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Posts by Nathan  

Joined: 13 Feb 2009 / Male ♂
Last Post: 24 Aug 2014
Threads: Total: 18 / Live: 4 / Archived: 14
Posts: Total: 1349 / Live: 254 / Archived: 1095
From: Lviv, Ukraine/Toronto, Canada
Speaks Polish?: yes
Interests: languages

Displayed posts: 258 / page 6 of 9
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Nathan   
16 Sep 2010
News / Chechen Congress in Poland, Russia frowns [90]

This is why

:))))))))))))) Wow, some words from the movie: "Media presents the Chechens as peaceful and righteous people. But is this true?" The very beginning of the video is a generalizing statement about the whole nation which is wrong to do, because each one of us is different as you might suspect. Next: "A Chechen is sentenced to 2 years for beating his wives and kids" - Haven't we seen a Pole or any other national beating or even killing his wife and kids and being imprisoned? Here are some articles about most famous wife-beater in Poland Krzysztof Bartoszuk, incestuous father, sentenced to 10 years for beating his wife and daughter while having two kids from the latter!

suite101.com/content/polish-fritzl-sentenced-to-10-years-in -jail-a198521

Should all representatives of your nation be called scum just because of this dude or hundred more who might be living still non-caught in Poland?

Next: "58 Chechens caught with different types of weapon: knives, castets, telescopic sticks, guns. The next day all, but 4 were released" - It says about something, doesn't it. People are not released like that from custody if they are accused or suspected in wrong-doing. Next article is just a repetition.

Here is some additional onfo for you and food to think:

poland.pl/news/article,Silesian_arms_gang_arrested,id,417669.htm

mafiatoday.com/other-mafia-orgs/uk-slaves-polish-mafia-boss-arrested/

1st says about Polish gang involved in selling arms. 2nd tells the Polish mafia boss who sold Polish slaves to the UK underground world for 12-hour long labor literally like slaves, living in slums and getting nothing but spit on. Should I consider, based on your way of thinking, that all Poles are scum and be immediately deported from the UK to Poland "as a gesture of good will"?
Nathan   
16 Sep 2010
News / Chechen Congress in Poland, Russia frowns [90]

Round up all Chechen scum and deport to Russia.

Well, scum like you should be sent to the North pole where rates of decomposition are slower.

so maybe it's time for the Kacapy to catch up with the human race.

Will they ever?!
Nathan   
13 Aug 2010
History / Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious? [239]

You talk about Cossacks but you don’t mention that Cossacks live in eastern Ukraine

Poles don't live in Poland, they live in eastern Poland.

I could continue this but all in all in don’t want to take your dignity from you.

My dignity you can take only by blowing me.
Nathan   
13 Aug 2010
History / Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious? [239]

some don't want independence, some prefer Poland.

Some Polish said the following (from the other thread, interpreted in my words):
"I am not a Pole anymore, I am a Russian forever". It happened to be a Polish king. There are different people everywhere. And people see the issue differently. Some Ukrainians were on Soviet's sides as the latter initially supported the independance of Ukraine. Otherwise, most of them wouldn't have even took a stick in their hands. Many of these people, who knew nothing of the consequences of the communism and its Russian occupation implication, dreamt of better life. Of course, majority of these people were those who had nothing and the promise to have a piece of something was very appealing. Big farmers or small property owners have never sided with the Soviets. Ukraine in 1924 was declared a republic in a Union of other "free" republics. BS, of course, but who knew? Their aspirations were crushed soon after. Regarding your preferrance of Poland as opposed to the state's independance, it is a ridiculous statement, even not worth commenting.

I know you fought against the children in Lwów.

Well, of course. Ukrainian Cossacks fought with women, L'viv defenders fought with kids and UPA - with both. What else have you learnt in Polish history? If there were kids in L'viv, these "kids" (veterans of the Polish Military Organization + students) attacked Ukrainians as soon as the latter declared Ukrainian independance and L'viv as a capital. If you have "kids" shooting at you with guns, well, what do you so? Surrender to "kids"? ;)

We all did read your links, and it gave us nothing !

Probably, because you are glorious.

Is there an Ukrainian language these days

Yes, there is. And millions speak it. And there is English, which despite the fact that it is being spoken by millions worldwide, it still evades your blind-folded mind, unable to learn its basics: to put articles appropriately.

And if some Ukrainians felt betrayed, I'm sorry for them, but does that make Poland the worst country ever ?

Of course, it doesn't. Every country has a dark part in its history. And nobody said it is the worst or even worse than others. Why do you make stuff up?

Many of them supported "Denekin"

You, probably, meant Denikin. If you can't spell the name of the general and put him in "" how can you even claim how many supported him. Any source? Here is some info about Ukrainian "support" of Denikin:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Denikin

Leon Trotsky, as commander of Red Army forces hastily concluded an agreement with Nestor Makhno's anarchist Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine or 'Black Army' for mutual support. Makhno duly turned his Black Army east and led his troops against Denikin's extended lines of supply, forcing him to retreat

Well, one of Ukrainian main forces at that time - Ukrainian Insurgent Revolutionary Army of Nestor Makhno (c. 40,000 soldiers) fought against him. Denikin could gain some support of former tsar administrative clerks who had nice salary and homes or army officers stationed in different parts of Ukraine to prevent unrests. Army lower ranks and regular people had no interest whatsoever to support Russian imperialism, quite the opposite.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_Makhno

When we talk about modern Ukraine, I hold my thumbs for as independent, as unified Ukraine as it is possible.

I do the same about Poland. It is more exciting to discuss historic events when two or more interested sides of the conflict are present. I don't think you would be interested in listening to constant boring and often untrue "Glory, glory, halleluya.." no matter how sweet it makes you feel :)
Nathan   
12 Aug 2010
History / Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious? [239]

Nathan, are you Ukrainian ?

