History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :) [496]


That's the problem we have in Israel's democracy. Politicians work to please their parties rather than the voters. So the citizen's influence is very indirect. So disregard my comment about democracies. I still stand by my comment about individual responsibility. The point is that when people start blaming an invisible hand for their troubles or their sins it's usually an excuse.

History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :) [496]


Sounds like a way of evading responsibility. The man on the street may not be responsible for the situation of the world but he is responsible for his own behavior. In a democracy he's also responsible for choosing the "guy in the corner".

History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :) [496]

Oh. Well, that clears it up.

History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :) [496]


Is that a Polish expression? Why don't you explain it.

History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :) [496]


It's discussed as a polish phenomenon here because this is a Polish forum. Also because everything that happened in the holocaust is magnified in Poland since that's where the most Jews lived and died. There's no question that the other nations you mentioned were notorious in betraying Jews to the Nazis and that French and Dutch participated in rounding up their Jews and that Ukrainians and Baltics took part in the slaughter. But this discussion is about Poland. If I would be on a Lithuanian forum I'd give them hell, but then what's more boring than a Lithuanian forum.

History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :) [496]


Jews were shipped out of towns to be killed and their property was taken over by Polish squatters. The few survivors who came back to claim it after the war were driven away. Which is the part you don't understand?


Nobody says the government of Poland is responsible for Jedwabne. What people say is that Poles massacred Jews, because that apparently is what happened there. Whether that means Poles are anti-semites is for you Poles to discuss among yourselves. I don't care.


No. I use words like "often" when I don't have statistics. This isn't a court of law, so I don't don't need to bring numbers. My point is still valid, that the shocking thing is NOT the squatters in former Jewish property but the murders. I'm not talking about pogroms, which may have been isolated incidents, but murders of individual Jewish returnees. How many murders were there? Enough to be a phenomenon and not a freak incident.

History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :) [496]

vetala


I see. I didn't see the original quote on that website till now. But after reading what he wrote, what's the most horrible thing is not that people moved into his house (let's assume they thought the owners were dead), but that jews returning to their town were murdered by their former neighbors. And it's known that this happened in quite a few places. Is it any wonder that Jews who left Poland after the war are bitter about their former neighbors?

History / Have Poles blood on their hands? :) [496]


Couldn't be too many because, as you know, the vast majority of Jews in Poland did not live in the Prussian areas but in the Russian and Austrian areas. Your point about Poles being denied ownership of houses by the Prussians might be true, I have no idea. But to suggest, based on a situation in pre-WW1 Prussia, that Jews in central and eastern poland really didn't lose legitimate property in the holocaust is a ridiculous argument. I wouldn't have expected a comment like that from you.

Food / Why carp for Polish Christmas? [157]

This looks familiar, although our horseradish looks a bit different, less green. When I make it by hand (once a year on Pesach) i add salt, sugar and vinegar. Otherwise it comes in the store, dark red/purple because they mix it with beets.

Food / Why carp for Polish Christmas? [157]

The important question is this: Is your chrain dark red with beets or is it white?

Food / Why carp for Polish Christmas? [157]


It doesn't have the sound of Hebrew or Yiddish, so we probably took it from you.
Thanks.

And I hope you all had a nice Christmas.

Food / Why carp for Polish Christmas? [157]


It is, but that picture looks a lot different than what this Jew eats. The carp we eat is boiled and has sugar and pepper added. It takes a long time to eat because you have to avoid choking on sharp bones, but it tastes good. I add some horseradish, which we call "chrain". We have another kind of carp in Israel that's called oriental fish and its baked with tomato sauce, onions, pepper and other spices. I prefer that. I remember my grandmother having carp swimming in a pail in the kitchen.

News / The "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign theft from Oswiecim, Poland [240]


Please translate the cartoon.

News / The "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign theft from Oswiecim, Poland [240]


A bit of overstatement, no question. But you should know that there's a habit among Israeli politicians, even when criticizing eachother, to use strong language and overstate their point. It's a style of talking which annoys me, but since I'm used to it I know how to interpret it. Don't go quoting every statement by every Israeli and make too much out of it. It's not Moses talking from Sinai. It's just a guy commenting for some TV reporter.

