Study / Which language to learn in my university course? Polish Or German? [35]

As a matter of fact, I lived for several years (spaced out, not all together) in Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Holland and for a little over a month and a half, in Spain. I didn't find it necessary to use English in any of these places since I knew it would be a disaster! DId my message before last leave no impression whatsoever as to what all too often occurs when foreigners translate from their mother tongue into English??? I'm certainly not stopping any of you from using English where and whenever you darn well please. Just be aware, you're actually practicing English, not just using it, so at least for heaven sake accept a bit of correction every now and then!

You also inadvertently hit the nail on the head (Du hast eben den Nagel auf den Kopf getroffen) regarding native vs. global English. The fact that a Turk for instance enjoys practicing his English with a Pole, a German, a Russian, a Chinaman or another Turk as opposed to a native English speaker, is the problem right there. It's those "less common words" you mention which make one's English sound literate rather than semi-literate and/or plain unintelligible!! If we lose our language, what then will make us in future any different from the four-legged variety of animal?

Need I further remind you concerning your post that had I not studied languages other than English, I'd scarcely understand some of your syntax, expressions, as well as vocabulary, e.g. "save" instead of "secure" etc...

Only by "translating BACK" into whichever language your interference was coming from was I able to make sense of the entire message, I hate to disappoint you:-)

Study / Which language to learn in my university course? Polish Or German? [35]

"Or languages are your profession."

D-U-H-H, monitor!! You FINALLY catch on, eh?! No, in fact I started out in life as a salesman, yet after encountering soooo many multilingual Europeans doing such humdrum jobs such accountant, grade school teacher etc.., I thought to myself long ago, when then should I have to be a foreign language major to speak German, Dutch, Swedish, Polish etc...?? If a Belgian plumber visiting the States claims to know more English than I Flemish or French, who is he?? He can butcher MY native English language, while I have to speak his with precision??!

I'm merely trying to even the playing field as much as I possibly can.

If the entire world in fact speaks broken English, then at least (I say for the umpteenth time) kindly admit that you're all PRACTICING, not speaking English the correct way it should be spoken. If you never learn, your English will never improve. If good English is not your goal, why bother speaking it?

What's more, if you honestly think you're communicating in English and you really can only be lulled into false security by ignorant, non-native English chat, you're really living in a fools' paradise.

Language / [ jak wiele razy / ile razy ] [12]

"Ile"/"Illu" is "How much/How many

Polish sometimes doesn't make the identical distinction as we do in English between singular vs. plural. Only the endings as well as the context will normally indicate such, e.g. "Ile to kosztuje? = How MUCH does it cost? vs. Ilu studentów jest w klasie? = How MANY students are there in [the] class? For the latter, Polish typically uses the singular form "jest" instead of "są", even though "studentS" is clearly a plural concept in English:-0

Language / [ jak wiele razy / ile razy ] [12]

Similar, but naturally not exactly parallel. Polish uses either "Ile" vs."Ilu" in order to distinguish between "much" and "many", whereas in French "Combien", Spanish "Quanto(s)" etc., the form of the construction never changes:-)

Quantities in Polish represent the infamous "counting quirks" of the language which are RARELY a straightforward affair! Often, their application can be hair-raisingly perplexing to the foreignerLOL

Language / [ jak wiele razy / ile razy ] [12]

Doubtless Michel Thomas is giving but the bare bone basics, much as Pimsleur, Berlitz or Rosetta Stone would.
Unlike Spanish, French or Italian, Polish is a language on which one really must keep one's mind in the beginning and well on up through intermediate as well:-) There are few shortcuts or mnemonics as there are for English, damned near zero clear-cut explanations as in German.

Polish, like Icelandic, must be learned one structure, indeed practically one word, at a time!

Study / Which language to learn in my university course? Polish Or German? [35]

By all means, researchers, learn German if it's practical for you to do so! Don't rely on their English. Frequently, it's NOT about communication if they're saying things you don't understand (or vice-versa):-)

My point earlier yesterday was simply that Germans, Norwegians and many other Europeans especially often OVERestimate their English skills so that it's almost laughable! To be sure, their frequent reticence in speaking English with educated native English speakers is that their poor English would be shown for what it is, rather than what they think it is or even should be!

