Genealogy / I am 1/8 Polish on my mother's side - not Polish enough / Lithuania and Zmudz in Poland's ancestry [110]

Sorry for my poor English.
The first 40 years of my life I was sure that my grandfather was Polish by speaking Polish and belonging to Roman Catholic Church.
He was born in Penza - Volga region - Russia and didn't return from World War II.
Afrer my mother - his daughter - died I started looking for the past of their family in archives.
I managed to discover genealogy of three ancestors' famolies (grand-grandfather, his mother, and grand-grandmother) untill 17 century.
I was surprised to learn that they weren't Polish at all. They were Polish-speaking Catholic residents of Litwa (now territories of today Belarus and Lithania), not of the Crown as Polish people. The were polonized Russians or Lithanians. As for example the poet Adam Mickiewicz.

I think There are many people who think they have Polish origin but they are Lithanians (not ethnic Lithaniana but residents of ancient Litwa.

Genealogy / I am 1/8 Polish on my mother's side - not Polish enough / Lithuania and Zmudz in Poland's ancestry [110]


That's quite inportant for people in Belarus , ex-Litwa.
They are told by Polish and Russians that their ethnic group was able only to be a peasant, not szlachtic. That is a damageful. People should know more than 10 per cent of their compatriots were from szlachta, they called themselves untill the 19 century litwiny. They were Belorussians and Lithanians although spoke Polish (as Irish people speak English)

Genealogy / I am 1/8 Polish on my mother's side - not Polish enough / Lithuania and Zmudz in Poland's ancestry [110]

Poles and Lithanians were also from a united RP. That didn't keep such people as Adam Mickiewicz away from his Litwin origin. The first words of his Pan adeusz are: Litwa my Motherland...

Genealogy / I am 1/8 Polish on my mother's side - not Polish enough / Lithuania and Zmudz in Poland's ancestry [110]


Russian by Belief and citizenship bur my mother had origin in Litwa

Genealogy / I am 1/8 Polish on my mother's side - not Polish enough / Lithuania and Zmudz in Poland's ancestry [110]

Each country consists of such mixes.
Millions of people in Russia has ancestors from Litwa and Crown by massive deportations of previous centuries and many people settled for Russia before 1917 by unemployment.

I was managed to learn my ancestors' history untill 17 century because they presented it to Szlachetska commission for szlachta confirmation in 1840-1850. Three ancestors families past became evident. My mother knew only names of her grandfathers because it was dangerous to tell anything about non-proletarian or non-peasant past of family to little children in 1930-1940/ When she became a grown-up everybody was dead.

Many people in Russia in such situation

Language doesn't shows ethnicity in any case. Irish people speak English. That doesn't mean they are Englishmen.
Of course Mickiewicz was a Lithanian-Polish unity in one state partisan. Nobody may oppose to that idea because we see it in his works. But we also should agree that people Litwa in his epoch called themselves Litwins, not Polish people. They were Polish only for foreigners.

I don't think we should follow the ideas of official Poland of 1918-1939 that renamed Litwa as Kresy and also renamed Brest-Litowski.

Genealogy / I am 1/8 Polish on my mother's side - not Polish enough / Lithuania and Zmudz in Poland's ancestry [110]

Scratch a Polish szlachtic and you will also find a Tatar.
You deal with ius sanguis, blood law.
I deal with ius soli, ground law.
Russians have not only Tatars among ancestors but also tribes similar to today Finland residents and many turk tribes appeared in this region since 6 century. But Russia is not called Tataria since 1480 and never was called Suomi.

As to Litwa it had such name in difference with Crown (Poland) even after Lublin Union.
Until 1795 Litwins didn't call themselves Poles.
Now Litwa is apart from Poland. Two states Belarus and Litvania occupy its territory.
That's the reason why I think My ancestors were from Litwa not for Poland despite speaking Polish

Life / Gypsies or Roma: European and Polish attitudes towards [87]


In Russia Gipsy culture is traditionally popular since 19 century. Russians are very fond of Gipsy songs. Besides that it is known that they have strong families and many children.

Russians consider Gipsy women newer comit adulterium.
That is the ground for respect of Gipsies among Russians.