I am and there is no anger as long as Polish side doesn't let itself to sniffle pathetically about how bad or unfair Ukrainians or British were towards Poles during WWII. As soon as I see these runny hypocritic noses, it enrages me, I have to admit.
Nathan   
12 Aug 2010
History / Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious? [239]

What can’t be said about Ukrainians

Do you know Ukrainian history? Have you ever read any Ukrainian history book on 20th century? I bet you didn't. So how can you say what you said?

from the beginning many of them didn’t want independence

So why did you have to burn churches, close libraries and kick students and profs out of universities for the very fact that they were Ukrainians if no one cared? Why millions fought either against Poles, Commies or on their side? Just for fun or to gain independance? If you don't know the very basics of the subject, better learn a bit before making retarded comments.

Anny way Poland saved Europe from communism

Poland saved the world and it constantly saves. Not only from communism, from everything bad. Thanks.

Forgot Yalta already? That honor is reserved for Britain together with its ally.

What about Yalta? Poland got German lands according to the agreement. Not happy? You wanted Ukrainian lands too? What else? A part of Sweden? Without Britain you would be a part of Soviet Union for the next 70 years. So, have some respect to the ally. On the other hand, Polish are always victorious alone, allies are just worthless addition which do nothing.
Nathan   
8 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Here are fragments from the book

Of course, everyone new. And certainly he needed protection of some force since Hungarians were waiting at the border just waiting to get "Fass!" order. And this is exactly what happened a few days later when the Hungarians entered the Carpatho-Ukraine.

Poles executed Ukrainian soldiers fighting in the Carpatho-Ukraine. Pathetic Slavic bastards.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpatho-Ukraine

Augustin Voloshyn perfectly knew that the left-overs of Czechoslovakian troops won't be able to hold long against the Hungarians. I am surprised this fact bothers you. It is called diplomacy, not hot-headed suicidal mission.

That quote was about autonomous Subcarpathian Rus/Carpatho-Ukraine!!!!

Was Augustin Voloshyn a legally elected head of the mentioned autonomy within the Czechoslovakia or not? Yes, he was. And Czech army was protecting him when the Hungarians under conscent of Nazis occupied the given territory. Otherwise, he would have been arrested.

In October 1938, he was the head of the Subcarpathian Autonomous Region. During the total destruction of Czechoslovakia by Hitler's Germany, he tried to preserve Carpatho-Ukraine independence and became president of Carpatho-Ukraine for a few hours (March 15, 1939) with the help of the rest of the Czechoslovakian army. On March 19, 1939, Voloshyn under the protection of last Czechoslovakian troops retreated to the Romanian Kingdom's border, which was Czechoslovakia's ally. Subcarpathia was occupied by Hungary.

You avoid this and I see why. This is the second time I am posting it for you.

At the time of the first partition of Poland in 1772, there were some 4.7 million Uniates in the Polish-Lithuanian state and barely 400000 Orthodox believers.

How was it possible if 170 years earleir Uniates as a word haven't existed? If you have read on Cossacks uprising, which "surprisingly" started around the time of Brest Union of 1596, then the picture will become more clear as to why there was such huge unnatural discrepancy in believers.

The church in question was transfered into Catholic Cathedral in 1919, and I already posted something about it.
Only two Orthodox churches were left untouched in Polish capital. Do you know how many other were destroyed or converted into Catholic churches? Were all 'Ukrainian' churches destroyed or given back to Catholic faithful? No! So your divagations make no sense.

No, but minimum 210 were destroyed, buurnt, taken apart and material sold to Poles to build homes on Ukrainian farmer's lands. I don't see where I divagate. I am again interested why these two were left untouched in the middle of your country while Polish government destroyed hundreds of Ukrainian churches in Volyn'?

Carpatho-Ukraine under Voloshyn's government became a tool in the hands of OUN activists, and even more so it was used by Nazi Germany for its own purposes.

So what tool was it exactly? What was going on in Carpatho-Ukraine during the leadership of Augustin Voloshin?

In Carpatho-Ukraine itself an authoritarian regime was set up and characterized by:
(1) a single-party system;
(2) the adoption of a Ukrainian nationalist ideology as an official yet unconstitutional means of struggle against anyone with different political views, which permitted internment without trial at a camp in *Dumen;
(3) the establishment of a paramilitary organization, the *Carpathian Sich, which implemented by force the generally unpopular decrees of the Voloshyn government;
(4) the abolition of an independent judiciary.

He was professor of mathematics at Uzhhorod Teacher Institute from 1900 to 1917. In 1918, he became head of the Subcarpathian National Council, which in 1919 asked Czechoslovakia to confederate Transcarpathia into Czechoslovakia. This was realised in Autumn 1919. In 1925, he was voted as MP in Houses of Parliament in Prague (as a leader of Ruthenian National Christian Party). In October 1938, he was the head of the Subcarpathian Autonomous Region.

And here is to your lies as to the one-party system:

The communists, strong in the poor province, attempted to appeal to the Ukrainian element by espousing union with Soviet Ukraine. In 1935 the communists polled25 percent of the Ruthenian vote. The elections of 1935 gave only 37 percent of the Ruthenian vote to political parties supporting the Czechoslovak government. The communists, Unified Magyars, andautonomist groups polled 63 percent.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenians_and_Ukrainians_in_Czechoslovakia_(1918-1938)

As one can clearly see there were multiple parties, not ONE as you falsely claim, but at the very least 5 parties with different political agenda. So your lies is completely out of place.

Regarding Dumen internement camp:

Here are fragments from the book

Yes, I have read this book:
books.google.pl/books/about/Encyclopedia_of_Rusyn_History_and_Cultur.html?id=waAUAQAAIAAJ&hl=en

The Cultural confrontation between the Ukrainians and the Poles cost the former dearly: it forced Ukrainian nobles to choose between their own stagnant, impoverished cultural heritage an the vibrant attractive Catholic/Polish culture. Not surprisingly, the vast majority opted for Catholicism and the Polonization that invariably followed. Consequently, the Ukrainian lost their noble elite.

