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Posts by Derevon  

Joined: 11 Oct 2009 / Male ♂
Last Post: 23 Sep 2012
Threads: Total: 12 / Live: 6 / Archived: 6
Posts: Total: 172 / Live: 87 / Archived: 85
From: Wrocław, Poland (orig. Sweden)
Speaks Polish?: So-so
Interests: languages, computers

Displayed posts: 93 / page 2 of 4
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Derevon   
24 Jan 2010
Language / Usage: Freedom in Polish and in English [30]

I'm not sure I can give any concrete examples, but it's very common that I don't understand Polish sentences even when I know all the words in them. In part that's because Polish has different constructions that don't translate well for grammar reasons, but I also have a feeling that more things are omitted in Polish, and that you have to piece more things together from the context.

In proper writing there's usually no problem, but when talking, people use more cryptic (in my opinion) expressions. For example, my Polish girlfriend's mother once gave me a pair of gloves, and she asked, "trafny?", and even though I know what this word means I really had no idea what she meant. Such things happen way too often. When her parents speak normally I don't understand much at all, but when her father was reading some text out loud from somewhere, I understood almost everything.
Derevon   
22 Jan 2010
Language / Polish locative and case declensions [16]

:)

This case is quite easy to know when to use, though. Basically it's used with the prepositions "w" (in), "na" (on) and "przy" (by) e.g. when they describe where something is, e.g:

Jestem w Polsce - I'm in Poland
Jestem na pokładzie - I'm on board
Jest przy umywalce - It's by the washstand

And it's sometimes used after the preposition "o" (about) with certain verbs like "myślić" (to think). Myślę o rzeczach - I'm thinking about things.
Derevon   
22 Jan 2010
Language / Polish locative and case declensions [16]

*Sigh* I knew I would do some stupid mistakes. "a" in szefa? I have no idea what I was thinking. Thanks for the corrections, though. If some admin would like to fix those two errors in the first post it would be nice. lwi -> lwie and szefa -> szef. I tried to go through it very thoroughly in order to weed out all sorts of errors, so I don't think there should be too many of them.
Derevon   
22 Jan 2010
Language / Polish locative and case declensions [16]

bravo,

No, I'm just a learner. Poles don't really need to know this stuff, because it all comes natural to them. ;)
Derevon   
22 Jan 2010
Language / Polish locative and case declensions [16]

Locative case declensions are among the hardest in the Polish language due to
the sheer number of declension patterns, so I decided to put together some
descriptions on how they're formed (with a bit of help from my grammar book of
course).

1.1 - MALE AND NEUTER ADJECTIVES (SINGULAR)
Adjectives in the male and neuter locative singular take "-ym"/"-im"-ending. To
form the locative of a male adjective in the singular, simply add an "m" at the
end:

mały -> małym
stary -> starym
tani -> tanim
głupi -> głupim

1. 2 - FEMALE ADJECTIVES (SINGULAR)
The female locative singular form of an adjective can easily be created by
removing the final "y" from the male nominative singular form and by adding "ej" at
the end:

mały -> małej
duży -> dużej

In the event that the male nominative singular form of a noun ends in "-i", keep
this "i" and append "ej" at the end:

lekki -> lekkiej
głupi -> głupiej

1.3 - ADJECTIVES OF ALL GENDERS, PLURAL
To form the plural locative from a male singular nominative adjective, simply add
"ch" at the end:

mały -> małych
stary -> starych
lekki -> lekkich
tani -> tanich

===========================================================

2 - NOUN DECLENSIONS IN THE SINGULAR
In this part, the locative noun declensions in the singular will be listed. They are
here divided into four different categories: Declensions for all genders and
female-specific genders ending in "-e" (2.1), male and neuter gender declensions
in "-u" (2.2), female gender declensions in "-y"/"-i" (2.3) and neuter gender
specific declensions (2.4). Aside from the endings, vowel transformations (and
also consonant transformations) frequently occur all the way back to the last
vowel of the stem.