Monitor, it's not a truism (Binsenwahrheit) to state that the more you practice a language, the better you'll get at it; it's the truth:-)

Try it some time, it'll work wondersLOL

Language / [ jak wiele razy / ile razy ] [12]

This is then the reason why Poles typically make the mistake in English of saying "There are too much (rather than "many") students." etc..

Your point is of course completely well taken, Ziemowit!

My point however was not that "Ile" vs. "Ilu" have nothing to do "mięsko -vs. mięskonieosobowy", but rather with the concept of singular vs. plural in itself which varies sufficiently between most Slavic and, say, Germanic as well as many Romance languages as well:-)

Study / Which language to learn in my university course? Polish Or German? [35]

Other, aside from myself, few Americans feel it necessary to learn another language. This is often a mistake. Half of the "translation" work I have to do here at my office is to translate foreign English into "ENGLISH" English, and usually with little success as the original message is in many instances so garbled, it sometimes has to be decoded before it can even be understood. Admittedly though, this doesn't happen too frequently.

Apropos "Binsenweisheit" vs. -"wahrheit", this is the same native German-speaker glitch as "ausverschaemt" instead of the DUDEN-correct "UNverschaemt".

I'm well aware of the distinction, but do appreciate your pointing it out for the sole benefit of those who don't know German:-)

A brief aside. While still a teenager, we all participated in a sort of international youth jamboree (Jugendtreffen) at our highschool. Youth from all over Europe especially came and took part in practically an entire week of sports, lectures and related activities. I noticed then (late '70's) as I notice today that my conversations in English with my Dutch, German, French, Danish peers was on the whole so limited, that most of the chat was four-letter words and punk-style vulgarity.

Sure, the "international" language of the jamboree was English! If that's communication,.... you can keep it. I kinda felt like Jacques Coursteau - in search of intelligent conversation. I'm still looking (... but haven't given up hope)LOL

Only the other day, a colleague of mine from Vienna was in our office, chattering away non-stop in rapid fire "Wi'aanerisch" with another colleague, when we ran into one another in the corridor. I greeted him jauntily in his dialect, to which he replied with annoyance, "What's that, Mark? You speak also English, I think!", in a sort of caricatured "American" accent it'd have made Duke Wayne proudLOL He clearly thought I was making fun of his accent, simultaneously with his mocking mine:-)

Now if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black

History / What does "the second Apocalypse" mean? WW2? [5]

Or, it might mean "Dzień Sądu" = Judgement Day, Day of Judgement

Study / Which language to learn in my university course? Polish Or German? [35]

I agree to a large extent, Foreigner4. I disagree slightly with the notion that specifically English speakers will find the study of the language "way" easier, since very often the cognate similarities with English can lull the learner into the mistaken belief that the languages are really alike. which they actually aren't, the deeper you go. While German has some semantic sameness with English, its syntax (hypotaxis and frequent inversion rules) and often sentence length can make the native English learner almost dizzy at times, particularly those extended adjective constructions, all too common in formal, written German. Case endings too, even when speaking, are necessary to sound at least half-way intelligible.

Therefore, it's a mixed bag, I'd say:-)

Study / Which language to learn in my university course? Polish Or German? [35]

Foreigner, German is once again a more lexically, not to mention semantically, related language to English than Polish! Having established that, for many of my students, wrapping their brain around German "logic", i.e. thought structuring, has been much like a Star Trek episode, taking a voyage into another universe.

With Polish, once the aspectual distinctions (related in an odd-sort of way with tense usage in various languages) have been mastered, the fact that even place names receive FULL declensional attention, is a bit more than many a faint-hearted first-time learner can deal with:-)

Other, you make errors in English too (thereby overestimating YOUR language skill, with which you unapologetically continue!). Allow me to point a few of them out to you some time. My German is essentially bilingual, and as I stated earlier, the errors I admittedly make in either English or German, are basically identical to the example I gave you previously ^^

As far as Dutch, Swiss etc.. having better English than many English native speakers, I'd think that as a non-native English speaker that would be somewhat difficult for one to judge, wouldn't it? Not everyone from that part of the world is a language genius any more than the average Polish university student is another Joseph Conrad.