Well, I wouldn't agree with O. Subtelny completely as elite was not lost, but diminished. The elite that left and constantly fed by Ukrainian peasants kept Ukrainian culture alive through the centuries until 18th century were it went through the Renaissance. I agree though that Catholicism was attractive, but not as religion, but as a source of multiple interesting discoveries and literature written exclusively in Latin. This was something that attracted nobles. The heritage of Roman empire and works by Catholic scholars of Middle Ages were something to be drawn to, no doubt. Polish culture as such and mentioned after the dash only signifies that, since the major flow of the Western culture went through Poland, it might seem as a clash of two cultures. But in fact it wasn't a clash between Polish and Ukrainian cultures, but between the one of Catholicism, undergoing Renaissance at that time (Da Vinci, Michelangello, Rafaello, St. Peter's Basilica, Newton,...) and the Eastern Orthodox (deteriorating after the fall of Constantinopole in 1453 and its main Orthodox center).

they should move to Ukraine !

Ukraine is not specifically interested in Peremyshel and Holm regions to make a move. But if you insist, well, someday your wish might be granted ;)
Nathan   
8 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

would you disagree with the proposition that they would have a slightly higher standard of living, greater opportunities and more political freedom

Of course, I would. What kind of question is that? Would you disagree with the proposition that if Germany and Ukraine had common borders, Poles would have had higher standards of living than those who live in Poland now or better to say those that emigrated for better jobs and put tiles in the different toilets throughout the Europe or rip their ar*ses on roofs earning daily bread? I worked with tens of Poles like that, side by side, and I know what was life like for them. Are those Poles or millions throughout the world living "high standards" of life? Of course, not. So, why don't they come back home and dissolve Polish borders and give Germany the land since Germans will definitely raise Polish standards to the level you won't need to put tiles in the WC in some foreign country in order to provide decent living for your family.

Try to answer the questions directly do not divert to other topics, I do not ask the question out of malice

I don't think that I am diverting from the question although before posing a question like that I usually answer the same question directed to myself if asked by you. You definitely haven't done that. Now, having questions which you should have asked yourself before asking me, try to answer them and come back to me with the original questions if you would still be interested in posing them :)

So for instance does the Ukrainian minority in Poland have a higher standard of living than their people in the Ukraine?

Does Polish minority in Germany have higher standards of living than Poles in Poland? Do Polish minority in Germany emigrate to the USA to put tiles in the washrooms like millions of Poles from Poland do?

I notice that there is an increasingly greater amount of Ukrainians looking for work in Poland

It is a chain and people always move where the prices are better. Poles move to the UK and Spain, Ukrainians - to Poland, Czech republic, Portugal; some other people to Ukraine; some other people to the countries which people left for Ukraine, which people left for Poland, which people left for the UK. If people find better to live in some other country, then there is an embassy of that country and one can apply for visa and go there, become a citizen, create a family and live there. If someone wants to live in his own country instead of going through the sh*t every immigrant in this freaking world goes through, then that person doesn't go to the foreign embassy. Simple as that. If you are so interested in raising your life standards and live in a country which tolerates people's sexuality and doesn't have Radio Mariya religious fanatics from the Middle Ages, then I would recommend becoming a part of Holland, great country with one of the highest life standards and long history of tolerance, as compared to Poland. Wouldn't you agree?

greater well being would be quite hard to refute.

Absolutely. Poland should make a vote on that one tomorrow.

if you choose not to answer the questions I will have the answers to my questions regardless.

I would like to hear them. Also, if you would be kind to answer mine along the way as they are in line with your original questions.

If he doesnt reply ill post some pictures for a nice shiny comparison, suffice to say an average ukrainian in ukraine lives like a bloody squatter.

Haha, you are more pathetic loser than I thought.

Wellbeing should be the deciding factor in this argument, I am a firm believer in the prosperity of all Poles and Ukrainians:)

Me too. I believe in prosperity of both. Ukraine will be celebrating its 19th anniversary of Independance on August 24th. A lot was gained during this short time, a lot was lost, but Ukraine moves forward. As regarding to Poles in Ukraine historically and the "high standards" they brought during the occupation, here is some statement from the 1st Ukrainian president and great historian of the beginning of 20th century M. Hrushevskyj:

The attitude of the Ukrainians of that time is well shown in the statements of Mykhailo Hrushevskyj, an early Ukrainian nationalists leader, who claimed that: "the four centuries of Polish rule had left particularly destructive effects (...) economic and cultural backwardness in Galicia was the main "legacy of historical Poland, which assiduously skimmed everything that could be considered the cream of the nation, leaving it in a state of oppression and helplessness".[6]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ukrainian_minority_in_Poland

So, thank you very much. Let's prosper as we did and if you really want some high standards of living, I hope Holland won't be totally against some chunk of Baltic seashore. Go ahead.

P.S. Ukraine has NO article "the" in front of Its name.
Nathan   
8 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Do you have anything else to say

What else can be said? Poles burnt Ukrainian churches in order to root out Ukrainian culture and nation as such. Settling Ukrainian territories with Polish militants, lands owned by Ukrainians, often resulting in leaving people with no place to live in. Schools and libraries were burnt or closed, universities made unaccessible for Ukrainians. Thousands of men and women were incarcerated for simply sticking to their parents' culture. Many died in horrible conditions in Polish concentration camps such as Bereza Kartuska before WWll and Jaworzno, for example, after the war. These crimes remain still unanswered by Polish government till today.
Nathan   
7 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Here is the article from the Times newspaper dated Oct. 24, 1938:

Polish Ukrainians complained that their Orthodox churches, some of them extremely ancient, were being systematically pulled down or turned into Roman Catholic churches.Of 350 which existed in 1918, all but 50 have vanished or changed hands, most of them during the past year. Both Orthodox and Uniat faithful, the Ukrainians declared, have been forced to adopt Roman Catholicism.