Unfotrunately the relations of Gipsies with the rest of population in Russia is poisoned be high lewel of criminality, especially in drug traffic.
Many Gipsy families sell drug. But it is very uneasy to punish because only women who have many little childten transport drugs/ In case of capture Trial is unable to sentence such woman to a long imprisonment, and tha estimulates narcotrafic.

Life / Gypsies or Roma: European and Polish attitudes towards [87]

I have a suspect that Gypsies have a strong punish for their dissidents and renegates, people who want to abandon their communities.
I don't have another explication why nearly nobody of them leave tabors for more comfortable living conditions in European traditional societies

Genealogy / I am 1/8 Polish on my mother's side - not Polish enough / Lithuania and Zmudz in Poland's ancestry [110]


There were immigrants from Poland in Litwa but the majority of Polish-speaking szlachta People were Ruthenians and Zmud (ethnic Lithuanians) by origin. They felt a unity with Pole szlachta but we have few evidence they called Poles themselves. The lists of szlachta in Grodno at the beginning of 19 century shows us that people called themselves bielaruska or litowska szlachta (sorry for spelling).

Most of them spoked Polish (as well as Belorussian) but they didn't feel themselves Poles by ground (lex soli). There was still a difference between Crown and Litwa.

As to the immigrants, most of them were really naturalized there as people from Bogatyrowiczi described by Elisa Orgezkowa.
My version is that they felt themselves Poles alter Poland received status of Kingdom and Litwa passed to be Russian Gubernijas. The second reason was the liquidation of United Church. Greek-Catholics gave the feeling of some national unanimity within Litwa: 80 per cent of peasants and at least 25 per cent of poor szlachta. When Greek Catholicism disappeared Roman Catholics and former Greek Catholics passed to Roman rite felt themselves in minority and the wish to feel themselves within a great catholic nation appeared.

I'm sure this is common with 19 century not before.
This is my version. Historians in Belarus (except official) support this idea


Now it is not dangerous especially among middle classers.
Old Victorian Polish speking middle class is still in memory and respect among Russian middle classers.
They hate contemporary Polish behaviour presented in the films and in private contacts: angry agressive and inmoral.
Gamal I'd like to invite you to a discussion https://polishforums.com/archives/2005-2009/history/poland-russia-ending-story-11550/ As ro me it seems to be very interesting


As to Germans you give an example of colonists. As to Polish speaking people in Litwa. the majority was formed by native szlachta that could speak Polish and used it in pyblic places since 1696. By the way, in 18 century the petitions in Grodno tribunale from little szlachta nearly always have signs of national Belarus language.

But even if sarmats from Litwa knew a perfect Polish that doesn't signify they thought about themselves they were not only Pospolitny people but also Poles.

Belarus cities are speaking Russian mainly but in you ask anybody if he is Russian he'll respond No I'm Bielorussian. Only some intellectuals cultivate local language (its numbe grows) but everydody is Bielorussian

I don't think one should put in doubt that:
1. There were in Litwa native bojary and semjany of Ruthenian and Zemajtian origin.
2. They were quite numerous and in 15-16 centuries its number multiplicated considerably.
3. They could speak Polish as well as Ruthenian.
4. They considered Litwa to be their Fatherland. They didn't consider they were from Crown.
They were Litwins and Litwins weren't Poles in that time

I'm not an expert. Please correct me if I am wrong. It is quite uneasy to learn such details away fron Poland without Polish language.

But I thought Pole and Litwin were in 15-18 centuries quite a different terms and Litwin never was Pole

Language / Ideas of messianism of Adam Mickiewicz - more info needed [21]

I shall agree with you. Heretics such as Mickiewicz were enough damageful.
But as to his intuition of Fatherland, well I think it was not only common with him.

