News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


That's nice!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

So, the polish nationalism of old was "unhealthy"?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


"Growing into"? Seriously? Nationalism is a kind of new thing for Poles???


Na ja...it's like with socialism vs. capitalism.....capitalism won because it made more people happy than socialism. And liberal democracy is so successful because it also makes more people happy than a dictatorship or a kingdom or any other tried form of governance.

It might be that there will be another, even more successful form of society and economy....but I don't now of any yet.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


....well....then the US will have to keep on "feeding" us! So you better hope we make it work...so we can pull our own weight.

And it's not us rejecting the US, it's Trump rejecting the EU. But he will be gone sooner or later and the relationship can normalize again.

It would be better for both of us if we start rejecting China together. I'm not so sure about a hostile "Ivan" though....

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

I doubt most are ready for it now....it's a generational progress...people will grow into it.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Well....the United States of America didn't start out united either....there had even been wars leading to and keeping this unification.


It can only be a federation...as in United States of Europe! :)

Nobody said the unification of Europe will be easy or anytime soon!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Well, that's gonna change now....

Oh and a unified defense force like the one the EU plans would be your best bet to save you the nerves and the costs to defend those ungrateful sob's.

A "crumbling" EU would be of no help....no country alone could stem the costs to supplant the US. You would need to send troops into every one of them...

So you better start cheering the EU and it's PESCO project...


Germany is already quite great, thank you! The best in Europe and at least in the top 10 of the world....:)

Or even better :)

....Germany's leading advantage is its consistent strengths across multiple reputational categories: Exports, Culture, Immigration/Investment, and Governance. Global citizens have positive feelings about buying German products and the employability of the German people, putting Germany first in both categories for 2019. Citizens from China have the highest opinion of Germany's Exports, Governance, People, and Immigration/Investments...

ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/Germany-Retains-Top

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

It doesn't look good for North Stream 2


reuters.com/article/us-germany-gas-nord-stream-2/germany-denies-nord-stream-2-pipeline-waiver-of-eu-rules-idUSKBN22R1B3

Germany's energy regulator on Friday declined to grant a waiver of European Union gas directives to the operators of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, dealing a fresh blow to the project to carry gas from Russia to Germany under the Baltic Sea....


For me personally definitely!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Feeding? What feeding???


What's smart about that? Free to make treaties on their own with Mr. "Make America great again?"

The smart Euros know that they are stronger together...the only ones profiting from disunited european countries would be Trump and Xi!

The moment the US breaks up into 50 sovereign states we can discuss again what a smart move that will be for the Americans...not to mention that the US better starts taking care of their own "crumbling" right now! You don't look so good...

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


East Germans have always big fans of the US Army in Germany, believe me! They would even had wished for their occupation zone a bit bigger..

And bevor Trump there was Obama...a true love story with the Germans...and I can remember Clinton playing his saxophon at the Brandenburger Tor! And who could forget cold war hero Reagan or Kennedy and his famous speech in Berlin...

That the EU is working now on it's own defence is a reaction of Trump wanting to go it "alone" and becoming hostile to the EU....but he will be gone after another 4 years at most...so..

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


You mean till you, with the help of a real big power shovel, dig out the whole of Poland and transport it to somewhere else with nicer neighbours? ;)

...and why are we all up now at this ungodly hour???

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


So...Poland is no longer the defender of Europe but the mole?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


The traditional China got drowned in rivers of blood....

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Erm...honest question here.....what do you think China is about????

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Then why don't you treat it as the treasure it is?

Your...our....ancestors have already hunted through it...our people and nations have been born and are grown in it's shadows....it's as much part of our european soul as famous stones and bricks!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


No...that's not the point!

I repeat: you begrudge that the EU want Poland to take better care of that treasure in it's borders as it belongs to our all heritage! And yes, that is an interference, but a toothless one, as there is no army being able to guard these old trees from destruction. An interference which should not be needed in the first place at all!

And at the same time you prefer the chinese rule because they don't give a sh'it about Europe and it's heritages!

Of course they would not say a word if Poland would raze that forest down tomorrow....but that doesn't make them friends of Poland or truly interested in the well being of Europe, quite the contrary!

THAT IS MY POINT!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


That primeval forest has been there long before the polish nation came into existence...your borders encompassing it are totally accidentally...

You begrudge the EU that it cares about such an important european heritage and prefer the Chinese who don't give a sh'it!

I could understand that point of view better if you wouldn't at the same time be famous on this board for lamenting the downfall of european culture, of the soul of Europe itself, all the time.

It doesn't add up...either you are a proud European and because of that prefer the european culture and respect it's history and with that of course want to preserve it's unique and ancient heritages....or you don't!

How you can support the destruction of such an age old heritage and also an agressive, powerful, far away empire who sees Europe only as a rival it want's to best and subdue and at the same time blaming poor, hapless immigrants for the destruction of Europe is absolutely mind boggling!

No muslim Ali can do to Europe what you polish tree logger and chinese Xi are trying to do!

What the f*uck is wrong with you???

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


If you destroy one of the last ancient heritages in Europe you should really shut upt about the newly build mosques in european cities...it's nothing else, even worse.

No ISIS dschihadist bomber can do to Europe what you are just supporting!

Nobody can rebuild a primeval forest, when it's gone it's gone!


Well....maybe you will be become China's newest province when you lick their boots only shiny enough...


Then what is your problem? You like commies...you prefer to be dictated...but why does it have to be the Chinese?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

I would really like to say something like: "Okay...then leave and peg your future to the communists in Peking instead to work together with your european brethren to the best of Europe, we will see how that will pan out for you!"

But frankly I like and respect Poland to much for that...it would be like watching a deadly car crash with indifference or worse, cheering the driver on!