In any case, if this is the worst failure of the Polish Police then you have a pretty good police force.

News / The "Arbeit Macht Frei" sign theft from Oswiecim, Poland [240]

I think everyone, including my government and the honorable members of this forum, should wait and see what exactly happened before making statements and accusations. What's interesting is how an incident like this arouses so much comment and how the comments are all so predictable.

History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]


What's the relevance of your point? Why Israeli traders? Why not say that Italy wouldn't take in Polish immigrants because they would compete with Italian traders?


You're right that we wanted to maintain the demographic edge over the arabs. Makes sense doesn't it? I don't want to be outnumbered by people who deny my right to a country. But it's also altruistic because Russian Jews wanted to come here. No one forced them to. The only thing i agree on partially is that not all of them are Jews. I would prefer they limited it to Jews and immediate family members. But now that they're here, I welcome them.

History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]


Never miss an opportunity to say something untrue about Israel, do you.
Let's see if you're right... You say the UK took in 800,000 into a population of 60 million. That's only 1.3%. I'm not impressed.

Would Israeli Jews do that?
Just in the 1990s we took in 956,000 immigrants into a population of about 5.5 million. That means we took in the equivalent of around 18% of our population. So, yes, I can see Israeli Jews doing that.

History / What British unit liberated Poland in 1945?? [445]


It's not exactly the same. In the US there is no core ethnic group (not since the end of the 18th century at least). It's a country founded on a political belief and not on ethnicity. It's not a nation state. So in theory no ethnic group in the US is more "American" than another. But in nation states, like Poland, Israel or Spain, for example, there is a difference between the core ethnic group and minority groups. The minorities have citizenship and political rights as individuals but the core ethnic group dominates the culture, public life and politics of the nation. So if I was born in Poland and had Polish citizenship (like my grandfather, say) I would not be as "Polish" as my ethnic Pole neighbors, even if I could talk the talk and walk the walk.

History / What British unit liberated Poland in 1945?? [445]


That's because we didn't kick out most of the Arabs who were here when the state became independent. I don't think that should count against us. But the state was created by Jews to be the politically independent homeland of the Jewish nation. It's main language is Hebrew and it's holidays and public life reflect Jewish history, culture and values (although not as much as I'd like it to.)


No. He thinks that only ethnic Poles are ethnic Poles (a self-evident statement). He never said that ethnic Jews, Germans, Tatars or Ruthenians that are of Poland are not to be considered Polish nationals.

I don't know where you come from, but not all countries are like the US or Canada, where there is no core national ethnicity and where citizenship is determined only by where you were born. Many other countries define themselves by ethnicity but also recognize citizenship of minority ethnic groups that are native to the country. That's why there are two different words in the English language – nationality and ethnicity. An Arab citizen of Israel, for example, has Israeli nationality and Arab ethnicity.

History / What British unit liberated Poland in 1945?? [445]


I resent that ignorant comment. The nation is Israel and yes, it issues passports. I have no problem with calling it "Jewland" either. Of course in the period you are discussing there was no Israel, and even when it was established, not every Jew around the world became a citizen of Israel, just like not every ethnic Chinese is a citizen of China.

Harry, Polish Jews were a clearly defined ethnic group that were Polish nationals but not ethnic Poles. Nothing to do with bigotry – it's just historic fact.

That has no bearing on Torq's point on whether Poles are to blame for Poland being communist. It seems clear to me that most communists in post-war Poland were ethnic Poles and many were ethnic Jews. There seems to be a tendency to minimize the role of ethnic Poles because it isn't something Poles are proud of. But like Vichy France, where French people collaborated with the Germans, many ethnic Poles must have collaborated with the Soviets or the regime would not have lasted so long. The fact is that when ethnic Poles stopped cooperating, the communist regime fell. So I respectfully disagree with Torq's point, but to attack him as a bigot because he recognizes there is such a thing as Jewish ethnicity is absurd.

(Your style in general is really nasty. If you can't stand Poles, why do you live in Poland?)

Genealogy / Looking for a Polish Jew "Nina" saved in the war [10]

Good luck!

I just listened for your radio show, but it was apparently preempted by live coverage of the Nobel prize for chemistry that's being awarded to an israeli scientist. I think you should send them an email asking when the show will be on.