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,883791,00.html

From that moment on, the Churches of Ukraine and Russia went their own separate ways. The latter became central in the growing Russian Tsardom, attaining patriarchate in 1589, whilst the former became subject to repression and Polonization efforts, particularly after the Union of Brest in 1596. Eventually the persecution of Orthodox Ukrainians, led to a massive rebellion under Bohdan Khmelnytsky

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Orthodox_Church_of_the_Kyivan_Patriarchate

Danylo Halyckyj requested aid from Pope Innocent IV in the form of a crusade. In return for papal assistance, Danylo offered to place his lands under the ecclesiastical authority of Rome, a pledge never realized.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_of_Galicia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Lithuania#Languages

All these link I provided for you to see that the territories of modern Ukraine and Bielorus' were Orthodox since the time of Kievan Rus' and its christenizing in 988. As you might imagine there were hundreds of Orthodox churches before Russia even came to exist as a state or Polish state encroached on these territories. Uniates, not even Catholic, churches came to life from the Orthodox churches in 1596 and were based on those same Orthodox Christians who agreed to recognize the pope while keeping the Orthodox rite in their liturgical life. So, your claims that Russian tsar built churches in Volyn' and Poles destroyed those so-called "tsar churches" are preposterous.

It shouldn't be so hard to understand 'why', for someone who claims that Ukrainian atrocities stemmed from desire for revenge.

I have never said that there were Ukrainian atrocities caused by revenge. Desperation and resignation were the feelings of people whose lives were turned into nightmare by Poles and Polish government. Revenge is present when there is a hope. Those people had none.

Since you are particularly interested in Warsaw...

W stolicy Polski pozostały tylko dwie cerkwie prawosławne. Inne zwrócono przedrozbiorowym właścicielom (dotyczyło to zarekwirowanych przez carat świątyń katolickich), przekazano innym wyznaniom lub zburzono.

Only three Orthodox Churches remained in the capital. The rest was returned to Catholics and believers of other faiths or demolished.

Your text says "two", not "three" churches. But again you avoid my question of why these churches were left untouched and Russian Orthodox in the middle of Polish capital and Poles who were so eager to fight tsar and his policies went all the way to Volyn' and started destruction of Ukrainian churches there as a revindication? Hope this time you'll answer my question.

Not for long.

Not for long they remained in Hungarian possession either and now they are in Ukraine. I don't understand your argument of "no so long". This is the way I expect Sokrates to argue, not you. If "no so long" is enough for you, then why argue about Carpathian mountains now?

.I am posting it the second time. After the Czechoslovakia ceased to exist as Nazi, Polish and Hungarian armies attacked it from every side, Augustin Voloshyn, who was appointed

In October 1938, he was the head of the Subcarpathian Autonomous Region.

by still existing Czech government, not by himself, that very Voloshyn (a Ukrainian priest, by the way) tried to preserve independance of this land WHILE BEING SUPPORTED BY CZECH TROOPS WHICH KNEW ABOUT THE INDEPENDANCE BECAUSE IT WAS FREAKING DECLARED AND EVERYONE KNEW. But since Hitler refused its independance he and the CZECH army retreated unwilling to die against the overpowering force.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgustyn_Voloshyn

Are you playing with me?

Carpatho-Ukraine (Ukrainian: Карпатська Україна, Karpats'ka Ukrayina) was an autonomous region within Czechoslovakia from late 1938 to March 15, 1939. It declared itself an independent Ukrainian republic on March 15, 1939, but was occupied by Hungary between March 15 and March 18, 1939, remaining under Hungarian control until the Nazi occupation of Hungary in 1944.

So, why Czechs attacked Hungarians and not Voloshyn? Why there was no response on their part, but immediate attack on Hungarians? How can you say how popular or unpopular were the policy of the country if it existed only a few days or even hours?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpatho-Ukraine
Nathan   
5 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

1) According to Maciej Mróz's „Katolicyzm na pograniczu. Kościół katolicki wobec kwestii ukraińskiej i białoruskiej w Polsce w latach 1918-1925” out of 3 100 Orthodox churches Catholics demanded restitution of 880 post-Catholic temples, including 240 Roman Catholic and 640 Unite Catholic.

From the same "source" you took your info from. So, if you demanded for Uniate (Ukrainian) churches to be returned (almost 3 times as much taken by Orthodox as Polish), why did you burn churches of Orthodox Ukrainians. This just escapes my logic. Isn't this the issue to be decided between Ukrainians themselves. Or Poles had some other intention in mind with the would-be recovered churches? Since churches were taken by Russians, then why do you destroy even stolen but Ukrainian property? Be kind to explain.
Nathan   
5 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

an independent and unified Ukrainian state that would include Polish, Soviet, Romanian, and Czechoslovak territories.

These territories were occupied by the above-mentioned countries. You are talking about Sub-Carpathian Ukraine. Here is the info on the territories which seem to bother you:

Slavic tribes began settling in the area of Transcarpathia in the 6th century, following the invasion of the Huns. By the 7th and 8th centuries, a denser population referred to as the White Croats had settled on the slopes of the Carpathian Mountains. A great deal of this territory and its settlers subsequently became the western edge of Rus' principality at the start of the 9th century, while the western part of this territory (of the today's Eastern Slovakia)[which?] came under the jurisdiction of Great Moravia.

Prior to this, in July 1918, Rusyn immigrants in the United States had convened and called for complete independence. Failing that, they would try to unite with Galicia and Bukovyna; and failing that, they would demand autonomy, though they did not specify under which state. They approached the American government and were told that the only viable option was unification with Czechoslovakia.

Under the unfavorable circumstances, having no army or other ways of influencing political decisions, Rusyns voted for the best available option - Czechoslovakia.

In November 1938, under the First Vienna Award — which was a result of the Munich Agreement — Czechoslovakia, and later Slovakia, were forced by Germany and Italy to cede the southern third of Slovakia and southern Carpathian Rus to Hungary. The remainder of Carpathian Rus received autonomy, with Avhustyn Voloshyn as the prime minister of the autonomous government.

