History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]

Tuchola was not the root of Katyn.
In Sept/Oct.1920, my grandfather served in a small military detail,that handled the burial of 2,000-3,000 Polish P.O.W.'s who were tortured,then brutally murdered by the Bolsheviks.

The P.O.W's were left to rot,in a forest clearing,near a railway siding.
The Bolsheviks left behind a banner,declaring that some day, they would return for "the rest of them!".
The Bolsheviks committed this war crime,while they winning the 1919-1920 war against Poland.
Through out my Grandfather's Polish Military service,his commanding officers offered many times to send him to Officers school.
My Grandfather turned down these requests,and remained a NCO Lance Corporal. He always remembered what the Bolsheviks did in 1919-1920.
Katyn in the Spring of 1940,was only the logical conclusion of Bolshevik/Communist idealogy of class warfare.
Tuchola,was unfortunately the result of many factors,hunger,disease,lack of sanitation,lack of housing facilities.
A tragic event.
But,Poland was the Eastern Front during W.W.I,the country was stripped bare of almost everything by Russia,and the Central Powers.
During,1918-1920 2-3 milllion Polish citizens were on the brink of famine. Only thing that saved these people was Hubert Hoover's war relief efforts.

Equating Tuchola,with Katyn is intellectually,morally, incorrect.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]

Thanks Borrka,Sokrates for your replies!
I don't have Issac Babel's books, Red Cavalry,and Memiors.
But,I will have to find them. I think I have, almost all the English language books on the Polish-Bolshevik War of 1919-1920?
The Soviet Mounted Armies were also cruel to the Germans,Czech villages in Wolyn. I am not sure how the Belorussians were treated? I bet their experiences were similiar in 1919-1920?

I noticed on this discussion thread, there has been some dismissive comments directed at the accomplishments of the Ukrainian nation.
Which is unfortunate.
But Ukraine has been dominated and controlled by Mongols,Poles/Lithiunians,Moscovite/Russia, for the best part of the last 800 years. For a someone who was Ukrainian, to have accomplished anything of wide acclaim,they would have to do it within one of societies that dominated their country.

Since,Ukraine didn't exist as a independent country,politically,culturally,economically,militarily.

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]

Thanks for the reply Sokrates!
I thought Grodno fell to the Bolsheviks in July,1920? Never realized a Belarussian Division held off the Bolsheviks, till late Sept.1920?
From what I know of Pilsudski's federal plans,Belarussia was supposed to be a part of a 3 canton state,joined with Lithuania.
A Lithuanian dominated canton,Wilno canton dominated by Poles,and Minsk centred canton dominated by Belarussians.
Looking back on this idea,it seems visionary?
Too bad the Treaty of Riga ended such a idea. Especially,when the Polish Army controled Minsk, and almost all of Belarussia.
Why were the National Democrats so hostile,to the Belarussian aspirations? When Belarussia supported the Polish cause as strong as they did, in 1920?
As far as Ukraine was concerned.
Ukraine in spring of 1920, was mostly illiterate peasants and workers,except for Kiev,and other major towns/cities. In Kiev from 1918 till 1920,wasn't there something like 14-15 government changes?

And,wasn't the public mood in April/early June 1920 Ukraine, reported to be something similiar to, suspicious apathy towards Petlura government,and the Polish political/military presence?

The Petlura government governed, for about 6-8 weeks. The Ukrainian Army expanded from 15,000 in April 1920,to 35,000. A modest,but respectable accomplishment,considering the political/military situation. Suggests to me the indolence of the Ukrainian masses,would have been overcome, after a period of stable governance?

Didn't the Ukrainian Army fight alongside the Polish Army,during the dark days of the summer of 1920? Participating in the campaigns of in Wolyn,Galicia,and battles of Lvov,Komarow.

I haven't found any statistics for the Ukrainian Army's number of Killed,Wounded,POW's taken while fighting the Bolsheviks,from April 1920 to Mid Nov.1920?

Were the National Democratic Party elites,the only ones, who considered the Ukrainian ideal worthless?
Soviet policies directed towards the Ukraine from 1921 till 1931/32, suggest the ideal of Ukraine was considered valuable?

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]

Thanks for your reply Sokrates.
The Poles who defended the Ukraine in 1920,were not likeable enough? I just don't think the Ukrainian population, had enough time to get to like them?

I don't think Ukrainians realized, they were facing slavery/extermination, in the spring of 1920?
But,the Bolsheviks were better propagandists in 1920. They played on a undercurrent of mistrust of the Polish Landlord class,and the Jews.
The last thing the Poles wanted,or needed in 1920, was Ukrainian mistrust.
The only thing the Bolsheviks needed to win, was a atmosphere of Ukrainian apathy,mistrust.
As the old saying goes:The only thing evil needs to triumph,is good people to do nothing.

Genealogy / THE MEANING AND RESEARCH OF MY POLISH LAST NAME, SURNAME? [4500]

Merged thread:
Meaning and Orgins of Serwach/Serwus/Serwusz surname?

Greetings!
I am doing some research on one of the surnames, in my family tree.
On was polishroots.com and noticed the surname Serwach/Serwus/Serwusz is still used in Poland.
Would anyone here know of the meaning,and orgins of the surname Sewach/Serwus/Serwusz?
Thank You kindly for your assistence!
Have a Great Day!

History / Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn? [220]

Greetings!
I was just revisting this thread lately,and noticed, it has wandered away from orginal topic some?
Happy to meet your acquaintance ConstantineK!
Upon revewing your posts on Tuchola. I see our only point of agreement would be, on the point of number of lives lost in the Tuchola P.O.W.camps,and Katyn P.O.W.camps.

I think the Tuchola P.O.W. camps,had more in common with the German WWI P.O.W. camps, than Katyn.
My Great Uncle was a soldier in the Russian army during WWI,and was captured and sent to a P.O.W. camp in Germany.

He survived,the lack food,shelter,epidemics rampant in these camps, during the Allied Naval blockade of Germany at the time.
My Great Uncle,was released from the P.O.W. camp to serve as unpaid farm labour. During this he again,survived lack of food,shelter,and something new beatings from his new German "employers".

The most terrifying thing for him, about being outside the wire of a P.O.W. camp. Was avoiding the bands of armed Right Wing/Left Wing Extremists,who looted,summarily executed civilians,including women and children.

When my Great Uncle finally emigrated from Germany,he was glad to leave behind the land of the "Devil".
I am not sure,if,the conditions of Bolshevik P.O.W's in Poland,were worse than German WWI P.O.W. camps? But,I bet the material,medical conditions were similiar.

I don't know,if,there is any great debate of German WWI P.O.W. camp conditions going on today?
The only thing I can see feeding the Tuchola debate today.
Would be geopolitical rivialry still playing itself out in Eastern Europe.
ConstantineK, as far my Grandfather's stories about the Polish-Bolshevik War, being tales to frighten children?
Other Independent eye witness acounts to the events of 1919-1920, validate my Grandfather's recollections
Most notably, the great Soviet writer Issac Babel who served in Buddenny's Cavalry.