News / Crucifixes to stay in Polish schools [364]


Thanks for the reply. I don't question the authenticity of your experience. But I think your understanding of it is based on your christian upbringing. If you were brought up as a Jew and you would experience this, you would assume that you felt the spirit of G-d Himself.

I hope you continue to experience thing like this, but I just wish you would channel it to good purpose like creating more love between people and not increasing hatred of Jews. You say you respect Torah-observant Jews, yet you have nothing but nasty things to say about Israelis, even though many of us do observe the Torah.

On the topic at hand: The issue of religion in Poland, now a catholic country, is very different than in the US, where the government is not supposed to be involved in religion. America, with the separation of church and state, is a much more religious country than most European countries. So the system is not hurting christians in america.

News / Crucifixes to stay in Polish schools [364]


This may not be the place for this comment, but I give it a go:
You equate jesus and god. How did christianity ever get to that conclusion? As I understand it, the first christians believed that Jesus was the Messiah, the anointed one. Then he was referred to as the son of god. What was probably a figurative concept then became taken literally and christians thought that G-d actually fathered a son somehow (an idea the first jewish christians could not possibly have accepted). Then at some point christians began equating Jesus and god, as you do here. You say that jesus is god. How can a person believe in the old testament and believe that jesus, a person, is god?

Since this is a forum about poland, feel free to ignore this post. I just wanted to share my thoughts.

History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]


Maybe her family was killed in Sobibor. It doesn't say where her Jewish family was originally from.


He says that there is a "broad dislike of Jews" in Poland. I don't see the difference. Do you think he's right?

But the current Polish attitude toward Jews isn't what most people talk about when they say "Polish antisemitism". They are usually thinking about prewar Poland. I get the impression that Polish emigrants in the US are stuck with the attitude of their grandparents about Jews, while in Poland itself things have evolved. (Judging by this forum, there is more anti-Jewish stuff coming from American-Poles than Polish-Poles.) It can also probably be said that Jews tend to think about Poles the way their grandparents thought about them. Our attitudes are frozen in time. We shouldn't confuse what was with what is.

News / Crucifixes to stay in Polish schools [364]


In this one point I can finally agree with cheehaw.

History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]

Your quote is irrelevant to the Israel-Arab conflict. This person is an American Jew writing about the theological implication of "chosenness". As he points out, Christians and Muslims also say they are chosen. He's discussing how this concept affects our relations with other religions and how different streams of judaism relate to the concept. All very interesting but it has nothing to do with the country of Israel. We are a country, just like Poland or New Zealand. When we are attacked we fight back. It's got nothing to do with religious doctrine. Where do you find Israelis "talking non-stop about being the Chosen Ones"? We don't. And the fact that you think we do just proves that you can't get away from your preconceived image of Israelis.

History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]


Since when do we talk non-stop about being Chosen Ones? Give me a quote of any Israeli leader using that argument.


We are the natives. And we didn't take all the land. The palestinians have Jordan, most of the west bank and Gaza. Many of them also live as Israeli citizens in Israel proper.


No. The Native Americans got decimated till the few that were left were shoved into reservations. The palestinians have increased in population, they have 2 and a half countries, and they are part of an ethnic group that rules from Morocco to Iraq. That's a lot better than being a Native American.

History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]


Till now, that has only been a rumour. I'm glad you cleared that up.

History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]


I will repeat for the thousandth time:
Innocent palestinian mothers and kids did nothing to deserve being massacred. It was their brothers, fathers and friends who launched rockets and mortars from their rooftops and booby-trapped their houses and streets that caused their deaths. The Israeli army does what it can to minimize civilian deaths, but in urban combat it is impossible to prevent it. This is something Hamas and the innocent people who voted them into power should have thought of while they were lobbing rockets into civilian targets in Israel.

History / Polish hatred towards Jews... [1290]


I personally didn't bomb it. Of that i am sure.
What do you think, that every Israeli is privy to secret military information? I know as much as you do.


I don't think anyone here would say it's not justified, but the question is if it's doable and what the results would be strategically and politically. So I would leave it up to the experts. What is clear is that the US and Europe will not be able to stop Iran through diplomacy and they won't even try a military option. So either we do it or no one does.