News / An EU army. Impact on Poland [155]

Well, you can't really expect the Americans do that either, since they can't prevent their children to be gunned down in schools and churches.

News / An EU army. Impact on Poland [155]

Lovely Dirk is back, and guess which topic he brings up again... .

Language / Will Germans be able to understand Polish enough? [77]

Well, if you speak Korean you will also be able speak to people in Korean restaurants which habe become quite popular.

But aside from those very specific situations, it is very unlikely. The plan should not be to rely Polish languagr skills for vital information.

Language / Will Germans be able to understand Polish enough? [77]

The German school system simply favours other languages. English is nowadays a pretty safe bet if you are in cities. French is a possibility if youbare in Western/South Western Germany. There are some who still learn Russian in school (even in West Germany), but you would be hard-pressed to find any. Meeting people who speak Polish highly unlikely.

News / An EU army. Impact on Poland [155]


Indeed. Until Brexit, the UK was always expected to veto such a proposition, that is no longer the case. Furthermore the presidency of Trump has proven to be a gamechanger. Many countries that previously wanted to rely on the USA (most notably the Eastern Europeans) are no longer willing to do so. It is no coincidence that they e.g. joined PESCO.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


When Germans could learn to overcome their antisemitism, anybody can.

Somethink seems to be wrong with your head though, because why refugees should have anything to do with reparations makes probably only sense to you.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

Some people seem to think so.

alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2017/1/19/iraq-demands-america-britain-pay-reparations-for-2003-invasion

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

Greece has no claim for reparations either. However they might be able to claim compensation for the forcible bank loan.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


Delphie can not change the historical facts. The four (though only really 3, but 4 France was also admitted) Great Powers who won WWII shaped the post-war order and laid the legal framework for the aftermath. They were the ones who were responsible for the aftermath in Germany, because the Third Reich had unconditionally surrendered to them. They also controlled Poland, so obviously any agreement would involve them.


You are right. All the previous agreements were only concerning the FRG and GDR, but not a reunited Germany. However Polish zeal was not really needed, since it was always clear that a reunited Germany would sign a permanent agreement. However Poland wanted that Kohl signed an agreement before reunification took place, which Kohl wisely declined (because he knew that such an agreement could be legally questionable).

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

@Ironside


Again, you lack the historical knowledge on the matter. Back then basically all the Polish newspapers were demanding that a final agreement on the border was needed. If I remember it correctly, there were even polls which supported it. The Polsih did what they did in accordance of the wishes of the Polish people.

@delphiandomine


As you said, the Versailles experience was still present. Germany's Western neighbours also received various financial accomodations during the inception of the EEG.

Reparations to Poland were because of several reasons unthinkeable. Back then there was a wide consensus among Germans that the Eastern border was far from final. Some suggested that Poland should keep the area, but pay compensation to Germany for the lost property. Others demanded a revision of the border. Any settlement with Poland should change the status quo in some way towards Germany, not Poland. Nobody believed that Poland should get any reparations.

The reality of the Cold War was probably the biggest factor. Poland was a potential enemy, the SU was deemed as the biggest threat to the Western World. On that even the Wedtern Allies agreed. You are not paying bns to your biggest enemy so that he can build more tanks which he can use to conquer you.

Israel was a special case for several reasons, some of which you already mentioned. It was also because of the personal conviction of Adenauer, that the payments were so generous. He fought hard against his own party to succeed here.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


They did this with the full public support of the Polish people. Personally I do not believe that it was a crappy bargain, though Poland should have done it without provocing so much internationsl irritation. War reparations were never a realistic possibility. Keep in mind that Germams expelled in the East were still s relatively large part of the voters back then. Agreeing to the border was still somewhat risky for Kohl. No chancellor could have agreed to paying reparations and the Polish government knew this. Which is why they did not defend it.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


Because it waved those claims in treaties that solved the reparation issue, yes. Just like Germany has no legal claim to its' former territories, so does Poland not have any claims to reparations.

