Law / Setting up SPZOO and SPK in Poland [16]

This is quite a common structure, especially for larger Polish owned family businesses and is also often used by lawyers, accounting practices etc but you will need to be doing about PLN 350k of profits (so lets say PLN 1m of turnover) to make it pay versus a regular Sp z o.o and it does involve quite a lot of extra admin.

Few pieces of advice

- make sure you accountant speaks English and explains it to you step by step. Of the ones listed Trinity would certainly be able to do that. Not sure about the others.

- make sure you trust your business partner fully and have a strong right of exit in the foundation deed for the SpK.
- Better to start in January rather than December as otherwise you will have a whole bunch of admin for a stub period where you have no profits.

Overall maybe it is better to see if your business model works first and that you will have profits before diving into this structure.

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]

A lot of nonsense being spouted by the usual suspects, most of whom seem unable to overcome their personal animus against Milky. Nobody would choose to live in such a small flat long term if they could afford bigger. In fact it appears we are going to go full circle to the 35 sqm flats with 3 generations in that I visited on my first trip to Poland in 92.

Comparisons with Nice and Hong Kong are nonsense. Nice is a beautiful place with beautiful food, beautiful climate and ocean views (pity about the stony beach). Hong Kong is not one of the nicest places going but in the Chinese speaking world it is the best place to earn a living and there are lots of Chinese.

There is a huge difference between 35 sqm and 50 sqm - those who are saying they are fine with 50m are probably right. But lop 15m off that and you take away your bedroom - now how does it feel ? Want to watch TV while your wife has an early night ? tough because the lounge is now the bedroom. Want to get up early and have breakfast watching the news ? tough because your wife is asleep. Want your parents to stay ?

Once kids arrive it is even worse - want to give your missus an evening to remember ? very easy with the cot next to you and the nappies piled up in the corner of the lounge/bedroom/dining room/nursery.

I once rented a 20 sqm flat and occasionally my girlfriend would stay but this was in London in my mid 20s and I knew that it was somehow a transitory time in my life - I spent most of my time at work or doing exams, rarely needed to cook at home and was happy with a shower rather than a bath. The idea that I would buy such a place would never cross my mind ! And single people are not the core home-buying demographic - they want mobility and flexibility rather than debt and weekends at Ikea.

I cannot be bothered to discuss the semantic differences between a levelling out and a bubble but for sure prices will continue to fall to a level where they are affordable for average earners. If you want statistics and links read yesterdays GW as there was a long article on it covering all major towns.

Work / Krakow Salaries Getting Lower? Only Kids Want Lessons?? [6]

Economics ...

There are no barriers to entry in your chosen field other than a course that costs a few hundred quid and a few weeks effort.

Supply of teachers is outstripping demand from students.
Those students that do want lessons have less disposable income

Life / Expats/Immigrants in Poland: Needy, Greedy or contributor. Which one are you? [118]


But what is the cost base ? I'm guessing PLN 30 for heat and light, PLN 10 for showers and lets say PLN 30 inc ZUS to have a janitor open it up and stay on site for 1,5 hours. Add in a bit of insurance, cleaning materials, repairs (I know some of these places dont do many) and the cost of the sports equipment and you are soon at PLN 90. On that basis the PLN 100 doesnt leave a vast profit for the school. Might not be affordable for poor kids but thats not the school's worry.

Life / Expats/Immigrants in Poland: Needy, Greedy or contributor. Which one are you? [118]

Its not necessarily a Chicago school thing - more common sense. If the state provides lots of things then someone needs to pay for them and when you work out costs of things then they are often more than you expect, as I tried to point out in the example above.

The state was bankrupt in 1989. Maybe we can ask Poles whether they would rather go back to having a good football team but having to queue up all night for cuban oranges and russian shoes. Life expectancy has increased steadily and considerably since 1989 and with the arguable exception of classical music then the cultural scene is obviously much better than it was in 1989.

Travel / Early churches (built 700-1000 years ago) in Poland? [25]

If you have a halfday to spare then good little knot of older Romanesque churches starts at Gniezno then Strzelno (40km further) and Inowroclaw (another 20km).

Life / Expats/Immigrants in Poland: Needy, Greedy or contributor. Which one are you? [118]


You can always go to North Korea if you wish to see a country without capitalism.

Law / Not earning yet but spending from previously earned money and other Poland tax issues [22]

You would be much better served paying an accountant to look at this for you rather than rely on the advice of amateurs on here - all the big and middle sized firms are in Warsaw, speak English and for EUR 500 you would get 2-3 hours of someone good and a memo.

Delphian is right that such a memo is not a get out of jail free card - but in reality unless you are dealing with millions then the tax authorities won't often take you on if you have one as they don't fancy court cases where the bigger firms are defending tax payers.