LOL

Study / Which language to learn in my university course? Polish Or German? [35]

My point was simply that it only is the truly exceptional non-native English speaker who can judge the native-speaker quality of another's English, that's all. Often, non-natives (although educated, i.e. well schooled) are easily impressed with what SOUNDS as though it's good, even correct, English, but in fact would cause an English native speaker to either shake their head in bewilderment, or simply start to guffaw.

A Brazilian construction brochure, typically translated for international comprehensibility by a Brazilian rather than an English native speaking translator, stated the following:

"Our architects have often big erections all over the city which is why she impress everybody to touch peoples from all over the world..."

It gets even more embarrassing:-) Had a native English speaker translated same, you can be sure of quality control, not merely the usual cost-cutting measuresLOL

Study / Which language to learn in my university course? Polish Or German? [35]

I'm not familiar with that person's work. Examples, please?

History / If Poles were antisemitic, would they ...? [240]

Jewish culture is soooooooo old in Poland that trying to avoid it (even with the conspicuous absence of Jews throughout much of the country aside from the capital!) is next to impossible; it's everywhere. Chances are that certain components of Polish culture ranging from traditional dishes to klezmer-like folk music etc. have some element of Jewishness in them. Not all Poles are antisemitic either. Wotyła and Jan Karski were examples of that!

Study / Which language to learn in my university course? Polish Or German? [35]

Impressive, Other! You are then fluent in Strine (Auslish), English and German, right? How's your Polish incidentally?

Study / Homeschooling in Poland - possible to apply? [14]

I thought homeschooling was illegal in many places.

Language / [ jak wiele razy / ile razy ] [12]

An interesting riposte, Ziemowit!

Study / Which language to learn in my university course? Polish Or German? [35]

When last in Poland, a Russian once told me my Polish was so "good" that a German would think I were a Czech. When I said that I was American, the Russian fellow flat out refused to believe me:-)

History / If Poles were antisemitic, would they ...? [240]

In fact, the Finns sided with the Germans during WWII:-) Finnland likes to point out that their General Mannerheim was actually of Swedish decent....but we know betterLOL

:-)

History / If Poles were antisemitic, would they ...? [240]

Warszawski, you have a good point here, I must admit. Often times I've met gentile Europeans wearing stars of David as though it were any ol' necklace (easily subsituted by a conventional cross), without the slightest awareness, or even worse, interest, in the fact that it's a Jewish symbol. Wonder if conversely in one hundred years, young people will blithely wear swasticas round their necks, merely because it looks different, unaware of it's historical meaning other than as an ancient Iranian symbol!!

History / If Poles were antisemitic, would they ...? [240]

Fact of the matter is, that the Poles probably were the LEAST "anti-Jewish" out of the entire Eastern Block (except perhaps for Bulgaria), referring here exclusively during WWII! I say this because unspeakable excesses notwithstanding, there was a large and well-organized Nazi resistance movement within wartime Poland, not to the same degree in the Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia or even Russia itself. There were of course more than mere pockets of resistance in those countries, yet Poland had a majority of her citizens, ordinary Poles, who were members of the Ruch Opór, who sacrificed valiantly for Poland. Wajda's film on the subject is considered authoritative, I believe:-)

I also completely left out the Baltic states, among them Lithuania which untill this day is a virtual graveyard for Jews to an extent Poland clearly isn't, let's just be fair for the record.

Poland's larger urban areas, including Cracow, (not only the capital) have a vibrant, if burgeoning, Jewish presence. In LIthuania, Latvia and Estonia, it's one heartbreaking abandoned site after another. Wilniuś used to be as vibrant a Jewish center as Cracow once was. Today? Poland at least has Jewish life vs. Jewish death!!

Study / Which language to learn in my university course? Polish Or German? [35]

No prob, Foreigner! Happens to the best of us ^^

Germans often asked me when I was studying in a small city outside of Hanover, resp. Hannover, why I spoke German when they all (allegedly) spoke "better" English I ever possibly could in their language. My answer remained the same always. I'd calmly explain to them in their language that if every one of them knew half as much English/American literature and wordplay, punning etc. as I knew in German, well then, I'd have been tickled to speak to them in English:-)

Again, it's the sense of double standard; we outsiders are eternal students of the language,while Germans somehow miraculously don't need to practice their English, and deeply resent missives, however well meant, that they ought to. It's almost as though their pride in being perfect at all that they do has been wounded by meeting their match.