We had this discussion before and it is not really fruitful if I have to explain all the basics to you over and over again. You clearly seem interested in this issue, so I would recommend reading some literature about it. Numerous books have been published about the Oder-Neisse-Line and how the German and Polish government negotiated about it. A book that explains it quite well is this:

Allen, Debra J. (2003). The Oder-Neisse line: the United States, Poland, and Germany in the Cold War.


This is wrong. The former Eastern Territories belonged legally to Germany until it accepted the loss of it in those treaties. That is basic international law. The Potsdam Agreement was not a permanent border settlement (which is stated in the text itself) so for a permanent solution, Germany would have to agree to the border.

Something the Polish people were very nervous about until 1990/91. That nervosity was unfounded of course, something everybody pointed out to them. But they still insisted on it. Their chose, and Poland has to live with it.


Nothing perhaps to you. But not to the Polish people and politicians in 1989/90 who pestered the 4 occupational powers and Germany to finalize the border before reunification took place. They were willing to wave their reparation claims as a consequence, and this they did. No need to feel angry about it though. The reason why you do not consider the border in any way threatened is because of those agreements. So they worked as they should.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


Not for nothing. During the negotiations for German Reunification, the Polish government created a lot of smoke over the border issue. More specifically they wanted an assurance that a reunited Germany would forfeit its claims to former Germany territories. Previously only the FRG and GDR had done so 1953 and 1970 for their states. The Polish government was very insistent and almost derailed the entire negotiations, but in the end a solution was found. A reunited Germany confirmed the border and solved the reparation issue permanently.

Again, all the Polish government wanted was the border confirmed and accepted that the reparations would be ruled out. The PM of Poland told that Kohl in one of his phone calls. There are good books written about the entire negotiations that explain this in a lot of detail. And as side note, some of the historians I have read (quite a few British and French one) have noted that the Polish government has played their cards rather poorly in this one. There was never any chance for a border change back then, but their insistence (fuelled bythe Polish Domestic press) on it made them wave their last chance for reparations.


Those were linked from the very beginning. Poland always wanted the existing borders confirmed (because the Potsdam Protocol was not a permanent settlement) and they always treated the reparation issue as bargaining chip. Which was fine, because Germany did the same with the border question.

They are also linked today. Because when the Polish government claims that those treaties over the border and reparation were not final, they also obviously put the legal status of Western Poland in doubt.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


The impression is that the grand-children of the culprits are not going to pay a tn€ to the grand-children of the victims who already received compensation.


A moral argument can be decisive if it can be supported by a legal argument. The legal argument is already completely on Germany's side, and the moral one is very questionable, and getting weaker with time.


Yes, we might end up paying to Namibia and Greece. But thankfully, that is not the case with Poland ;)

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


This is where you are wrong. The facts regarding war reparations are all on Germany's side. The question regarding war reparations has been settled in several binding treaties. And PiS knows this which is why they are forced to get creative in their arguments.

You are also mistaking with your argument about the passage of time. Time is on Germany's side in this argument. With every year that passes, Poland loses the moral argument and it becomes more and more ridiculous to claim 1tn reparations from the great-grandparents of the culprits. Once the last WWII surivor dies, it will become as ridiculous as e.g. demanding reparations for the Napoleonic Wars.


It would pressure on the opponent if that would deemed as a valid argument. The German government knows that those claims are invalid and thus simply ignore them. The irony is that among all of Germany's victims during the war, Poland -despite suffering the most - has the weakest claim for reparations because several Polish governments - including the democratic elected ones - have waved Poland's right to reparations several times over.


That is true. Germany waved the claim to its' former territories in the same treaties that included Polish demands for reparations. If you deem those treaties as invalid to justify war reparations, you would also invalid the German agreement to forgo claims to former territories. Then again, Poland can not unilaterally refute those treaties within international law, so this is all purely academical.

It is also true that sometimes moral pressure can be used against some countries as a tool, but without any legal foundation, they have little influence.

For example both Greece and Namibia have received some support even by German politicians, because they can rightfully point out that not all matters of reparations have been permanently settled. Germany never paid reparations to Namibia, and never made any agreement regarding the loan it forcibly took from Greece during WWII. However Polish claims have not received any support, precisely because they have no legal foundation.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

This is a very complicated legal matter and I do not see any merit in explaining it to some people who do not care about facts anyway.

