. The BEF commenced deployment to France from 3 September, so your above quoted is pure dissimulation. Would you please explain the delay as to why it took til the 26th for them to start moving, and why in any event they were to wait til not earlier than 5 October in taking up places in Northern France? Mind you, I'm not after your opinion, but facts and matters gleaned from your knowledge of HMG's state of mind at the time. Please also refrain from any cheeky comments when responding - thanks in advance.

In any event, there is no text within the Agreement which says that in the event of invasion succeeding, obligations were to be suspended, but do feel free to point it out if you say there is...

History / How different would WW2 turned out if Poland accepted Hitler's offer [215]


Yes, it was the only right and just decision. As flawed and deceitful as the Poms and French were, Nazi Germany was one of the greatest evils of all time. I understand you're putting a hypothetical forward, but do you really think any true Pole would sign on with the Nazis? I would be absolutely disgusted to think that my ancestors were sided with the Nazis, whatever the gain may have been, and I'm sure that all of our Polish members would feel the same.


And, as is usual, I will ask you to detail whether or not what HMG actually did do was sufficient in discharge of its obligations under the Agreement and, as usual, you will have no genuine response.


Hardly. Without the Poles saving England during the BoB, there would be no RAF to bomb anything. You would do well to remember that.

Australia / Poles in Australia - money for start, chances for a job, costs of living (Brisbane, Bunbury) [50]


Mate, what about Alice, Darwin and Hobart or Launceston?

Waiting for excitement in those towns is like leaving the porch light on for Harold Holt!

Classifieds / D&D Group for Expats in Warsaw needs one more player... [69]


We used to do the same thing. If you rolled a 20 for the attack, that was a critical hit. You then rolled a 20 again, and we had a table from 1 to 20 with corresponding multipliers or benefits depending on the further number rolled and the enemy struck. For example, the higher you roled on the second roll, the better the damage or result, such as from double damage, triple and so on, up to an instant kill/severing of limb etc.

If you rolled a 1, that was what we called a fumble, and had a similar table but with bad things happening ranging from dropping or breaking the weapon to seriously hurting yourself. This became interesting when I DM'd and introduced black powder weapons, where a fumble was from between 1-5.

We also used to allow players to get to -10 HP. If a player was down to between 0 to -10, they were unconscious. If it was zero or below, every round you would drop one more HP. If you went below -10, you were dead. You had the chance to be revived by potion or spell whilst unconscious, so if you were on -9 HP, you had 2 rounds to be revived back to positive HP and so on. This created another level in that if the party was close and of good alignment, a lot of effort was placed during an encounter to 'rescue' a downed PC or NPC, often with interesting results and infighting sometimes.

We had one very interesting scenario where one of the players supposedly died right at the end of a gaming session and whose body was taken by the enemy. It turned out this player had a private briefing with the DM after the game and his character was resurrected by the enemy and tasked with a mission. Next session, out pops the 'dead' character whilst we're travelling with a fantastic tale of survival and tracking us down to rejoin. Turns out he (the character) was given the choice of dying or assassinating me and taking a magic item I had that was wanted or that I had peeved of some higher power that wanted me killed. He bungled the assassination attempt, but killed me anyway and took all my stuff, never to be seen again.

Sometimes, I'd just make the players roll a dice when they were doing something or waiting somewhere, for no good reason other than to keep them on their toes, and make them think something was happening, about to happen, or was not to happen, based on their rolls. The looks you get when a PC rolls, tells you the number, and you just smile evilly and nod then do your own rolls behind your own screen are priceless.

With character generation and stats, we found the 4d6 discard the lowest option the best, because if you stuck to the rules, you got crappy stats, and who wants a hopeless character. The characters are meant to be out of the ordinary, and feeble characters have no hope of advancing against high level enemies unless they're significantly bolstered by magic items. Is that how you deal with low stats (giving them magic items)?

Cheers mate.

Classifieds / D&D Group for Expats in Warsaw needs one more player... [69]


Des, your ability to turn mundane matters into Shakespearean prose, whilst at the same time artfully taking the **** without anyone realising it, almost always gives me a good chuckle mate! Did you mean "Owlbear"? - nasty creatures those.


For generation of attributes like strength, dex etc?