POSSIBLE VOWEL TRANSFORMATIONS
===========================================================
A ===> E (gwiazda -> gwieździe)
Ą ===> Ę (wąż -> wężu)
E ===> - (lew -> lwi)
O ===> e (anioł -> aniele)
Ó ===> O (gwóźdź -> gwoździu)
Ó ===> E (popiół -> popiele)
===========================================================

2.1.1 - DECLENSIONS COMMON TO ALL GENDERS ("-E"-ENDING)

Nouns whose stems end in a hard consonant (except male nouns in -g, -k and
-ch) have declensions with "-e"-endings of some kind (with the exceptions
of neuter gender nouns in "" and "-ię"). Sometimes consonant- and/or
vowel transformations occur.
===========================================================
B: choroba -> chorobie[b -> bie]
D: błąd -> błędzie[d -> dzie]
F: szefa -> szefie[f -> fie]
£: piła -> pile[ł -> le]
M: prom -> promie[m -> mie]
N: okno -> oknie[n -> nie]
P: sklep -> sklepie[p -> pie]
R: doktor -> doktorze[r -> rze]
S: los -> losie[s -> sie]
T: rata -> racie[t -> cie]
W: piwo -> piwie[w -> wie]
Z: obóz -> obozie[z -> zie]
===========================================================

2.1.2 - FEMALE-SPECIFIC DECLENSIONS ("-E"-ENDING):

Female gender nouns ending in -ga, -cha, -ka, and -sna are all declined with
"-e"-endings as follows:
===========================================================
GA: potęga -> potędze[ga -> dze]
CHA: blacha -> blasze[cha -> sze]
KA: Ameryka -> Ameryce[ka -> ce]
SNA: sosna -> sośnie[sna -> śnie]
===========================================================

2.2 - MALE- AND NEUTER-SPECIFIC DECLENSIONS ("-U"-ENDING):

Male and neuter gender nouns with soft stem endings or so called functionally
soft stem endings along with nouns having hard stem endings in -g, -k or -ch
all take some form of "-u"-ending with softenings occurring as appropriate.
Occasionally some nouns whose nominative forms end in a hard consonant
may have a stem whose ending is soft. These nouns also belong in this
category, e.g. żółw -> żółwiu.
===========================================================
C: koc -> kocu[c -> cu]
G: stóg -> stogu[g -> gu]
CH: ucho -> uchu[ch -> chu]
J: jajo -> jaju[j -> ju]
K: mak -> maku[k -> ku]
L: szal -> szalu[l -> lu]
Ż: wąż -> wężu[ż -> żu]
RZ: morze -> morzu[rz -> rzu]
SZ: gulasz -> gulaszu[sz -> szu]
CZ: mecz -> meczu[cz -> czu]
D-: gwóźdź -> gwoździu[dź -> dziu]
Ć: gość -> gościu[ć -> ciu]
Ń: kamień -> kamieniu[ń -> niu]
Ś: struś -> strusiu[ś -> siu]

IE: wyrażenie -> wyrażeniu [ie -> iu]
IO: dziadzio -> dziadziu [io -> iu]

Subcategories:
IEĆ: paznokieć -> paznokciu[ieć -> ciu]
NIEC: koniec -> końcu[niec -> ńcu]
RZEC: dworzec -> dworcu[rzec -> rcu]
===========================================================

2.3 - FEMALE-SPECIFIC DECLENSIONS ("-Y"/"-I"-ENDING):

Female gender nouns whose stem end in a soft or functionally soft consonant
are declined in the exact same way as female gender nouns in the genitive.
===========================================================
C: czarownica -> czarownicy[ca -> cy]
Ż: wieża -> wieży[ża -> ży]
CZ: tęcza -> tęczy[cza -> czy]
RZ: burza -> burzy[rza -> rzy]
SZ: dusza -> duszy[sza -> szy]
Ć: sieć -> sieci[ć -> ci]
JA: Rosja -> Rosji[ja -> ji]
VOWEL + J/JA: aleja -> alei[ja -> i]
L: czapla -> czapli[l -> li]
Ń: przyjaźń -> przyjaźni[ń -> ni]
Ś: wieś -> wsi[ś -> si]
-: więź -> więzi[ź -> zi]
IA: szklarnia -> szklarni[ia -> i]
IA*: awaria -> awarii[ia -> ii]
D-: mie -> miedzi[ź -> zi]
===========================================================
* Words of foreign origin ending in "-ia" take the "-ii"-ending rather than "-i".