WWII is long over, and all matters regarding the war between Germany and Poland have been definitely dealt with anyway.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


Ok Basil, whatever you say ;)


You want to give Pommerania and Silesia back to Germany?

News / 'Fort Trump' Military Base in Poland [537]

@undercover


Are you talking about yourself right now?

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

You know, the sketch was making more fun about the Brits than the Germans. Or more specifically, about those who were still fighting the war 30 years after its' end. In a way it gets more relevant with every day. Because those who still bring it up as a way to judge modern Germans are just exposing their own stupidity, like Basil did.

News / 'Fort Trump' Military Base in Poland [537]

And it doesn't stop the economically more powerful country to demand renegotiations whenever it wants.

Life / Political correctness in Poland [210]


Yes, so far. But they have almost caught up to us. They now have modern education system, a large population to produce scientists and a government that is willing to spend the necessary ressources to see it done. It might still take a while, but those factors will eventually have an impact.


You are right. That is the one advantage which I hope will grant Western societies an edge over China, that being said, how much it will matter is not really predictable. Japan also places a lot of value on collectivism, and they have become a very innovative society. In any case, the days when the West (and Japan) dominated the scientific world are numbered.

Life / Political correctness in Poland [210]

I was referring to the view that White People were the driving force behind most innovation. That has beeb true for some time, but is likely to change within the next decades. Especially China does everything to become a scientific powerhouse and leader in key technologies like artificial intelligence.

Life / Political correctness in Poland [210]


I am sure the native Americans are particulary greatful to Europeans who exposed them to so many diseases that killed up to 90% of them.

You are in a way fortunate Rich. If I remember correctly, you claimed to be a grandfather, so you likely won't live long enough to see the world change against your viewpoint.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]


It must be convenient to live in a world in which you can stereotype people so easily.


Like judging them fairly, and not based on the actiond of a few individuals?

News / 'Fort Trump' Military Base in Poland [537]


Yes really. It has the same rights and access to the Single market without preconditions.


Because there is no economic integration without a political one. No single market of this size with so many countries could exist without it. Look what toothless tiger the WTO.


The EU is not about control, but it seems futile to argue with someone who wants to see the EU as a tool of German domination. It would be so much easier if Germany had even half as much influence as you and others seem to think.

News / 'Fort Trump' Military Base in Poland [537]


It is you who has seemingly no clue about the EEC. The EEC was never simply a smaller WTO because it would not have worked that way without a political element.


Also not a realistic scenario. Poland is currently treated as an equal by its' richer western colleagues thanks to the EU. Without the EU it would lose this status, and in trade negotiations with Germany, it would be in a far weaker position.

News / "It's too late for Germany" (but not for Poland) [1798]

Interesting how similar old antisemtic cartoons from the Nazi era and modern antimuslim cartoons are. Then again, the people who draw them arr also very much alike in their mindsetting and tactics.

News / 'Fort Trump' Military Base in Poland [537]


That is indeed what many people who want to restart the EU in Germany propose. Especially AfD voters argue that a downsized new EU should only include Germany, France, the Benelux countries and Scandinavia. Poland (and Eastern Europe) is usually not included in their vision for the reason you cited and because it is an obstacle for their vision of a close partnership with Russia.

That aside, I find it astonishing that some people really believe that Poland would be admitted to such a club. Some selective reasoning I guess.

News / 'Fort Trump' Military Base in Poland [537]


That is a misconception at best. The UK has been quite influential within the EU over the years. However the fact that it opted out on many European integration projects naturally limited its' influence in some areas.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/07/09/british-influence-in-brussels-had-been-far-greater-than-recognised/

Off-Topic / Merkel's stepping down influence on Poland [82]

Not exactly her fault when most of her possible successors commit political suicide one way or another.

Frankly I'd be more concerned about Poland than Germany. The fact that the most powerful person holds no elected office and made the PM and President his puppets raise a lot of red flags.