PS: Nobody should have to tell Poland to not log their primeval forest, a unique and ancient european heritage. And no, of couse the Chinese won't care about that....but you should!!!

For all that you constantly talk about threatenend Europe by foreigners you really don't give a sh'it, don't you...

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Sure...I can see it....Poland says and does what it pleases and Peking only nods smiling to that! The totally equal partner with the totally same voting rights! :)

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


PS: Instead to live in the past and fearing the resurgence of old Prussia you should really look further to the East for the new danger.

And now tell me, who would stand a better chance against this chinese communist economic juggernaut? A European Union? Or Poland alone (or Germany alone for that matter)?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


You forget East Germany and the freeze of decades behind the Iron Curtain...we all met the modern world in 1989 and found out our industries weren't competitive anymore...you can't blame the EU for that!

And China is overtaking Germany with their cheap mass production...Germany too lost alot of jobs and companies to cheap and cheaper Asia. The famous german automobile industry took heavy blows in the recent years...add to hat the phasing out of fossiles and the structural changes had already be enormous and will continue to do so...also for Germany. Our future as industrial powerhouse is in no way secured or granted!

We all have to reinvent ourselves...the EU isn't to blame for any of it, but it can help!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


....it could even be said that Poland fully integrated in the EU (also the contrary to what Spike wants) would be much more successful in building alliances, in furthering their causes...playing the diplomatic high game of back rubs (when I rub your back you will rub mine)...networking, influencing...

Meaning Poland could develop into a power player, becoming part of the "core" itself, now that Britain left a gap.

The reasons Spike wants the EU destroyed for for would vanish...Poland could make the EU work for it....but only as fully committed and smart member.

Hmmm....what an interesting conundrum! :)


Now that was a bad example....

There is deindustrialization because of the globalization (jobs and firms leave for cheaper places) and because of modernization (phasing out of coal) and happened everywhere.

Alot of EU funds go into these regions hit worst because of this "Strukturwandel" (structural change), as we Germans call it...just think about the once famous german steel and coal region, the Ruhr Area.

These regions have to rebuild itself now that their main industries are gone, that's happening everywhere.

What in the hell makes you think Poland would master these difficult changes better without the billions of EU funds???

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


What self-defense? The fight against the billions of EU funds and the access to the biggest world market with a gazillion of potential customers for polish products?

The brave resistance against the refugees Poland had been forced to take? How many by now?

And how is your alliance building with other conservative EU members coming along? You would need them anyhow after the EU is dead and gone....

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

That's why I want Poland outside of the EU structures because I firmly believe that our country can flourish in a competitive open and global market of free exchange of goods and services.

Okay....I believe you. You want the best for Poland! That's a totally worthy goal...

In the end Poles have to decide about that...not me!

But you should stop wanting to destroy the whole EU in the process...because for alot of countries the membership in the EU is the best for their nations. Wanting to destroy it for so many others only to better your own nation is sh'itty and you should not expect any sympathy for that!

Anyhow I believe the EU is to big to fail....it is in need of reforms and probably always will, but these also can only be made with the tempo the many disagreeing members allow.

Because it's NOT a dictatorial super state with a strong (german) Führer!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


No, of course not! Poland could leave and lose the whole power it gets from having the same voting power like...say...Germany or France. I very much doubt Poland would be as influential outside of the EU as inside...

And for the "suboptimal results" only Poland is responsible for them. And frankly, if you can't make it in the EU you won't make it anywhere!

But it is as even you admit...you need a union of some kind to have any form of influence. But your vision of a union is fully compatible with your own political leaning and ideas and values (and only yours) and hence is a dead birth. Also in this new union you will be forced to make compromises...and it isn't set in stone that Poland will be it's top dog either.

This new union of yours only smells of roses because it's a fantasy...the actual existing EU on the other hand is the dirty nitty real smelly thing...it won't get any better!

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Poland can try to help to build this federation right now (like Germany is preferring a decentralized federation to a centralist super state).

There is no guarantee that the newly build EU will be to your tastes either! Because it's build on compromises, all (okay without the left and right extremists) political leanings need to find a common ground.

When you always stomp with your feet and threaten to leave when things don't go your way you won't be happy in any union whatsoever...

Your best course of action would be to take what you already have (a firm seat at the same table with everybody else) and try to make the EU work for you! You won't get a better chance to do that than from the inside.

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Yeah....but how exactly?

In a union consisting of 27 so widely different members there will always be discussions and disagreements...but I don't see the end of it.

Maybe the end of the EURO as it is now (and the EURO has definitely serveral flaws which need a make over)....but the EURO isn't the EU and otherwise the EU is like the UEFA or the IOC or even the European Broadcasting Union (think Eurovision Song Contest)....everybody grumbles and gripes about, but being part of it is better than being out of it (even after getting zero points for all your hard work and money, heh:).

Sure there may be this country or another which will leave for one political reason or another but I really don't see the whole of the EU "end" as you seem to wish, especially as the queue of interested new members is still much longer. I might maybe believe it when I see UEFA or the IOC getting razed to the ground.

But even when that happens...countries will sit together afterwards and build another UEFA or EU, this time better than before...they will at least try!

There are really very few countries who don't need nor want unions to support each other...most of them you don't want to have in your union either!

I think that the process of erosion and deconstruction of the EU could be steered in desired direction of voluntary economic cooperation between nation states of Europe.

That's what the EU is for! :)

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


I wonder how that would come to pass....

Will there be a session by the commission who all parties declare to part ways at an agreed set date??? :)

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]


Astounding, isn't it? As nothing did more to polarize the Germans than what happened in 2015, it changed the whole country and it's political landscape.

But back then everybody really was happy with Merkel's decision? No disagreements? What was wrong with them?