2.4 - NEUTER-SPECIFIC DECLENSIONS:
===========================================================
Ę: zwierzę -> zwierzęciu [ę -> ęciu]
: im -> imieniu [ię -> ieniu]
UM*: muzeum -> muzeum [um -> um] (no change)
===========================================================
* Neuter gender words in "-um" are not inflected in the singular.

2.5 - NOUNS WHICH ARE DECLINED AS ADJECTIVES
===========================================================
Certain nouns, for example some ending in "-owy" and "-owa", are declined
just as if they were adjectives of genders matching their ending.

Examples:
szeregowy -> szeregowym
krawcowa -> krawcowej

Many common Polish surnames are declined as adjectives, for example:
Kowalski -> Kowalskim (man), Kowalska -> Kowalskiej (woman).

Place names ending in "-e" which are declined as adjectives take "-em"-ending
rather than "-ym"/"-im"- or "-ej"-ending:

Zakopane -> Zakopanem
Szczodre -> Szczodrem
===========================================================

3 - NOUN DECLENSIONS IN THE PLURAL LOCATIVE (ALL GENDERS)

The plural form of nouns in the locative is normally formed by simply attaching
"-ach" at the end of the stem, or if necessary, -"iach".
===========================================================
Nouns whose stems end in B, C, D, F, G, CH, J, K, L, M, N, P, R, S, T, W, Z,
Ż, CZ, RZ and SZ, have their locative plural forms created simply by adding
"-ach" to the stem, unless they have a soft stem ending not obvious from the
male nominative form, like "żółw" (żółwiach). Examples: droga -> drogach,
stół -> stołach

Nouns ending in Ć, Ń, Ś and - have their respective final letter lose their
accent and have "-iach" attached at the end, e.g. ćwierć -> ćwierciach

Nouns ending in "-i" + a vowel have their final vowel removed and "ach" added:
awaria -> awariach, dziadzio -> dziadziach

Neuter gender nouns ending in "" (not "-ię") take the ending "-ętach":
zwierzę -> zwierzętach

Neuter gender nouns ending in "-ię" take the ending "-ionach":
im -> imionach

A few countries which are in the plural have irregular locative plural forms:
Niemcy -> Niemczech (Germany)
Węgry -> Węgrzech (Hungary)
Włochy -> Włoszech (Italy)
===========================================================

I hope this makes some sense and that I didn't make too many errors.
Comments are appreciated. Always remember that practice makes perfect.
Good luck!
Derevon   
21 Jan 2010
Language / Declension of town names in prepositional phrases in Polish [22]

For some reason the stem ending of "Wrocław" is soft, even though it's not visible from the nominative form. Therefore it's conjugated as a noun with soft ending (-iu). It's the same things as with żółw. As to why these words have soft endings, I have absolutely no idea though.
Derevon   
21 Jan 2010
Language / Declension of town names in prepositional phrases in Polish [22]

Thanks. ;) I live in Wrocław, so the last one is easy for me, and I would guess the first and/or the second might be declined as an adjective. As for "Ostrów Mazowiecka", I'm quite confused. What does Mazowiecka agree with?
Derevon   
19 Jan 2010
Language / Declension of town names in prepositional phrases in Polish [22]

As a rule, nouns with stems ending in any of the following letters have "-ie" endings with no modifications:

B, F, M, N, P, S, W, Z:

£aba -> £abie (Elbe)
Strefa -> Strefie (Zone)
Prom -> Promie (ferry)
Zmiana -> Zmianie (change)
Mapa -> Mapie (map)
Los -> Losie (fate, destiny, outcome, chance)
Warszawa -> Warszawie (Warsaw)
Waza -> Wazie (tureen)

Nouns ending in any of the letters below, also have -ie-ending, but with some modifications:

D, T:

Wada -> Wadzie (flaw, fault)
Blata -> Blacie (tabletop, counter)

The following have endings in "-e" with various modifications. These are:

CHA, GA, KA, £, R:

Blacha -> Blasze (metal plate)
Ulga -> Uldze (relief)
Ameryka -> Ameryce (America)
Upał -> Upale (heat, hot weather)
Lustro -> Lustrze (mirror)

Words with stems ending in the following have locative endings in -u without modifications (with the exception of feminine nouns ending in -cha, -ga and -ka):

C, G, CH, J, K, L, Ż, CZ, RZ, SZ:

Koc -> Kocu (blanket)
Waga -> Wagu (scales)
Dach -> Dachu (roof)
Kraj -> Kraju (country)
Szok -> Szoku (shock)
Stal -> Stalu (steel)
ż -> Wężu (snake) (notice also how ą turns into ę)
Mecz -> Meczu (match)
Powietrze -> Powietrzu (air)
Kosz -> Koszu (basket)

Nouns with stems ending in either of the following have modified -u-endings:

Ć, Ń, Ś, -, ŚĆ:

£okieć -> £okciu (elbow) (note that the e disappears)
Cień -> Cieniu (shadow, shade)
Struś -> Strusiu (ostrich)
Niedźwiedź -> Niedźwiedziu (bear)

There are several other types of declensions too, but I ran out of time. I guess I should have separated them by gender too, since some of the stem endings differ with gender.
Derevon   
13 Jan 2010
Language / I need some encouragement from Polish language speakers! [30]

"Context" and "phrases" are two very important keywords when learning Polish. When it comes to for example learning all those personal pronouns, rather than learning all the 100 or so different forms in a table, you should put them in simple sentences and learn these sentences by heart. I already put together such sentences when practicing myself, and those are available as electronic flash cards (tagged "personal_pronoun") available in Anki: ichi2.net/anki/ in the Polish-English deck available for download from inside it. These sentences are like: "nie ma go tu", "dała mu pieniądze" etc, and they worked rather well for me.

Another good way to get a feel for Polish syntax etc is through watching movies and/or TV-series with Polish subtitles. These subtitles are also good for taking practice sentences from). Also remember that there is a huge difference between proper written Polish and Polish as it's actually spoken on the streets, so if your aim is mainly being able to converse in Polish, reading news sites and similar will not be very helpful, and contrariwise, if you want to be able to read news sites, dealing with colloquial situations is not very effective. As for myself I've been focusing too much on reading, and as a result I don't really understand very well when people talk in Polish (unless they're reading some text out loud or something).
Derevon   
11 Jan 2010
Language / Which is the BEST, EASIEST to learn & most helpful"POLISH FOR FOREIGNERS"course? [32]

Pimsleur is good, although it will not take you very far. It's definitely not worth $270. Perhaps I'd pay $40 for it or so. Polish in 4 weeks is not bad; it covers all the most important things, it has fairly natural sounding dialogues, and it teaches you a vocabulary of some 1200 - 1400 or so words, although too many of them I would say are too rare to be taught at such an early level (not that you're forced to learn them or anything).

As for grammar, you can't really do without special grammar practice it in Polish. Especially the verb conjugations are important (seeing as personal pronouns in the nominative are generally omitted).

For learning and memorizing new words I recommend the program "Anki"

You can create your own sets of flash cards with words you encounter, or you can download mine (containing some 7700 entries including words, sentences, phrases and expressions, including most words from Polish in 4 Weeks and many many other).

Watching movies/TV-series with Polish subtitles is helpful too for learning conversational Polish. The really tricky part with Polish, though, is listening comprehension. I have yet to find any good way to practise this as it's almost impossible to find Polish movies with Polish subtitles.
Derevon   
3 Jan 2010
Language / Which preposition for 'at'? [58]

that would be too easy yeah.

Yeah, the rule is that if anything ever seems easy in Polish, you probably misunderstood it. ;)
Derevon   
3 Jan 2010
Language / Which preposition for 'at'? [58]

Prepositions have nothing to do with this. You have to see the verbs as a whole. I told you that many different prefixes are used, and sometimes not even prefixes, but endings...

For every English words, you need to know two forms for it in Polish (sometimes even three). If you want to learn the word for "write", you have to find both the imperfective and perfective forms (pisać and napisać). You have to look up both forms, because the perfective verbs can be formed in many different ways.
Derevon   
3 Jan 2010
Language / Which preposition for 'at'? [58]

Przeczytać is the perfective equivalent of "czytać". The difference is:

przeczytam - I will read (emphasis on the result of the reading or the completion)
będę czytać/czytał/czytała - I will read / be reading (emphasis on the ongoing action itself, or that it's a habitual action)

Będę czytać/czytał/czytała codziennie tego roku - I will read every day this year
Przeczytam ten list - I will read this letter (read it through completely)