Nothing strange here. Ukraine gained nothing from the Munich agreement, in which it didn't participate.

'Greater Ukraine'?

Of course, Greater - in other words - United. What unusual in a nation coming under one wing.

The pro-Ukrainian government that was formed in autonomous Subcarpathian Rus' on October 26, 1938, under the leadership of Avhustyn Voloshyn, came into being on instructions from Nazi German authorities in Berlin.

During the total destruction of Czechoslovakia by Hitler's Germany, he tried to preserve Carpatho-Ukraine independence and became president of Carpatho-Ukraine for a few hours (March 15, 1939) with the help of the rest of the Czechoslovakian army. On March 19, 1939, Voloshyn under the protection of last Czechoslovakian troops retreated to the Romanian Kingdom's border, which was Czechoslovakia's ally. Subcarpathia was occupied by Hungary.

I think if Ukrainians wanted a part of Czechoslovakia proper, they wouldn't be guarded by Czechoslovakian troops. Also if Voloshyn was appointed by German directive in 1938, he wouldn't risk his post by siding with the retreating Czech troops, moreover, already knowing about the decision of the Munich agreement a year earlier. I think you should ask Hungarians, eternal brothers of yours, about why they invaded Czechoslovakia and Sub-Carpathian region.

Such attitudes resulted in the so-called revindication campaigns.

You still haven't explained the huge Russian Orthodox church you have in Warsaw while burning hundreds of Ukrainian churches in Western Ukraine if you indeed were revindicating. If you saw policy of russification in Orthodox churches wouldn't it be more logic to start with Russian if that was your real intention, in which I have hard time to believe.

There were only 60% Ukrainians in Ukrainian West Republic. Double standards? Medieval Kievan Rus territory?

I think all of those + Jewish minority also supported Ukrainian state, sometimes being simply neutral.

How do you know those are Ukrainian/not Polish families? Sources?

I haven't posted the pictures. When someone does, there have to be proof of what I am looking at, not meer pictures of murdered people. They could have been in any country and killed by anyone. How do I know?
Nathan   
5 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=164006&start=15

Hodyvantsi, Tomashivskogo County, the priest was convicted for conducting the massesand was punished by 3 months of arrest and monetary penalty. Novosilky preist received 1 month of arrest and monetary penalty.

Farmer from village. Hodyvantsi, who had 75 years of age, sentenced to monetary penalty and seizure for the fact [b]that he used his house for secret prayer meetings
. Ten women from Hmilka parish stayed several months in prison in Biłgoraj for resistance during the closing"house of prayer" in Hmilku.[/quote]
Second Polish republic was nothing less than a bunch of barbaric lowlifes who knew nothing of religious or national tolerance. A priest in Polish mass was yelling to his parishioners: "Don't sell milk to Jews and Ukrainians". I mean how pathetic this "priest" was.
Nathan   
5 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Is that the best you can do? Now explain how come with your precious independence, you are still looking up to Mother Russia for guidance?

Any source? Or you again try to post looking at your derriere? Why not look up what you mean so it is easier to discuss the issue.

The fact is Poland inherited the lands in medieval times via legitimate dynastic process

Interesting ;) Where are the royals to demand? I bet Ukrainian court will be happy to listen to their claims. Just call your king and let him know that he is free to try.

just like Jews resigned all rights to Israel leaving it over a 1000 years ago

Was there an amendment made in Polish fantasy constitution which prevents Jews from getting back their lands?

It was refuted plenty already.

Where? All I heard from you was ungrounded statements, unsupported by any source.
Nathan   
5 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which in seventeenth century had helped sustain Ukraine's identity during its confrontation with the Poles, had become by the eighteen century a vehicle of Russification.

And Polish church became a vehicle of Polonization. So, what are we arguing here about? Both were involved in destroying churches, making sure that the people lose their identity, language, culture.

In 1794, immediately following the second partition that gave Russia its largest share of Commonwealth territory, the empress began an aggressive crusade to convert the Uniates of the newly annexed territories to Russian Orthodoxy.

Thanks for mentioning this. It was simply disgusting. I feel pain for all these people who had to go through this Polish and Russian BS through centuries, being forced into Catholicism (Uniate Church) or Russian Orthodoxy in one time or the other.

exterminate Jews.

Poland was the only country in the world involved in post WWll Jewish pogroms and murder. Kielce 1946 is a horrible witness of that.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

The same place where 28 years earlier, in 1918 Poles did the following:

When Poland was becoming independent and Austrian troops were evacuated from Kielce, the city authorities allowed local Jews to hold a meeting at Polish Theatre, to discuss the issue of Jewish political and cultural autonomy in Poland. As the meeting went on, a crowd of Polish civilians gathered outside the theatre. Later, the crowd and some soldiers entered the theatre, came into the auditorium and begun driving the Jews towards the stairs, where a double line of men armed with clubs and bayonets was beating the Jews as they were leaving the building. Outside the theatre the Jews were beaten by the mob again. Jewish homes and shops were also attacked. During the pogrom four Jews were killed and more than 230 wounded[1]

ukrainians never tasted wealth or civilised lifestyle like Poles

Immediately after capturing the city, in the end of November, Polish forces as well as common criminals looted the Jewish and Ukrainian quarters of the city.[8][9] The Poles also interned a number of Ukrainian activists in detention camps.[10]

Poles indeed "tasted" wealth.

peasantry which made up 90% of ukrainian population supported the reds ie the Bolscheviks.