We used to roll 4d6 for each attribute and discard the lowest, which usually gave some pretty good stats. Let's face it, who wants to play a character with crap stats?

We did use 1st edition, but mainly for the classes like assassin, monk, cavalier (or was that Unearthed Arcana?) and so on, plus the extra spells offered in the 1st ed. Player's Handbook.

Something that was fun that we used to do was allow each PC one chance during their "life" to pray to their deity and ask for whatever they wanted on a roll of 2 20's on 2 d20's. It happened once!

Do you use miniatures? We used to use them for battle scenarios as it was a lot easier to visualise what everyone was doing, and made it a lot more fun.

Cheers.

Classifieds / D&D Group for Expats in Warsaw needs one more player... [69]


Man, wish I could join you guys. Haven't played AD&D in years. I used to play as a teen in the 90's (we played 2nd ed), every Saturday and twice on Sundays. I made some great friends during those good times but sadly the core crew of 8 drifted apart geographically and we stopped. I agree that D&D really fosters long lasting friendships, fertile imaginations and quick thinking. What edition do you play mate?

UK, Ireland / London is Poland's 24th largest city [78]


Hi Adam,

I enjoyed reading that anecdote, if it was one? Sounds like something from the diary of a 17th Century Polish nobleman who visited London. Could you let us know where it came from please and who the author was? Cheers

History / RAAF aircrew who died during the Warsaw Rising [8]


A variety of sources by googling terms like RAAF, pilots, killed, warsaw, 1944 and so on. There wasn't much that popped up. I think Fl/Lt Hammett's mention was from an aviation forum I looked at, though I see he is not mentioned either in the Australian War Memorial website "Roll of Honour", so it could be a mistake that he was KIA - nevertheless, he was in Sqd Ldr Liversidge's crew, so you can follow the bouncing ball from there if you wish to delve further.

There is an excellent and extensive list of pilots KIA and so on during WW2 sorties (mainly covert operations/drops etc) on the Harrington Museum website. I would recommend this as it is in chronological fashion and sets out in great detail dates, circumstances, crew and so on. It is several hundred pages long (PDF).

History / Poland's Roads in the 17th Century [19]


No I can't but a google reveals: Guillame Le Vassuer De Beauplan.

If you use google image, I see there are several maps of his showing.

I would try to source the book on him I read, as I recall his observations were quite detailed, but I can't recall if he specifically mentioned roads - defo worth a shot though. Let me know how you go.

Another primary source may be the reports of English Ambassadors to Poland, and similar plenipotentaries. There could even be sources from Scottish people of that time, bearing in mind the large influx of Scots to the Commonwealth at that time.

Although later, my readings on the Napoleonic Wars viz campaigns in Poland all point towards a shocking road system. Perhaps memoirs of Napoleonic veterans, then reverse engineer from there? How about similar but for the Great Northern War?

Cheers.

History / How I blew a 6 figure grant for my charity because of my appreciation of Polish history... [77]


Thanks mate. I had no idea of its genesis.

History / Query regarding AK casualty list for the Warsaw Rising [3]

Thanks again for all your help Iron!

History / Poland's Roads in the 17th Century [19]


Hi Anders,

I think perhaps your best source of information (potentially) would be the memoirs and diaries of military persons such as Hetman Zolkiweski, JC Pasek and so on, with Pasek probably the most relevant. There may be some snippets of road conditions/construction in such journals. Both were alive during the C17.

The Frenchman Beauplan too may be even more relevant. He was an Engineer who served in the Crown Army in the mid C17. I read many years ago (in English) his notes on various Polish towns and fortifications in the C17 and he drew quite a few maps. There may be legends on such maps detailing roads, but I can't recall.

All the best!

History / How I blew a 6 figure grant for my charity because of my appreciation of Polish history... [77]


Thanks Yerrick - that's fine if you disagree mate.

I think I may need to explain myself more carefully however. When I refer to the Holocaust in the modern context being 'generally' associated with the attempted extermination of the Jewish people, what I mean is that if you were to put this term 'Holocaust' to the average person and ask for their understanding of it, 'generally' the answer would be that it was to do with the deaths of millions of Jewish people in WW2. Does that make sense?


