Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]

Look, isn't it obvious that if it is strongly promoted in the US, then it must be making someone some money? Baby foreskins for face cream. That is a new one on me. I will appreciate my costly Chanel cream even more now ...

And another point: doesn't it ABSOLUTELY follow that any guy who is circumcised is going to say that's the best thing to do? But I have to say ... how would he know, if he's never had his own foreskin? (well, only for a short while, before it went in the Nivea)

Circumcision isn't practised (note sp. ; ) in Poland because they don't like the idea of it, and aren't Jewish or of Arab upbringing for the most part. End of.

AND A JOLLY GOOD THING TOO! (that they don't practise it ...)
- in my heathen opinion.

Law / What kombi/estate car to buy in Poland? [7]


I don't know that VW mechanics are anything to want ... every VW we have ever had has only been 'reliable' until something important blew and it cost thousands to repair ... every single one ... talking probably 10 cars over a period of 12 years, here.

We now have BMWs, and they have the kind of solidity and craftsmanship that I think people associated with VW once.

I would go for something unlikely to break down, but nothing is ultimately reliable. If you get a BMW or Audi, couldn't you get it fixed in Germany if anything went wrong? I don't know how prices are in Poland for servicing of those marques.

If it were me, I'd go for BMW, Audi or Mercedes. They cost more because they're better.

Life / The "I am never wrong" phenom - is it the Polish thing? [63]


I have gradually noticed it as a phenomenon over the past 6 years of living exclusively with Poles, and yes, it most certainly is one distinct mode of behaviour. That along with if in doubt, always lie. Haven't got time to list examples now, but will do later ...

And no, of course not all Poles do this, but it is something that some do, assiduously.

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


What ON EARTH are you talking about????

What is this idea that a natural one has to be in some way physically repulsive, or smell?????? What kind of crazy world do you live in? That is TOTAL NONSENSE. TOTALLY UNTRUE.

I guess you have no experience of it as nature intended. Well, trust me, it functions beautifully.

UK, Ireland / Domestic arguments caused by differences between Polish and English culture [109]


OMG I so completely relate to that. It is freaky when that happens. Like the shouts of horror and astonishment from my Polish other half and any of his family or friends when they see me wearing washing up gloves. That is apparently bordering on the insane, and certainly a point of amusement/embarrassment/derision for most ... I mean, wtf? Who is interested? Why can't I wear them? What is WRONG with it????

They actually say to me, spluttering with laughter and a kind of utter flabbergastedness: 'Why are you wearing those????'

Why do you think, you nitwits? So I don't burn my hands? So I don't have to touch dirty plates? Because I just had my nails done? Why NOT?

UK, Ireland / Domestic arguments caused by differences between Polish and English culture [109]


You don't know how glad I am to hear that!!! So it must be a regional and/or class issue, then, I guess ...

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


in times when there were problems with access to personal hygiene facilities, such as in the desert, or in wartime Britain ... but showers are generally freely available in the States now, I understood?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


I get the feeling you might be more passionate about the act of arguing than about whatever issue is at hand.

Can you factor this into your argument:

In the same way that if there were a genuine question of doubt, a point of debate, over someone's guiltiness of a crime that would carry the death penalty, one would err on the side of caution ... is it not the same where there is, freely acknowledged by most in this current discussion, a point of ambiguity and subjective interpretation over the point at which life begins? Should we not err on the side of caution, respect those who feel life begins at conception, respect and listen to the views of women who have had abortions and later regretted this hugely, and say ... abortion is not a thing into which one should enter lightly? It is not something that we can leave to 'choice'? It is something that should be taken so seriously, that a society says: we would rather not go there. And then does all it can to discourage abortion, and to support women in other ways, so that abortion is not so frequently sought?

If you are wrong, F4 - just think about that. What if you are wrong? What if life begins at conception, and you are saying it is ok for the securely living to extinguish those who have just a feeble grasp on the very beginning of their life ... what if you are saying it is ok to snuff them out, in the interests of 'choice'? Are you ok with that?

Because I wouldn't be. Just because something is small, but distinct, doesn't mean I can trample on it.

Mind you, I would avoid treading on a daisy. Why destroy?

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


In a word - No.

If European women did like American men, it would be for:

Their politeness.
The indoctrination (aka American film industry) which has made these men feel it is important to make the bed, cook dinner and worship their female companion, and not get divorced like in Kramer v. Kramer.

The fact that the average wage in the US is 18 dollars an hour, and those who make it into a social circle where they would meet European women are usually loaded, and appreciate the comparatively meagre demands of a European woman compared to a seasoned US female.