Ukrainians had little support for Bolsheviks, because even the poorest one had a cow and a parcel of field to grow food on for his own family. Bolsheviks forcefully removed whatever people had accompanied by army or execution squadrons. Communism was never part of Ukrainian mentality as ownership was always cherished and work respected. Here is a source on what bolsheviks started in 1928-29 with hard-working people:

In 1929 Stalin introduced a policy for the liquidation of Ukrainian kulaks as a class and the policy was legalized by the Soviet Central Committee in 1930. Anyone with a Ukrainian national consciousness was branded an "enemy of the State" by Stalin's regime. This initial campaign was geared towardkulaks who resisted turning over their private farmland to the Soviet collective. Those kulaks were dealt with through massive arrests and deportations to forced labor camps, often to the concentration camps in Siberia. Those who weren't arrested or deported were subject to the brutal terror of Stalin's police and oftentimes [...]

ukrainiangenocide.com/dkeyfigures.html

This is not a support of Bolshevism. If there were those who supported it in the late 1910s, the reason was being a hope to start something new, picturesque as communists were presenting it; but again, only landless and hopeless could have been seduced by this, not the owners of even a small lot of land. The village where my father is from, the most hidden and almost unknown, had always majority of its inhabitants with land and livestock.
Nathan   
4 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Quite right: Poland signed a treaty committing itself to the existence of a Ukrainian state and then when the Ukrainians were no longer needed, Poland sold that state to the USSR.

Exactly. It is nothing of surprise, though. Poland signed an agreement with Czechoslovakia in 1925 too, which it betrayed in 1938 by invading this country.

you piece of a blotting paper.

Again posting your derriere thoughts in here? Stop it, please. Say something intelligent for a change.

their successful offensive halted primarily because of a lack of arms - there were only 5-10 bullets for each Ukrainian soldier

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Ukrainian_War

So, it definitely mattered as you feared to fight yourself and had to send well-equipped French army. Also lying about bolshevism and Ukrainians to get to use the French looks so low and unhonorable. Again, this is nothing new to Poland.
Nathan   
4 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Maybe they wanted to be part of an independent Ukraine? An independent Ukraine including the Ukrainian territories occupied by Poland?

M-G, you understand the issue much better than people who study the history about this issue since early childhood. They are not able to draw simple conclusions by the mere way of putting oneself in the mentioned historical circumstances. Only Poles can be willing to be independent from invaders, others have to choose between bad Russians and sweet like sugar Poles. Ukrainians, in Polish highest IQ minds in Europe, were acting irrationally.

Because of the original post or the changes Iron made to it when quoting it?

Mostly the changes by Iron, but also the way you put it that Polish sarcasm radar failed to pick up the signal. No surprise, but still :)
Nathan   
4 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

I know it's hard to imagine....

Well, M-G I wouldn't expect it from you. I cannot say that I agree with all of it but it is impressive.

M-G, because of you, I have to wash my underware. Thanks, though :))

history give me a pain in my cute derriere

If you don't like history why don't you go and look more on your derriere instead of drawing your comments from it and wasting PF's space.
Nathan   
4 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Don't worry Poles will do some ethic cleansing

You should do self-cleansing, that's for sure.

How destroying and burning Ukrainian churches equals so-called "restoration" of Polish Catholicism in Ukraine?

Uniates - the majority of Ukrainians, and more nationalistic (due to Austrian rule) than Ukrainian Orthodox believers, were not targeted.

Uniates have never made majority in Ukraine. Why do you make stuff up? Uniates more nationalistic? Read more of Ukrainian history and you will realize that the main national spirit of Ukraine was upheld by Orthodox believers, not Catholics. Ukrainians who fought Poles and Russians in 16th, 17th and 18th centuries were overwhelmingly Orthodox.

Sketches from a Secret War: A Polish Artist's Mission to Liberate Soviet Ukraine, Timothy Snyder, 2007

Wow, quite a title and again Timothy Snyder ;)

If Orthodox believers were outraged by 'revindication' campaign, then Catholics must have been infuriated when their churches were destroyed, or changed into Orthodox temples.

How is it connected to burning Ukrainian Orthodox churches which existed in Volyn, Chelm and L'viv region for centuries? Why do you show pictures of UNBURNED RUSSIAN CHURCH IN THE MIDDLE OF FREAKING CAPITAL OF YOURS and give this as an example of your REVINDICATION on RUSSIAN policy while you burnt UKRAINIAN CHURCHES in HUNDREDS all over western regions of Ukraine? Why didn't you burn this one then??? Ha???

Roman Catholic church (St Joseph Chuch) being demolished by the order of tsarist authorities in Vilnius, 1877.

Again Russian tsar policy and it was in Vilnius (Lithuania), not Poland.

There you had 150 years of Polonization and Latinization, which included similar policies you did during 1920s and 1930s. If you managed to burn over 210 Ukrainian churches, burn libraries, close schools and expel Ukrainian profs from every university in your reach within 19 years, guess what you did in 150 years in 16-17th centuries. Ukraine before 16th century was almost exclusively orthodox, with universities and schools and churches which had lectures about Orthodox faith, not Catholic. Everything started to change after Brest 1596.

The Ukrainian Catholic Church did not exist, as such, until the Union of Brest in the late 16th century.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Greek_Catholic_Church

In order to survive and get a better job people at those time accepted Uniate faith as it still contain the same Orthodox rite, only recognition of pope was new. But who cared about a dude in Rome as long as you may pray in your own language.

The converts were not firm adherents of Orthodoxy...

I mean what kind of statement is that? ;) Did they measure faith at that time by some electronic devices?

Józefski and his collaborators worked to ukranize the Orthodox Church

Wow, that Snyder is something! ;) So, basically Poles did everything even ukrainize Ukrainians. That's phenomenal.

At the time of the first partition of Poland in 1772, there were some 4.7 million Uniates in the Polish-Lithuanian state and barely 400000 Orthodox believers.

As of 2008, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is estimated to have 4,284,082 faithful
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Greek_Catholic_Church

Looks strange, doesn't it? After 230 years? Polish sources and Tymothy Snyder are famous for blowing everything up out of proportions to prove their "point".

They are called this way in many publications, or 'Ukrainian Greek Catholics'. Is that wrong?