I think it's time for everyone to speak plainly, honestly and respectfully about history. To take somehting back means you owned it. No one owns history, but all people who make up history own the specific parts that they played in it. The problem arises when people like us (who were not contemporaneously part of that history) try to claim ownership of genuinelycontentious historical matters. We must do what we can to avoid that, because my claim to ownership may not be better than yours, and there is no impartial arbiter who can decide priority of claim.

History / How I blew a 6 figure grant for my charity because of my appreciation of Polish history... [77]


Respectfully, I disagree. The noun Holocaust has been used throughout the centuries to name such similar acts perpetrated against other peoples, be it on racial or religious grounds. It was not coined specifically as a consequence of the attempted extermination of Jewish people or people of Jewish faith, though I of course appreciate that in the modern context it is in general associated with same, and, undoubtedly, the Jewish people were unparalleled in terms of the savagery and methodical nature in which the Nazis sought to exterminate them and in terms of how many actually perished relative to other groups of people.

It ought be borne in mind that, as one example (other than his plans for Jewish people per se), every Pole (regardless of faith) was, in Hitler's own words, to be killed without mercy or pity. This was attempted, though he was stopped, which meant that people such as you and I are now alive.

In my view, there should be no commodification or naming rights to the term Holocaust, notwithstanding the fact that the Nazis were variable in their zealousness with the speed and manner in which they killed those different people that were subject to it. To do otherwise would arguably be a denial of a remembrance of all those millions of others of different race, nationality and religion who perished under the Holocaust - they should not be marginalised because of a perceived naming right. All the murdered during the Holocaust shared a common killer - they should have at least the dignity of sharing a common remembrance of their passing and a common condemnation of those who sought to liquidate them.


Again, I disagree if you are suggesting that it was just the Jewish people who were murdered in occupied areas after the front moved on. If so, this is clearly untrue. I'd warrant that nearly every member of this forum whose lineage lies in Central/Eastern Europe (for example) had a family member/descendant or knew of someone close to their family who was murdered by the Nazis in some form of operation nowhere near the front lines, and not in the course of what we loosely refer to as 'dying in battle'.


Would you please explain what you mean here, particularly in respect of the insult you refer to?

History / How I blew a 6 figure grant for my charity because of my appreciation of Polish history... [77]


Gday Masks98,

You did the right thing mate, and good on you for educating the ignorant. How were you to know this character was a 'philanthropist', or that even if he was, if he would give you any money?

Poland has been subject to dissimulation and Communist propaganda for a long time. I sort of understand why the ignorant say these things in those circumstances, but it's people like you at the grass-roots who do so much to change that.

Cheers, Dan.

Genealogy / Does anyone have any relatives who served with 1st Polish Armoured Division (Gen. Maczek) [310]


Mate, what a heart wrenching story - thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, I can't help as I had no ancestors who served under General Maczek, but if you read up about the exploits of his Armored Brigade, you'll see that your dad served amongst heroes and was undoubtedly one himself.


If you didn't 'sign up', it was usually a bullet or being sent to the camp. This has been a constant source of anxiety for Poles since the Partition era - being forced to serve in the armies of their occupier.

Good luck in your quest for knowledge on your father, and trust me, your dad did you a service in not telling you what happened to him during the war, or what he saw.

History / THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF POLAND [12]

Selamat pagi Bu, dan Selamat datang di forum ini. Apa kabar? Saya belajar bahasa Indonesia di Universitas di Australia, tetapi saya bukan(?) untuk(?) berbicara bahasa Indonesia selama kira kira 16 tahun!

Saya rekomend(?) wordlii, lexisnexis, legislationonline untuk anda belajar dari pada Polish legislation di bahasa Ingris.

In English to comply with PF rules:

Said hi, welcomed her to the forum, told her that I studied the Indonesian language but haven't communicated in 16 years and suggested some English language websites for Polish legislation.

History / A Polish Town in Turkey. Who Knew? [9]

Quite a few Poles sought refuge in Turkey after the failed Polish insurrections of the C19, with probably the most notable example being General Bem, who converted to Islam and then served under the Sultan.

History / A question regarding government positions in the C19 [5]


Yes, the term was 'judge'. It could be a mistake though.

Thanks for all your help. It's certainly given me an understanding.

One last thing, would this role of Marszalek have had any connotations of collaboration with the Russians, or would the Marszalek have been seen as the szlachta's intermediary with the Russians? Cheers.


Cheers.