Because they are nice, and appreciate a nice woman.

Frankly, I would imagine a European woman would like an American man DESPITE his poor old mutilated schlong, as you call it. Not because of. Except, of course, where she does that thing where she over-compensates for a disability ...

UK, Ireland / Domestic arguments caused by differences between Polish and English culture [109]

Don't be ridiculous. Of course the one with one hole is for salt, and with lots of holes is for pepper. And they do write 'S' and 'P' on them in many sets - S for one hole, P for many ...

It is one of those crazy Polish things where they get the wrong end of the stick and then suddenly 4 million people are saying that is the right end of the stick. Like 'Babington'. I mean. Fcck me. That is where one Pole 80 years ago mispronounced 'Badminton', and now half a nation calls the game 'Babington' (with strong emphasis on the g) ...

I hopped up and down a bit when I first heard that, and told them all how wrong they were, but they looked at me as if I had recently landed in the stary rynek in my flying saucer, fresh from Mars.

Poles have a tendency to grab any old bit of second-hand, chinese-whispered fact and pass it on ... BIG TIME.

Life / The "I am never wrong" phenom - is it the Polish thing? [63]


thank you, thank you, i love you, i realise that i am not alone in this wilderness of mad Poles telling me black is white and then hitting me over the head with a horrid sausage ...

UK, Ireland / Domestic arguments caused by differences between Polish and English culture [109]


what, like saying 'tonnis' instead of 'tennis'?

Ok, simple error - so then when someone says 'oops - sorry - not right' - you say 'oops - sorry - yes' - not 'NO, I AM ABSOLUTELY RIGHT AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. WHAT, YOU RECKON YOU KNOW JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A (sneeringly said) 'NATIVE' ENGLISH SPEAKER???'.

I should try the same with Poles when I make a mistake. 'What - you say you're right just because you are a native Polish speaker? What makes you think you have the fxxxxxg right to tell me how to speak Polish, matey?'

Yes? Ok?

UK, Ireland / Domestic arguments caused by differences between Polish and English culture [109]


no, neither have I, but it sounds as daft as 'babington' ...

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


It is a word.
wordreference.com/definition/guiltiness

The use of it rather than the much more common 'guilt' was deliberate on my part, because 'guiltiness' imparts a slightly different nuance.


I think I need to put this in plainer English for you. You haven't understood my point. As follows:

If there is any reasonable doubt about whether someone is guilty, we don't kill them.

So, if there is any reasonable doubt about when life begins (which pretty much everyone in this discussion has agreed - i.e., that we can't agree when it might start - some think one thing, someone another), then we shouldn't kill what might be a very small human being.

That clear enough?

Foreigner4:
What if you are wrong NATASIA- just think about that. What if you are wrong?

Well, if I am wrong, someone is born and then as most likely will happen, their mother and/or father will realise that they deserve to be loved, and love them (prostitutes also love their kids, I imagine). And if you are wrong, someone gets killed. So I would prefer the former, because that leaves open the possibilities, whereas your mistake would leave someone dead.


No, but I think the institution that allows this, and the doctor who carries out this procedure, have done something wrong, and against the principles of the doctor's oath to support life.

Personally I didn't feel like a murderer, but I felt that I had failed to defend my child against someone else killing them. I failed in my duty, but the doctor/institution (and by that I mean government as much as the organisation that arranged the operation) - they all went ahead with something very, very wrong.

And yes, I'd love to be able to call the police and ask them to arrest the doctor, the assistants, the head of the organisation, on grounds of unlawful killing, because they misled me, and did not adhere to the terms of the 1967 Abortion Act, and therefore, yes, it was an illegal termination of life. Hmm. Good idea. Will call the police. See what they say.

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


I agree with your disagreement. You are right.


I disagree. Well, that is how I see it. I guess for you any old dick is a dick. For me, there are dicks and there are dicks.

Not that I have extensive research to compare, but the internet is a wonderful thing (arguably ; ) - just look up 'Penis Gallery' on the net and you will see how they differ ...

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


Well, since we do know that doctors would say to a woman 7-weeks' pregnant, if she had had a scan at 6 weeks showing a heartbeat, and then a scan at 7 weeks with no heartbeat, that ... her baby had died. 'We are so sorry. The baby was ok last week, but unfortunately now we can't find a heartbeat, so the baby has died'.

So, if it has died, then it was alive before.