It is anachronism still in use. I hope this out of place word will be replaced.
Nathan   
3 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Sokrates is a tongue-flapping prodigy; he is working on Masters in Oral Arts at night somewhere on Bzdiszczyn's red lights street. Lots of promises from this young talent.

Also the disney like drawings are because the pictures were considered far too drastic for the casual reader

;) Fantasy land of yours...nothing changes. Are you also into drawing? Amazing.

250.000 Poles

Where did you suck these numbers, Socki? Some source?

Jews had it easy MG, yeah i know i shouldnt say that but they did, they went from the cattle train to the gas chamber where a painfull 10 minute death awaited them.

Pigs like you have easy right now jabbering online about what Jews went through. 10 minutes? I knew you are dumb, but not to that point. And all the atrocities and 350 ways of killing fantasy of yours is pure BS as everything you say. You imagine numbers - 250,000???? ;) maybe, a million? no? , tortures perpetrated by NKWD or Soviet armies made to look like UPA by communist regime which reigned for 50 years after and which is known with its falsification of facts, or even pictures of Ukrainian families, presented as Polish, murdered by who knows whom in what was going in Ukraine at that time. Where is your proof of who did murder these people? None.

cutting of breasts of women and salting the wounds for example was frequent.

Ukraine was attacked by Soviets, Nazis, Poles who had no intent of letting people live on their lands. Ukrainian regular insurgents which made 40,000 self-trained soldiers and lots of people who supported them had barely what to fight with. Food was in shortage, guns where stolen from killing occupying forces and there was no time for wasting salt on somebody's wounds, cutting breasts, making 350 Polish imagined tortures if you wanted to see your country free. During Second Polish republic in prisons where Poles had enough time to waste, these practices were extensively used on any representative of national minority, be it a Jew, a Bielorusin, a Ukrainian or a Lithuanian.

Ukrainians didn't wanted compromise but all and more, so they got nothing.

With Poles we made so many compromises in history that this is simply ridiculous. But in every one of them, you betrayed the agreement. And if you don't believe me, just ask Czechs or Lithuanians, they had the same experience with you. This is why you are angels and every one else are bad and injust to these pure-white polish goląbki.

iron is boring

Ironing too ;)
Nathan   
3 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

cultural discrimination

Thank you so much, Aphrodisiac, for the info. It was horrible. To destroy churches, places around which revolves Ukrainian tradition and culture en masse: more than 210 churches were destroyed by Poles, as much closed or converted into Catholic churches. All done in 1930s to "fight" Ukrainian nationalism. And now they are asking to give them Ukrainian organ hall to run their masses. ;)

You want to pray so much? Make an effort to rebuild what you destroyed first better, "believers".
Nathan   
1 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

care to comment Nathan?

As soon as you have read my post # 83, recognize yourself an ignorant tongue-flapper. Then I would readily waste my time to talk to someone like you who would make easily millions in oral arts.
Nathan   
1 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

I remember reading a section there from a guy who was neutral on Ukrainians.

Seanus, what are you talking about?!
I am still patiently waiting on UPA explanation mentioned in my previous post. I don't think you are like Sokrates - the Polish tongue-flapper.

What happened, happened. Governments can acknowledge it and move on.

What acknowledge? This topic is about Poland and its policy in 1930s. I don't ask anyone about apology. When there is topic about Ukrainian insurgents and Polish whining I haven't yet read your post saying: oh, it is past, let's move on. Or why are there so many WWII posts and you say nothing about moving on and forgetting the topic altogether? Let's talk about Lindsay Lohan. Is she still in prison?
Nathan   
1 Aug 2010
History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Ok, now give me a single source about UPA's brutality in Warsaw. Please, be kind not to avoid the answer like other tongue-flappers. Aphrodisiac tries to show a part of Polish history. What do you mean by history is not present. Majority of things discussed are in the past.

OK, that's fine. Do you want anybody to be held accountable for that crime?

This is a discussion of Polish policy in 1930s. When you discuss Napoleon, do you expect accountability from the French? It is part of your history and Polish state burnt hundreds of Ukrainian churches in 30s. Now Polish community jumps like pathetic bunch demanding return of churches. Rebuild what you destroyed, then raise demands.

Ok while on topic of churches, Ukrainians just recently turned a catholic church in Lwów into a philharmonie.

In 1923 the monastery building was given to the Lviv Polytechnic and in 1927 conservation work was carried out in the complex which continued until the outbreak of World War II, among them the installation of organ produced by the Czech Brothers Rieger workshop.

Under soviet rule the church remained open longer than most others in Lviv until it was closed in 1962. Most of the interior was plundered or destroyed, including the side altars, sculptures and ambo, only the organ and altar have survived today. In 1969 the church building was assigned to the Lviv Philharmony which established an organ concert hall in it.

With the collapse of the soviet union the parish was officially reestablished in 1991 however the church has not been returned yet and at the moment remains the property of the state from which the faithful have to rent it to attend the Holy Mass.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_St._Mary_Magdalene,_Lviv

So, Poles may easily rent the church for religious purposes. I bet Ukrainians cannot rent hundreds of burnt by Poles churches. Should we demand from Poland now reconstructing all the churches you destroyed? So we can at least rent?

Whereas in Poland we get arts, sciences, cinematography, customs, architecture and many more, you just proved my point there is no culture flourishing in Ukraine.