Most verbs have imperfective and perfective forms, but they don't always have the same prefixes, and sometimes not even prefixes at all. Here are some pairs (imperfective/perfective):

tańczyć/potańczyć
robić/zrobić
tworzyć/utworzyć
przepraszać/przeprosić
zwiedzać/zwiedz
zwalniać/zwoln

Common prefixes for perfective verbs are for example "po-", "za-", "z-" and "s-"

Sometimes the words are even totally different:
widzieć/zobaczyć
Derevon   
3 Jan 2010
Language / WHY IS SATELITA MASCULINE? [25]

But those words you listed describe people who are by definition or potentially male, so I don't count them. "Satelita" on the other hand, doesn't.
Derevon   
3 Jan 2010
Life / Do expats living in Poland speak Polish? [233]

To learn to speak and understand a language (spoken) has little or nothing to do with orthography, though. The fact that just about any word can be pronounced solely based on the spelling is helpful, but it will not make it easier to learn to understand the language itself. It will just help when reading out loud, and it saves some time in that you don't need to look up the pronunciation of words.
Derevon   
3 Jan 2010
Language / Which preposition for 'at'? [58]

Chaza, you're mixing up everything. I will try to explain how Polish verbs work.

First of all most verbs have 2 forms, an imperfective and a perfective. The imperfective form is used when emphasis is on the action itself rather than completion, and when it's about habitual actions. Perfective verbs are used when emphasis is on the completion (only in the past and in the future, never in the present).

Every verb (imperfective as well as perfective) has an infinitive form. The basic form which is equivalent with for example "to talk", "to run" etc.

All imperfective verbs have 6 forms for simple present. 1st, 2nd and 3rd person singular and plural (3*2=6).

Let's take the verb "czytać" (to read):

Infinitive: czytać (to read)

The stem from which all forms of this verb are formed is "czyta".

Simple present forms:
1p sg: czytam (I'm reading)
2p sg: czytasz (You're reading)
3p sg: czyta (He/she/it is reading)
1p pl: czytamy (We're reading)
2p pl: czytacie (You're reading)
3p pl: czytają (They're reading)

The perfective verbs don't have a form for present actions, so their equivalent forms describe actions in the future (with emphasis on completion).

Infinitive: przeczytać (to read [through to the end])
1p sg: przeczytam (I will read)
2p sg: przeczytasz (You will read)
3p sg: przeczyta (He/she/it will read)
1p pl: przeczytamy (We will read)
2p pl: przeczytacie (You will read)
3p pl: przeczytają (They will read)

To form the future form of imperfective verbs, the verb "być" + infinitive, or "być" + 3p sg. past are used:

będę czytać/czytał/czytała (I will read)
będziesz czytać/czytał/czytała (You will read)
...

Next we have the 13 past forms:

singular:
czytałem (I read/was reading [male])
czytałam (I read [female])
Czytał (You read [said to a male])
Czytał (You read [said to a female])
czytał (He read)
czytała (she read)
czytało (it read)

plural:
czytaliśmy (We read [at least one of "we" is a man])
czytałyśmy (We read [non-men only])
czytaliście (You read [at least one man])
czytałyście (You read [non-men only])
czytali (They read [at least one man])
czytały (They read [non-men only])

Przeczytać is conjugated in the exact same way, but with emphasis on the completion of the reading and the result.

Finally we have the conditional mood which is formed using the particle "by":

singular:
Czytałbym (I would read [male])
Czytałabym (I would read [female])
Czytałbyś (You would read [male])
Czytałabyś (You would read [female])
Czytałby (He would read)
Czytałaby (She would read)
Czytałoby (It would read)

plural:
czytalibyśmy (We would read [at least one man])
czytałybyśmy ( We would read [non-men only])
czytalibyście (You would read [at least one man])
czytałybyście (You would read [non-men only])
czytaliby (They would read [at least one man])
czytałyby (They would read [non-men only])

Study these patterns carefully, and try to understand the logic behind them. Not every verb follows the exact same pattern, though, there are many other forms. Just remember to take one thing at a time, and don't move on until you fully comprehend something.