Life support machines are artificial. If not on a life support machine, those people would be dead. (And don't start some nifty nonsense about the pregnant mother being a life support machine - she isn't a machine, although she performs the function of nurturing the developing child.)


Are you really that stupid, or just pretending?

You haven't been pregnant. I doubt you have seen someone close, such as your father, lying dead. I promise you that if you had had both of these experiences, you would be in no doubt at all what is life, and what is death.

Life support machines to keep someone 'alive' who has little or no chance of recovery are a different thing. In this situation, the body is usually going nowhere, and the mind is unconscious, possibly never to come back. A developing child is rapidly growing, and is on a straight course to birth and being a young person. You cut off someone who will possibly never live again, it is a hard decision, but probably you are only hastening what is coming anyhow. In cutting off a developing child, you are interrupting the rush to birth. You are not hastening the inevitable death. You are intercepting the inevitable life.

But if you are really so stupid that I have to explain that to you, then am not sure why am even talking to you.

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


: ) Thank you. Liking always gratefully accepted.

I think I am what they call 'finding my internet voice'. I am becoming more bolshy and outspoken by the second : D

I read that first as 'Oh, my Natasia' - that sounded good, as well.

I just think women who say all dicks are the same are deliberately lying. Or perhaps are lesbians?

But, I hasten to add - I am not saying that some dicks are inherently better than others, regardless of who they are attached to. No, no, no. The one attached to the man you love, the one that has perhaps helped create your beautiful daughter, or some such - that is the best one.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


It wasn't meant as an insult. It was just that it felt like you were posing ideas just for the sake of argument. And that felt like deliberate denseness. I don't think you're stupid, but I find it frustrating to discuss with someone who says we don't know when someone is dead.

This whole idea that there is any confusion about life and death ... there isn't. New life starts when fertilisation begins. Death would happen to those not on life support. (That they might be aided by life support and then recover doesn't change that - if they weren't on life support, they would be dead.)


I wouldn't, I don't think you are, and anyhow I wouldn't use that word. I reserve that for people who try to con honest workmen out of money, that sort of thing.


I think the figure is about 33%. And when there is a miscarriage, they say 'the baby died' or 'the baby didn't survive'. They don't say 'the baby was dead anyhow and now it is just deader'. (That's what I mean about stupid ... your arguments unravel and end up in statements that are just plain ... ok. Just daft, let's say.)


: ) Ok. Like zillions of women, I have felt new life growing inside me. Also like zillions, I have seen the body of my father, which clearly wasn't alive, and no amount of me arguing otherwise would have changed that. When you feel a tiny flutter against your stomach around 16 weeks and know that the baby is now big enough for you to feel his or her movement, you are absolutely, yes, certain and sure as anything, that a living creature is inside you. And you know that creature was moving before, but you couldn't feel it because he or she was as yet too small. And if you think I am 'projecting' when I say that when you see your father dead, you, erm, will be very sure that he is dead then ... ok. You think that. I'm not projecting. I'm just telling you how it is. You won't be in any doubt.

I only used that rather personal example to point out that the distinction between alive and dead is really a pretty simple one. And yes, of that distinction, I am very sure. As are, I'm also sure, zillions of other people. This isn't some personal opinion of mine. This is observed fact. Just because I am only talking about my observation of it, doesn't mean it isn't true. I don't need to read research to know my baby is alive when she kicks my tummy. You don't need research to tell you that if you jump off a building, you might not survive, and whatever happens, it will bloody hurt. We don't need research to tell us everything ...


This is of course what I was trying to say ... : )
Since you can't be certain the unborn baby isn't alive, you should proceed as if it is. And therefore not kill it.


No, and I didn't say that. I said that as you haven't been pregnant, you haven't felt a child inside you, so you can't say 'it isn't alive' with as much conviction as those who have felt a live child inside them and know full well it is alive. The guys aren't actually claiming that unborn children aren't alive with anything like your conviction. Look: what is so difficult about this point? If you have climbed Everest, and I haven't, then you are much more of an expert on it than I am. I can say 'oh, the research tells me it isn't very cold up there' as much as I like, but if you were there, and you felt the cold, your voicing of your experience is more true than my conjecture based on research. Basically, you know, and I don't.

UK, Ireland / Domestic arguments caused by differences between Polish and English culture [109]


'hod-dog' is different.

Look, what annoyed me wasn't 'babington' - yes, I thought it funny and charming and an interesting adoption, but what annoyed me was everyone being so vehement about how right they were, and about how I had got it wrong. That is the annoying bit.