And dont get too paranoid about posting your name here - I've been dealing with polish tax offices for 13 years and never met anyone who could speak more than a few sentances of English. Most of them just want a quiet life and even those that are keen generally recognize that expats bring investment and jobs to Poland so will give you some latitude and some time to fill in formalities so long as you are not actually being dishonest.

UK, Ireland / Getting the most from my hard earned money (transfer money from England to Poland) [41]


Its far from trivial - its a time consuming process than often needs a court order, or permission from the banking authorities and is rarely attempted unless they is evidence of a sizeable crime and a more than evens chance that the investigation will be vindicated.

Its actually about the 5th or 6th bum piece of info on this thread - and remember you guys are quick enough to rip into other English teachers for their grammar mistakes !

Real Estate / Demand for apartments low in Poland's main cities [89]


According to today's Gazeta Wyborcza.

Asking price in Wroclaw in September was 6746, actual selling price was 6367. So its already 10% lower than what you believed. That's of course what Pip would refer to as a levelling out.

Real Estate / Demand for apartments low in Poland's main cities [89]

He has already said that he does not gamble and yet you continue to behave like a kid in a playground. But the terms you have set on your bet are ridiculuous - if there are 5 price bands or 5 size bands and 4 of them fall by 50% but one by only 19% then you win. And in any case data would not be available.

So how about a more reasonable bet - that in 6 of the 7 towns on the front of todays property section of GW the average selling price falls by 20% by October 2012 ? Still happy to offer those 10-1 odds ? money where your mouth is and all that.

Real Estate / Demand for apartments low in Poland's main cities [89]


warsaw, krakow, gdansk, lodz, katowice, poznan, wroclaw

I'm not planning to adjust it. Thats the bet I'm offering. If there was demand for higher price units then they would be the ones being built.


so no vested interests then ?

Real Estate / Demand for apartments low in Poland's main cities [89]

I dont mean your vested interests, I mean the builders vested interest ! :)

Real Estate / Demand for apartments low in Poland's main cities [89]


OK, you're on. The city I pick is Wroclaw and can we now agree price bands ? How about

250k or below
250k to 500k
500k to 750k
750k to 1m

and size bands

under 40 sqm
40-70sqm
70-100sqm

I dont know where you are going to get your banded info from. Please suggest a source. The avg per sqm in Wroclaw in September 2011 was PLN 6367 per tableaofert.pl quoed in GW on 21st October.

By a year we refer to 12 months, i.e. September 2012. And you are offering me 10-1, i.e. CMS wins 1000 PLN from your 100 if I am right.

To be settled over a pint in Jimmy Bradleys in October 2012 with the loser also buying the ale.

I'll post again on my bet in a few mins when I have read the paper.

If you go back to post 49 I never offered 10-1. I was asking you if you would offer 10-1! This bet is at evens for PLN 100 or I will give you 2-1 if the number of cities showing 20% falls is 5 rather than 7. In total with the other bet that puts 300 zlots of my hard earned on the table and 200 of yours.

to answer your questions

a) yes city limits
b) yes, but actually I would bet the same if we talked about houses, retail rents, warehouse rents, office rents, famland.
c) sale prices
d) yes PLN prices only
e) dunno, tableaofera.pl and the prices they had on Friday were

Katowice 5113
Krakow 6740
Lodz 5042
Poznan 6094
Gdansk 6094 (just coincidence that same as Poznan presumably)
Warsaw 7831
Wroclaw 6367

If you have a more reliable source then please suggest.

Again to be settled in a boozer next October ! Not sure if polishforums has any rules about internet gambling but we can take further discussions to PM.

good luck !

Work / Info on Wages in Poland (start salary for an accountant position?) [7]

How big is the fund ?

How much post qualified experience do you have ?

I would have thought PLN 12-14k per month if in Warsaw but if its a very big fund you could get more.

Don't overplay your hand - there are lots of good Polish accountants on the market in Warsaw waiting to leave firms.

Work / Info on Wages in Poland (start salary for an accountant position?) [7]

Dont know what you have been offered, but if you are not qualified then I would cut my previous figures in half - you could get a polish qualified english speaking person for that money.

Real Estate / Banks in Poland selling fewer mortgages in 2011, down 49% [285]


You must have missed the article in Gazeta Wyborcza on Saturday that talked of falls of 40-50% in land prices around major cities. Its not apartments obviously but it is going to give people much more reason to buy and build even if it means a few years of grief with the builders.

And from personal experience I'm looking at a commercial property now - just had a professional valuation done that is more than 30% less than the original asking price and 10% less than what I was going to offer. Even I was shocked by the negative sentiment in it !