I know that for an ignoramus like you names like Oleksander Dovzhenko, S. Paradjanov, Y. Illienko (incredible producer,director and political activist, died last month, rest in peace) won't mean anything, but they went into history not only Ukrainian, but the world's cinematography.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_Ukraine

During the recent years, a new generation of moviemakers arrived. In 2001, the starting art director Taras Tomenko triumphed in the Panorama competition at the Berlin International Film Festival, while in 2003, at the main completion in Berlin the Silver Bear prize was awarded to the film Tram Route #9 by the Ukrainian animator Stepan Koval. Oles Sanin represented Ukraine for Oscar Academy Award in 2003 with his film Mamay.

myukraine.info/en/culture/art/Films/

In 1922 the all-Ukrainian Photo and Cinema Administration, a flexible enough structure, was founded that managed to reconstruct production in Odesa and Yalta, and, in 1928, to put into operation a movie studio in Kyiv, one of the largest in the world at that time, that later became the Olexandr Dovzhenko Kyiv Movie Studio

The Dovzhenko's films Zvenihora, 1928, Arsenal, 1929, and Zemlya, 1930!!! (A chef-d'oeuvre of the world's cinematography), played a special role in the making of the Ukrainian cinematography. His artistic efforts raised this country's film industry to the world level. In 1958, at the World Fair in Brussels (Belgium) the poll conducted among the outstanding 117 movie critics and cinematologist from 26 countries of the world named the latter film among the twelve best films of 'all the times and nations'.

One of my best Ukrainian actors Ivan Mykolaychuk received a Grand Prix for his "Babylon XX" movie. He died at age of 47 and played in more than 30 Ukrainian movies

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mykolaychuk

Roman Viktyuk - a world-renowned Ukrainian producer (btw, born in L'viv - yey!).

Regalia
. People's Artist of Ukraine (2006), Honored Artist of Russia. Professor of the Academy of Performing Arts GITIS.
The only director of foreign origin was awarded the International Prize of the Institute of Italian drama of the best embodiment of the Modern Drama (1997). Winner of the Theater Award "Maratea" Center for European Drama (1991). Received the "Kyiv Pectoral" and the award of the Union of Ukrainian theater "Triumph".In the United States included in the category of "50 people in the world that shaped the second half of the twentieth century."

So, there is plenty to learn about Ukrainian cinematography, than flap with your tongue like so pathetically. It is not a bait as you put it. It just shows that morons are abundant.

It's a tragic irony that we are discussing churches here ;)

Read the title of the topic again, please. It is not about naked women some of us are interested in discussing.

Destroying Churches is one of the most drastic steps that can be taken in humiliating another ppl. The next step is disqualifying them as human and the step thereafter is genocide.

In Ukraine, especially at that time it was taking away humanity, because religion was an unalienable part of everyday life, be it physical or spiritual. Traditions, customs, songs, morals were and are in majority based on one's believes. It was part of who you are. And this is not exaggeration. To burn churches, to kick the kids out of schools, to burn libraries, to close universities had only this intention, MG, as you said, to take away humanity.

I am in a search of more sources about this action against Ukrainian churches in 1930s, does anybody have any?. I would like to read up on it more.

Here are some, Aphro; I'll try to look for more.

history-ukraine.livejournal.com/16725.html
nadbuhom.free.ngo.pl/art_1544.html
Nathan   
26 Jul 2010
Love / WILDROVERS FIVE YEARS IN POLAND....come to an end...! [132]

No tears please...its for the best really....

Remember I told you to drown her in the Dnieper and you didn't listen ;) Now you are moving on, all happy, leaving everyone behind like nothing happened. How rude of you, Wildy ;)

I wish you and your girlfriend all the best, lots of love and luck. Most important - be happy, pal :)
Nathan   
21 Jul 2010
History / Chances of Moscow becoming part of Poland again? [102]

Great point, bbanjo69. And I don't believe a second that russia will ever be a normal European state that practices democratic principles. They will always live in the tzar-demanding mentality, which is able to survive on wars and fear since they were not and won't ever be able to compete with the rest of Europe based on the same rules, be it in business or simply in an everyday social life. Guess why russia is in G8 - economy? ;)

russians may not care about their slaughtered millions.

Of course, none of us will; we will always remember those who paid for our freedom by their lives; that's why Europe and other democracies should be cherished like a pupil of the eye for letting people think, be independent and know the truth.
Nathan   
18 Jul 2010
History / Chances of Moscow becoming part of Poland again? [102]

You are right, Sicko ;)

There are few chances left, as CEE don't have any ambitions what so ever over going into an adventure in the coldest places on earth which had a lot of visitors through ages :)

The visitors from a bit further removed lands (France or Germany) always made their visits at the wrong time of the year. You have to be there in summer, not for Christmas :)

Battle of Klushino 1610 occurred on July the 4th - nice victory for Poland.
In 1618 Petro Sahaidachny's campaign against the Muscovy resulted in sacking numerous forts such as Putivl, Kursk, Yelets, and others. Together with Chodkiewicz he laid the siege to Moscow in September of 1618. These battles all occurred when the sun was shining :) Russians don't like that - you can only drink water then ;) No spirit for battle ;)

Coldest places on Earth? Come on. There are already fights for the shelf and its covered resources in the Arctic ocean. These places are warming up and become suitable for living.
Nathan   
16 Jul 2010
History / Chances of Moscow becoming part of Poland again? [102]

Good idea Nathan.

I know.

;) You, probably, missed my point. "Drang nach Ural" foreign policy is not interested in your language or believes. It is something that you should concern yourself with. You should think where to resettle, not what language I will be studying :) Conditions for you will be to disappear and better sooner than later or become a part of the new settlement. Personally, I prefer the first.
Nathan   
16 Jul 2010
History / Chances of Moscow becoming part of Poland again? [102]

How about sending all the Muslims from Europe all the way to Moscow?

Anyone willing to start a new life in a new environment (a bit harsh, but not that bad) should be encouraged to settle in the regained wastelands of Russia. China, India, Mexico which population are increasing, have to expand somehow, otherwise they will explode. Currently North America is the primary shock-absorber of growing populations from these countries. But how long will it last? 15-20 years? And then? 1/9th of the Earth lands lies practically unpopulated. These lands have to be used to protect viability of our overpopulated states.

I did not say that, Nathan did in his opening thread.

He doesn't dare to talk directly to me :)

I think it's easier for Moscow to reclaim Poland the way things are going.

In her dreams, maybe.