Anyhow, it isn't any kind of big deal to me!! Was just giving another example of a nation getting the wrong end of the stick and then forever saying black is white, or whatever it is. Like the salt and pepper. No, it doesn't matter at all, but that was what this thread was about ...

But sure, cultural differences which are serious, and actually do make waves, are:

- The Polish reflex lying - they will always say 'It wasn't me'
- The refusal ever to be wrong, or say sorry, or (often) thank you
- The determination to have things their way ...

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


? So is a baby not alive when it is born then? Because it can't make conscious (or even couscous ; ) logical decisions for months, if not years ... come on.

But what happened to that visitor to your country who was not given the best medical care because of the law re: abortion - of course that is wrong, appalling, dreadful. The point there is that the doctor said she was miscarrying and so the baby would die, so OF COURSE she should have been saved.

I have always said that if there is an urgent medical necessity - to save the mother's life, where the baby will anyhow not survive - then if termination is part of saving her life then that is emergency treatment and unfortunately that is what has to happen.

What I think is wrong is when you have a perfectly healthy pregnancy, baby and mother, and because it doesn't suit the mother's life plan at that moment to have a baby, the baby is dispensed with. That is not ok.


mush? An unborn child isn't some sort of blob, you know. Did you think it just existed as a 'state' during pregnancy, then only forms into limbs, etc, and a baby when each bit touches the fresh air????? At 24 weeks it looks like a small version of a newborn baby. There are loads of pics and videos on the net of premature babies born at 24 weeks, who go on to survive normally. These people have pictures of their children because they love and cherish them.

Look, abortion for medical reasons - ok. Abortion because you fxxxxd up and aren't sure you want a baby now - not ok.

UK, Ireland / Domestic arguments caused by differences between Polish and English culture [109]


When I lived in Poland, I liked everyone. Loved them. Thought they were great. Though my mother in law was crazy, but have since noticed she is just true to type.

Now I have had seven years' experience of living with Poles in the UK, and in this time some totally unexpected issues have come out ... I have noticed somethings which can't be explained as one-offs ... which are deliberate behaviours, or traits, noticed in a number of people.

One, small example.

People are living in my house. I have a set of mugs my grandmother gave me. After a few months, I can't find two of them. Hmm, I think. Then one day I come in and find one of my house guests shoving something in a plastic bag - it makes broken china noises ...

Stop the tape: If I had just broken something by accident in someone's house, I would at this point have said 'God am so sorry - broke yr mug - must get you a new one' and then the other person would have said 'oh no! no problem - don't worry - it's ok' or some such, and at least would have known what happened to the mug.

What happened:

Her: nothing. Tried to stuff bag in a cupboard.
Me: Oh no ... did something get broken?
Her: No.
Me: But ... what's in that bag?
Her: Nothing.
Me: But ... what was that china noise?
Her: Nothing.

I persisted a bit, and she then went out with the bag, and I was just kind of a bit dumfounded.

I am not one to accuse. I am ridiculously understanding and ok about things. But I would have to be stupid not to see that there has been a kind of thing going on here. And this inability to fess up and just be normal ... it is very infuriating.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


erm ... that actually means to calm troubled waters ... I think you meant the opposite ...


Thank you, Barney. Normal understanding. Like, birds fly, the sea is wet, and life starts at conception. Someone on a life support machine would be, by definition of 'life support', be dead if not on it. etc.

I really really find it hard to understand why people have this kind of obsession with arguing against facts like this. It seems ... perverse.


That is a GOOD fact, p3! I didn't know that! So ... if a woman is on her way to get an abortion, and is murdered, then it is killing a life, but if she had made it to the clinic and aborted the baby that would just have been a medical procedure and her absolute right not to carry a child if she didn't fancy it ... and there we have the whole stupid double-standards cr@p.

Love / Are Polish men handsome to you? [182]

95% of men. I have a thing for Poles. I know, not normal. But hey. Why fight it.

I don't understand this stuff about Polish guys not being sexy. What?! Think of it like this. Quite a lot of English men look like Mr Bean. No Polish men look like him.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]

Well, yes, I do agree with that in a way, but that is a conversation for a glass of wine and no curfew ...

Love / Are Polish men handsome to you? [182]


Imagine Mr Bean's twin sister. Would you like to have sex only with her for the rest of your life?

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]

Yes, I would certainly entertain that thought. I find it fairly astonishing that some things they do aren't even commented upon, or at least not by the general populace.

Oh, it's all a big con, it's all about money and making things go the way they want, and about power.