Real Estate / Banks in Poland selling fewer mortgages in 2011, down 49% [285]


So your happy with this quote ? provided by REAS

"general correction of the level of prices which in the years 2006-2008 experienced strong upward pressure due to speculative bubble and demand for cheap money".

Real Estate / Banks in Poland selling fewer mortgages in 2011, down 49% [285]


Er that was me and my name's not Mark !

Real Estate / Banks in Poland selling fewer mortgages in 2011, down 49% [285]

Banks should not lend based on combined earnings - when I lived in conservative Germany they always lent on the basis of the higher wage earner x 3.

Reasons are obvious, at least 30% of marriages end in divorce and 80% of marriages involve kids at some stage which means one partner taking less hours and increased costs in the household budget. Add in periods of unemployment, early death etc and its not prudent to use combined earnings.

The shadow economy is well documented in Poland and is maybe 29% (World Bank) or 12% (GUS) but probably somewhere between. However these earnings do not have much effect on the housing market - they are concentrated at the bottom end where people are young and floating around (farm work, restaurant work, building work) and at the top end (drug dealers, pimps, bent politicians) where people would probably pay for their McMansions in cash. English teaching

is one of the few middle class professions where a second job paying cash is viable. Even people that used to take cash like doctors and dentists do so far less frequently now.

Real Estate / Banks in Poland selling fewer mortgages in 2011, down 49% [285]

I agree that comparisons of pricing with East Germany are probably not that meaningful.

What is meaningful however is that Warsaw prices are now similar to Germany's three richest cities, Duesseldorf, Munich and Frankfurt yet wages are about 40% of the amount.

Real Estate / Banks in Poland selling fewer mortgages in 2011, down 49% [285]

Er you are forgetting interest rates? These will need to be hiked to support the currency and that will far outweigh all the other effects.

Real Estate / Banks in Poland selling fewer mortgages in 2011, down 49% [285]

A sound strategy is 30 per cent each of cash/bonds, property and shares and leave 10 percent to invest in something high risk. Problem in uk, us, Ireland and now Poland is that people end up with much more than 50 percent tied up in their home. Taking equity out of your home was very rare until the late 80s.

Real Estate / Banks in Poland selling fewer mortgages in 2011, down 49% [285]

The figure given by the banks in 70 percent which is much more believable ( these are nbp figures). 40 percent was 10 years ago.

And of the remaining 30 percent they are from the poorest sections of the population and I don't think they are sitting on vast amounts of undisclosed wealth.

Language / Word for 'deadline'? [14]

Termin is the accepted polish term in every business I have known. But deadline is also understood by most poles

Life / The Adult Entertainment Industry in Poland? [67]

there is a Polish producer called something like Polki TV or maybe Polka TV - they are quite a big business from memory (did some accounting work for them a few years ago).

Food / Coffee in Poland: cheap and undrinkable / expensive and good [89]

I dont much like their coffee but I drink in Starbucks more often here than I do in other countries. There are a few advantages over regular coffee places.

- it has a clean toilet and you dont have to ask for the key.
- they are polite and serve you quickly.
- the food is not exciting but its not too fatty or greasy or old.
- there is wifi that is easy to operate and doesnt need any codes.

I think both Starbucks and Coffee Heaven are really expensive now - if its just a coffee for the train or a 10 minute sit down I often now just fo to McD or KFC where coffee is 4 zlots instead of 10.

Work / Salary Expectations Question (Krakow, Fund Accounting) [19]

Good effort ! they are really rare over here.

Won't work in accounting however - if someone does the "same" work as you but quicker and with less mistakes the employer is obviously going to pay them more.

I wouldnt listen too much to what is on internet forums on these self certified employee things - if you are concerned about things then ask at interview but they are probably not desperate - the pendulum is swinging back to employers now.

Work / Chartered accountant from India joining a company in Poland. Cost of living in Poznan? [29]

It means qualified accountants - which is what the original poster asked about. i.e. people able to sign an audit, provide a valuation, represent a client in court etc.

Accounts clerks which is what you are talking about earn about PLN 3.000 in most big Polish towns.

Real Estate / Residential real estate values go down in Poland [455]


Not sure if this meets your definition of "levelling" but PKO the biggest lender are forecasting a 30% drop in next 2 years

Housing prices in Poland will fall also in the next year - forecasts PKO BP , the largest player on the mortgage market . Analysts do not rule out that the bank's nightmare scenario , that is dramatic depreciation of housing.

We got to the latest report of PKO BP , which states that at least the middle of next year most likely is to "keep a small downward trend in prices ."

I've already nailed my own colours to the mast at 20%.