Life / "Hej Sokoly" - song research [11]

I'll unite to lukasz_wie
What is known about this song? I have two its recordings. I can send them. My e-mail truhlei@mail.ru

Genealogy / Lukianski, Onichimowski, Wolkowysk, Hryncewicz, Stryewski, Szymont, Jacunski, Szyszko, Korbut, Norbut origins [14]

My ancestors Lukianski were of Herb Przyjaciel - Friend
Onichimowski of Herb Lubicz
Both mentioned in their documents to Departament Geroldii in Saint Petersburg (confirmations of 1851 and 1852 correspondingly). Also mentioned by count Seweryn Uruski
Hryncewicz yes of Przegonia

As to Polish origin, what are your reasons for such conviction?
Besides that I find it very doubtful that herbs were received bu admission to clans. There are many researches claiming that in Litwa everything was more simple and one shouldn't pay much attention to herbs in case of Litwa

Genealogy / Lukianski, Onichimowski, Wolkowysk, Hryncewicz, Stryewski, Szymont, Jacunski, Szyszko, Korbut, Norbut origins [14]

By the way Uruski describes Lukianski PRZYJACIEL as proceeding fron Ruthenian Wolyn family Pawlowicz. Ruthenians with Polish surname?


Stryjewski/ I have marriage record of 1816

Genealogy / I am 1/8 Polish on my mother's side - not Polish enough / Lithuania and Zmudz in Poland's ancestry [110]

But by ground did they all call themselves Litwins?


Not an old one? Of the past?

Life / Famous Polish people (that we have actually heard of) [231]

Kings Wladyslaw Wasa and his younger brother Jan Kasimerz

Genealogy / I am 1/8 Polish on my mother's side - not Polish enough / Lithuania and Zmudz in Poland's ancestry [110]


I didn't state there was any hostile type of Nationalism in Litwa.
My only statement is that Pospolity people were divided into Poles and Litwins by living in Crown or Litwa.
The other division was in Religion or rite within the Crown between Lachs (Roman Catholics) and Russins (Orthodox or Greek Catholics). Within Litwa Orthodox and Greek Catholics also were called Russins but as to Roman Catholics, I don't know their name but doubt that Lachs. And the name of Litwins was common with all Litwa citizens.

Language / Is the term 'Polak' derogatory?? [254]

I'm Russian. The Russians as well as Ukranians call Poles only Polak (more exactly "Poljak") and Polka (female).
I'm sure this term is used since 18 century at least (Lach before).
It is used without any derrogatory sense. It is quite neutral. No Pole who speak Russian or Ukranian notice any negative in this word. No Pole told me he found himself offended when Russians or Ukranians spoke about him as Polak or her as Polka.

Language / Is the term 'Polak' derogatory?? [254]

In Russia and Ukraine it seems to be not so by the mere fact that for today it is the only name for Pole. Formerly in 17-18 centuries Poles were also called Lachs but this is quite an obsolet for today Russian and Ukranian languages.

Language / Is the term 'Polak' derogatory?? [254]


Is it possible that settlers from these countries put this word into use in the West?
As to offensive meaning, there are some other examples. Russians call a Jew as Evrej. A word Zyd also exists but only in offensive meaning in Russian. Only an antisemit cal call Jew in such way.

As to West Slavs as far as I know that is the only word that means Jew ant it is not offensive. It is quite neutral

Genealogy / Lukianski, Onichimowski, Wolkowysk, Hryncewicz, Stryewski, Szymont, Jacunski, Szyszko, Korbut, Norbut origins [14]

Thank you for this explication. Even ethnic Lithuanians were unable to give me this information.
But there are several surnames with suffix "mont". I met also Skirmont.
Besides that Russian Orthodox Church has a Saint named Dowmont. He was a Lithuanian Duke, elected as Pskow (Russia) governor.
So mont or mantas are quite frequent suffix in East Europe.

And the second question. What can a Lithuanian suffix "but" mean? It exists in surnames as Korbut and Narbut

Life / Famous Polish people (that we have actually heard of) [231]


Gogol as far as I know was from family Janowski. They were Orthodox Russins from Wolyn or from Lvov. Some of his ancestors were Orthodox priests.

Dostoeyvski's ancestors were from Litwa. Intill today their village Dostoewo exists in the region of Brest-Litowski. His family was also Orthodox. Some 150 years his ancestors spent in Russia before he was born. More than 100 years Janowski family lived in Russia before the burth of Gogol.

I'm not sure their ancestors were called as Poles. Janowski family was Russin and Dostoewski also Russin and Litwin.


In this case Jan Barszczewski with his book Szlachcic Zawalnja or Belarus in fantastic stories should be also of great interest to you? I think his works are very similar to Gogol's best stories.