And it wouldn't even have been a termination, strictly speaking, because the pregnancy had already failed. A termination is deliberately intervening to end a pregnancy, which in turn of course terminates the life of the unborn child. In this situation the unborn child was already doomed, and a natural termination was already in process. To aid this process medically, to make it as safe as possible for the mother, and frankly to make it as quick as possible for the dying child, would have been the merciful and surely medically correct thing.

You would have thought that on such an issue, the Irish authorities could have made sure that every health professional in the land knew the rules. Ie, that if it was a case of an emergency such as this, and the life of the mother in danger, then the natural process should have been managed and assisted.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


I didn't feel like that before I had the operation, because the whole system here is set up to present a 'termination' as an ok thing to do - it isn't really a life - it is just a tiny blob - you will quickly recover and everything will be fine.

The reality of the procedure, and of my reaction to it, and of my increasing experience and wisdom over the years of how precious each life actually is, and how precious each of my children - all of this is something I only had access to after having 'made' the decision.

And my one and only point about abortion is that women should be made as fully aware as possible of what they are doing, and what they are THROWING AWAY, to ensure they are in absolutely the best position to make as informed a choice as is possible, despite in the case of first-time mothers, their total lack of experience of pregnancy and having a child.

And I don't think this is done. Because people fighting for 'choice' won't allow women to hear the full facts, because they think that will ... what? Put them off? Make them feel bad about their 'choice'? Maybe it will make some women think so hard that they don't have an abortion, yes. And then later, they won't have to regret it. They will in years to come think (at least some of them) 'Phew - thank God I didn't have a abortion - what was I even thinking??'.

And to my mind, if only one single woman is spared the emotional torment I have to live with as a result of that 'decision', then it is worth it.

So all I want is full information, no air-brushing, no talk of lifeless blobs - because that is not how it works afterwards. Afterwards one starts to think things like ' hang on - I will now not ever see the face of my child'. Or 'I will never know if I had a girl or a boy' (although I am certain I had a girl, and have been right with the other two so probably right). Or 'What ... did they do with the body of my unborn child?'. And a whole host of other awful questions. And the thing is, I have my whole life to think about that. And you can bet your bottom dollar that those who did it, and took the money, don't have a second thought about it.

I am just so sorry that I trusted a flawed system, and yes, I am angry that a law designed to protect exactly people like me was just blatantly flouted. The law says that abortion can only be given to a mother if she will suffer much more physically or emotionally if she goes through with the pregnancy. I ran out of the hospital once. Surely that should have raised doubts in their mind about my suitability for this procedure? I was 21. I knew nothing. I was very naive. And they failed me. And my parents also failed me.

So no, I am not keen on 'choice' when it isn't a real choice. There is so much talk about those women who 'desperately' want an abortion, and so desperately need to be allowed their 'choice' and their 'rights' over 'their body'. But what about a woman who doesn't even yet grasp the implications of her actions, and is channelled into the preferred 'sensible' behaviour by those around her, and denied - yes, denied - access to the full facts? I can tell you that if I had had to have a scan, and see pictures of the developing child at the time when I had the abortion, and to see pictures post-abortion, then I would not have done it. And if someone had also talked to me about the long-term, lifetime implications of regret - I would not have.

But nobody did. And I think that is a failing in the system, and, frankly, in the law.

So I am not against choice. I am pro a real choice.

And yes ... I do wish I had been brought up in a country that considered abortion a terrible thing to do, and something that should only be done as an absolute last resort in the case of medical emergency. I really do.

Ok. I will shut up now. Not sure what else there is for me to say.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]

Before abortion I didn't feel like I was about to permit murder - if I had, wouldn't have done it.
Afterwards, it felt as if I had permitted murder.
If I had been properly informed beforehand, I wouldn't have done it.
Choice is all very well so long as it is a fully informed choice, and that would involve, e.g., scans and pictures and literature about the development stages of the unborn child.

Choice at the moment in the UK is boll*cks, as far as I am concerned.
I wish I'd been in Poland, where my child would have been respected and protected.

May not be 140 characters, but hope digestible.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


Actually, to some degree it is. (and it's 'an' abortion)

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


At the time, there was no internet.

And they don't teach you about serious emotional consequences in Biology ...


I like you too, 4 F : ) Thank you for getting it : ) (and for trying to make it simple for others ...)


I think I'm the only one who has brought any personal experience into this, apart from those women who have said they would never have kids. Totally not trying to score points - just to share relevant experience.


Which takes time. Years. And experience. Unless you are one of those ladies who is always extremely sure of herself, and has been from a young age ...