There are of course other forms to like the imperative mood, verbal nouns etc, but one thing at a time...
Derevon   
2 Jan 2010
Language / WHY IS SATELITA MASCULINE? [25]

The thing with "satelita" is that it's one of extremely few nouns ending in -a that is male (not counting those that describe an individual who is by definition male, or potentially male). The only other word I know of is "boa", but I guess it's male just because it's implied "wąż boa". If anyone knows of any others, feel free to share.
Derevon   
2 Jan 2010
Language / Perfective vs Imperfective - grammar [150]

Jan 2, 10, 18:36 - Thread attached on merging:
Perfective vs. Imperfective aspect

What is the difference in meaning between:

"zdawał sobie sprawę" and "zdał sobie sprawę"?
Derevon   
2 Jan 2010
Language / Which preposition for 'at'? [58]

It seems to me the only people who actually manage to learn to speak/understand Polish (or other complicated languages) are the ones who don't really try that hard and who don't really care much about grammar. They simply immerse themselves in situations where only Polish is spoken. They make loads of mistakes at first but gradually get better and better.

I've also noticed that black people and Arabs tend to pick up difficult languages much faster than most white Europeans etc. I once met a Nigerian guy in Arkhangelsk, Russia, who told me that he didn't really manage to learn Russian until he stopped thinking about what he was saying and just started to say what came to him naturally. The fact that he had a Russian girlfriend who didn't really speak much English helped a lot too of course.

I also read somewhere that Eritrean immigrants in Finland learn Finnish much, much faster than Swedish immigrants. I'm not saying it's about genetics or anything. I would rather guess it's that they have a more relaxed approach to language acquisition and perhaps that their native languages are more complex. Maybe certain other factors too, like being less "obsessed" about thinking in terms of rigid rules and correct vs incorrect.

What you do when you use multi-language text books and grammar books is that you learn to understand a foreign language from the point of view of your own, and this, I believe, is the main reason why it simply doesn't work. I think that in order to really achieve any success you somehow have to unlearn or forget everything you know about your own language, and try to learn things as if you were a little child who sees things for the first time. I also believe it's important not to spend too much time on the "why's". It's much better to focus on the "how's". Languages are not known for their infallible logic after all, and if you try to make sense of everything you're just bound to be confused and frustrated.
Derevon   
1 Jan 2010
Language / Which preposition for 'at'? [58]

You can also find conjugations of most verbs here: polish.slavic.pitt.edu/~swan/beta/
Derevon   
1 Jan 2010
Language / Which preposition for 'at'? [58]

it should be Co mógłbyś dla mnie zrobić but that reads 'what could for me to do' it sounds wrong.

mógłbym - I could [man]
mogłabym - I could [woman]
mógłbyś - you could [said to a man]
mogłabyś - you could [said to a woman]
mógłby - he could
mogłaby - she could
mogłoby - it could

the word for word translation is: "What you could for me do"
Derevon   
1 Jan 2010
Language / Which preposition for 'at'? [58]

Forget about "ing"! It's an English construction. Think like "I would like to go to dance".
Derevon   
1 Jan 2010
Language / Which preposition for 'at'? [58]

Chaza, you must change your tactics completely. Your method will never work, you're just wasting your time. Perhaps you should try something like Pimsleur's Polish, Rosetta Stone or the Michel Thomas method instead. You need to have Polish as your starting point rather than trying to translate literally word for word from English to Polish.

I would like to go dancing - Chciałbym iść potańczyć

See, here we have one word with the same meaning as three words in English. "Chciałbym" = I would like. This sentence has 6 words in English but just 3 in Polish. "potańczyć" = "to dance". The English form "dancing" can't be translated directly. Frankly, the rule (not the exception) is that nothing can be translated directly between English and Polish.

What could you do for me? - Co mógłbyś dla mnie zrobić?
Derevon   
1 Jan 2010
Language / Which preposition for 'at'? [58]

You have to understand that Polish and English are very different languages and work in different ways. For example, in one of your sentences you translated "to go" as "do iść". Although "do" sometimes can be translated as "to" in English, it has a very different meaning here. "To" as in the infinitive marker is already contained in the infinitive form of a Polish verb. "Iść" means "to go", not just "go", so "chcę iść" means "I want to go".

You should try to read simple Polish texts and analyze them to find out how the Polish language works rather than trying to put together sentences by translating them word for word from English. Not only will your method result in unintelligible, near-unintelligible, or at best, understandable but unidiomatic sentences, but you will also not understand much when people talk. Translating word for word from English to for example Swedish would work rather well since these two languages are closely related, but Polish and English are simply too different.