Curious. I never once encountered this attitude in Poland.

History / If Poles were antisemitic, would they ...? [240]

Present-day Poland may actually have more of an honest-to-goodness Jewish presence than many Western European countries! Italians whom I've met claim to have rarely if ever encountered a Jew, that is, a fellow native Italian "paisano" of Jewish background! Furthermore, the few Jews that there are remain so integrated into Italian culture and society, they're not thought of any longer as Jews:-) This is in stark contrast to Poland or Russia, for instance, where Jews are looked upon as a strangely separate entity from gentile Poles. In the former Soviet Union, Jews were a separate nation, practically, with 'Jew' stamped on their passports!

An intriguing dichotomy, Jews in Poland. They're "Jewish", yet "Polish", even though evidence of Jewish culture is rather like fireflies; they flash quickly, but aren't seen except traces of their light are observed only in passing.

History / If Poles were antisemitic, would they ...? [240]

Thing is though, Biegański, that Jews were scarcely Neanderthals, but significant contributors to that bygone era of which you and others have previously spoken! A far more precient analogy would have been with Native Americans here in the States and their all but vanished civilization. They too were hardly primitve cave dwellers, but highly advanced members of an ancient society. Albeit perhaps not a "civilization" in the Western sense of the word (after all they had not weaponry as did the white European conquerors), they had nonetheless attained a vaunted degree of accomplishment. The Central Americans too were far more advanced than the North Americans.

This though is going more than a bit off topic.

The point I was debating was the comparison between Poland's Jews and extinct Neanderthals, a parallel I frankly find ludicrous!!

History / If Poles were antisemitic, would they ...? [240]

Yet marginalizing a national group of such significance as the Jews in pre-War Poland is to do them a tremendous disservice, in my opinion. They were destroyed because of who they were, not what they did. Therefore, to merely take their achievements for one's personal or collective enrichment, without crediting them, that is, paying them the debt of gratitude which they are richly owed, is tantamount to being sort of prostitute who collects money, wealth from clients whom they may in fact despise, yet offers them little to any true thanks.

History / If Poles were antisemitic, would they ...? [240]

Biegański, czy masz wątpliwość że byli obozy koncentracyne dla żydów?! Żydi byli według Hitlera nieprzyjacielem światowym, słowiańskie narody nie.

You, like much Eastern European youth, maintain ingrained anti-semitic sentiments because you feel history has judged you guilty by association. While this too is obviously unfair, gentile treatment of Jews was even more unfair. You clearly have misread history and therefore I can no longer convince you of the truth. Perhaps also your English is not at the commensurate level to follow my points:-)

History / If Poles were antisemitic, would they ...? [240]

Ya coulda fooled me:-)

History / If Poles were antisemitic, would they ...? [240]

Well, I think gentiles get "too much" undeserved attention round about Christmas when I get my pockets picked by every Tom, Dick or Harry with a case of the holiday gimmies! Wouldn't you then logically turn right around and call me a Scrooge??

I think so:-)

History / If Poles were antisemitic, would they ...? [240]

Pawiańku,

niestety absolutnie NIE rozumiałes żart mojego zdania! US humor frequently makes clever use of deadly sarcasm aimed at foolish statements, notions or assertions by pretending to tacitly AGREE with them by seeming to take the other's viewpoint while actually being against their argument, as I was vis-a-vis the idea that Jews are somehow getting too much attention:-)

lol

At least you freely admit the fact that you're not an English native speaker and therefore that much of the gist of what I said was beyond you.

My respect for you has gone up a few notches ^^

Work / Working in Poland without speaking Polish [75]

As usual, I must qualify my feelings about this thread. If I were working for an international concern in Poland, for example IBM etc.. and I were hired as a software engineer using strictly ENGLISH with other American, British, native speaking colleagues, I'd have zero qualms about using English and probably not bother to learn all but bare minimum Polish to get by.

Other than that, if working with Poles, Germans, French, Italians, Russians etc.., I'd suppose I'd be forced by sheer necessity to use English, fully aware of the myriad pitfalls which would await me were I not careful to "inspect" all communiques, both spoken as well as written, for the perennial boobytraps:-)