Genealogy / I am 1/8 Polish on my mother's side - not Polish enough / Lithuania and Zmudz in Poland's ancestry [110]

I thought much about ethnic Lithanian people in Lithanian Szlachta.
I came to the conclusion that even at the beginning of 15 century despite the fact many of them could speak Lithuanian in their families, the majority already received Slav surnames. The surnames of szlachta appeared during the creation of lists of militia (so called Popis). In Litwa they were all composed in Russian. The surname as rule was formed by father's name according to Russian standarts. If an ethnic Lithuanian had a father by the name of Pawel he became Pawlowicz and not Pavlauskas as today.

Sometimes we can suspect (only suspect) an ethnic Lithanian origin. When the surname derives drom a name that Orthodox people don't have. For example Franckiewicz or Stankewicz. The majority of ethnic Lithuanians were Roman Catholics and very few Rusins in Litwa of 16 century

Witek

Did you notice any movement toward polonization of surnames in Lithuania in 17 century?
I know notning about that but some facts make me suspect that.
For example in the list of militia in Litwa in 1519 some 95% of Lithanian szlachta surnames have suffix -wicz and there are only very few surnames with suffix -ski.

As to 18 century, I think some 50% of surnames had suffix -ski.
We can suppose the majority of surnames with suffix -ski may appear in late 16-17 centuries when szlachta nubber was multiplicated in Litwa and new families with new surnames (already polonized) appeared. Besides that many old Lithanian families-clans separated in 16-17 centuries into different new families that received new surnames.

But there are still doubts...
For example in the List of militia of 1519 only one family with Rusin surname Anisimowicz was mentioned and the family was from Wolkowysk (sorry for possible wrong spelling). There were no Anisimowicz in 18 century as far as I know, but family Onichimowski was well known in Wolkowysk powiat in 18 century.

Life / Gypsies or Roma: European and Polish attitudes towards [87]


In Russia the say they are a trube who came from India some 1000 years ago. They usually have strict and well organized communities, their leaders called as Baro (some people confund it with Baron - so the term Gipsy Baron appeared). They have an internal legislature and a great division between attitude toward people within the community and abroad. There are many good customs within the community: nobody can stael anything that belongs to another Gipsy family, wimen don't commit adulterium (but not men) no abortions at all. But as to the world outside Gipsy community, no rules are active. It is possible to steal, to sell drugs etc.

The main deficiency in my opinion is that young Gipsies who want to leave the community and live among other people are usually threatened. I at least suspect that

Life / Gypsies or Roma: European and Polish attitudes towards [87]


Espana, as Spanish I'm sure you can tell us much about Gipsies. There are many Gipsies in Spain and Latin America and Spanish people seem to know well their traditions

Language / Is the term 'Polak' derogatory?? [254]


Quite an interesting phenomenon. In 17 century Lach was the only term in Russian for Roman Catholic szlachtic from the Crown. Sometimes Russians called Roman Catholics from Litwa also az Lachy. That was quite neutral and the only term for Poles.

Now it may be derrogatory in Russian but not in all cases (for example for Russian historian it is quite neutral and historical). As to its derrogatory sense now, it in my opinion came from West Ukraine. It could be also neutra there but some old west Ukranians hated all Poles since Austrian period.

As to Russians they seem to know nothing of derrogative names of Poles. Sometimes the expression Pszek is used but very few Russians know it (I learned it first when I was 42 years old from a Polish article). That occures because Russian man in the street knows very little about Poles and doesn't have contacts with them at all and Rissian mass media inform only about meal problem and few Polish activities in EU. As to antimissil challenge, it is described as complete USA creation. You see, no possibility to invent any derrogative name

Life / Gypsies or Roma: European and Polish attitudes towards [87]


Romanians mean Gipsies or people from Romania?

Life / Gypsies or Roma: European and Polish attitudes towards [87]


I'm sure nobody all over the world can be in competition with Romanians (Gipsies as well as Romania residents).
Don't be angry, Grzegorz.

Genealogy / I am 1/8 Polish on my mother's side - not Polish enough / Lithuania and Zmudz in Poland's ancestry [110]

Witek,

Can you give us the explication of nobel Prussian surnames ending by "c". Isn't it the Slav transformed "cz"? Does that mean that these nobels are of Slav origin or the villages they owned were Slavs?