News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]

And for those of us that can't read Polish, Polonius is repeating the same lines found in the PiS-controlled media.

Fortunately, he's also completely wrong. There are no incentives to enlarge the crowd - the only incentive is to put a stop to PiS trying to destroy democracy.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]


Not true. For instance, there's two separate protests in Poznań today, and there's a very big protest planned outside Jarosław Kaczyński's house on December 13th. I know your game - you're trying to downplay the situation, but the reality is that the numbers are growing on the street.

I would be there too, if it wasn't for the smog :(


It's not a "tiny minority" at all.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]


Yes, this is one of the huge differences between American and Polish constitutional theory. The American one was (from memory - I studied this!) written deliberately like that so that the individual states would agree to it, as otherwise it was likely that it would be rejected by the more confederal-minded states. But the Polish one learnt from that mistake and so many things are very clear and unambiguous. It's also a matter of the American one evolving from common law while the Polish one evolved from civil law.

I wish I could understand why "Legal Eagle" is trying to apply American concepts to the Polish constitution, though.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]


That concept doesn't exist in Polish constitutional theory, as it's an American concept. The Constitutional Tribunal exists to protect the Constitution, not to act in any way as a branch of government. This is enshrined in law.


That simply doesn't apply here. For a start, the United States Constitution doesn't have anything about decisions being final, whereas the Polish Constitution does. It is simply not possible under the law of Poland to disobey the orders of the Constitutional Tribunal, for a start - hence why the Council of Europe are now getting involved.


Nice personal attack, but as far as the law is concerned, the President is now in breach of the Constitution. Voters have nothing to do with it.


They certainly did start it. All they had to do was to leave the case to the TK, who in accordance with the law, threw out two of the appointed judges and confirmed the appointment of the three by the previous Sejm. PiS would then have been free to appoint two judges as they were entitled, and we would've avoided a serious constitutional crisis.

Now, do try and avoid applying American concepts to Polish constitutional theory.


Indeed, the latest polls show that PiS are down to 32% already - so they've lost nearly 6% of the vote in just a month.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]

Rather we're just amused that PiS are appointing members of the PZPR to the highest court in the land.

As I said, child learns at dinner parties with father and comrades.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]


I think you're really struggling with the Constitution. It's nothing unusual, given that your President is also struggling with it - but the facts are very clear. The TK exists to settle disputes, and it is empowered to rule as to whether the actions of the Sejm were legal.


I understand exactly the issue involved. PiS are desperate for absolute power (as they've made very clear), and the only block on that power is the TK. So they need to control it too in order to exercise absolute power over Poland. If they fail, then PiS will have a TK made up of a majority of opposition-appointed judges which will put the brakes on any attempt to institute unconstitutional measures. If they succeed now, then from June 2017, they will have a majority on the TK and will be able to do what they want without regards to what the Constitution says.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]


No, it isn't. There is no provision in law for a different decision to be made by different judges. Article 190 of the Constitution makes it clear that judgements of the TK are final.


The TK's ruling yesterday is binding on Duda - he is obliged to swear in the judges immediately.

Duda refusing to swear in the judges is extraordinary and without precedent.

Either way, the decision is final - he cannot ignore what the TK says.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]


If the judges that should be sworn in by Duda are sworn in, then the balance of power remains the same until the 2019 election. This is exactly why Duda won't do it - it's the last obstacle between PiS and absolute power.


Incorrect. The case has already been decided upon by the Constitutional Tribunal, and Duda has an immediate obligation to swear in the new judges.There is no possibility of obtaining a different result - the decision has been made and is legally binding.


He certainly is worried, given that he completely failed to address the issue.

As for the two new judges, the TK will rule on the 9th as to whether he was legally allowed to do so. It's quite likely that they will agree that he could, but they won't change the balance of power. It's also highly likely that they will rule that the decision of PiS to try and appoint 3 other judges is unconstitutional.


Ironside, what part of the Constitution would you like sent to you?

It doesn't matter what you think the TK was doing, the Constitution makes it clear that the judgements must be respected.

If you don't respect that, you should give up your Polish citizenship because you're obviously the worst sort of traitor.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]


No. Once they hear the complaint and deliver a judgement, that's it. The Constitution is crystal clear on this.


There's no dispute. Legally, three judges must be sworn into office "without delay" by the President, while the other two appointed by PiS are awaiting the decision of the TK on the 9th December.


There's no possibility of "changing results". The decision of the Constitutional Tribunal is final and must be respected. Duda is obliged to follow the Constitution, and his failure to do so means that he's now in breach of the Constitution.


Alas, that was a consequence of compromise. However, an impartial court would have probably come to the same judgement.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]

One also wonders what their obsession is with former Party men in general. Maybe it's a case of "better the devil you know", or in this case "better the devil that used to come to your house for dinner".

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]

Just seen. Yep, he published information about the election during the electoral silence. Just yet another PiS-appointed criminal and certainly one for the PiS and crime thread.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]


Worth pointing out that it was the PZPR that first started the "special privileges for miners" that they demand these days.

Anyway, this has little to do with the issue that Duda is now openly defying the Constitutional Tribunal and hence is acting in opposition to the Constitution.

Well, well, well.

It transpires that Henryk Cioch, one of the PiS candidates to the Constitutional Tribunal was a member of the PZPR.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]


Well, when it's all controlled by PiS anyway, it's not a surprise that they just repeat the same narrative.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]


From memory, nothing comparable has happened since Jaruzelski's imposition of martial law. No-one has ever openly defied the TK before, and the view of most legal experts is that it's surreal that someone should even think that it's possible to do so given how clear and unambiguous the Constitution is on the matter.


I don't think he's going to be able to handle it, agreed. The response was so poor and showed that he doesn't know what to do, hence why his speech seemed to mainly consist of "We will break the constitution because we can".

If he resigns, the Marshal of the Sejm becomes Acting President for up to 60 days.


I think he knows what he's doing, but you can see that he has absolutely no conviction in his words.

I'm just amused that people like Ironside cry so much about Communism and yet support PiS in using anti democratic methods against the State.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]

Latest news : Duda spoke to the country, but it looks like he's made a complete mess of things. He hasn't referred to the decision today, only that he took the oaths yesterday because it "reflected the will of the Sejm". Furthermore, his PhD "promotor" has spoken out against his actions, saying that it's unacceptable and that he has brought shame upon his old law department.

It looks to me like Duda is lost. He can't follow the Constitutional Tribunal's ruling without upsetting PiS and their supporters, but if he fails to follow the judgement, then he will have openly broken the Constitution - which will set him up for being humiliated in the future after he can no longer hide behind the Presidency. I bet he won't sleep very well tonight.

Trying to sum up the situation for any foreigners that might be curious about what is going on :

Today, the Constitutional Tribunal (TK) ruled that the election of three judges to the TK by the previous Sejm was lawful. They also ruled that the election of two judges was unlawful.

The TK also ruled that President Duda is obliged to take the vows of the three legally appointed judges "immediately, without delay" - which he failed to do so and still hasn't done so at the time of writing. He is obliged to follow the the rulings of the Constitutional Tribunal.

Quoting from the Polish Constitution :


Essentially, we have a constitutional crisis on our hands. No-one has ever defied the Constitutional Tribunal before, and the quoted articles above make it crystal clear that there's no legal possibility of doing so. If Duda doesn't receive the oath from the three legally appointed judges, then we have a very, very serious situation on our hands.

The President addressed the nation, stating clearly that he does not intend to derecognise the oath given by the three illegally appointed judges. What this means in practice is completely unclear.

Finally, December 9th - the TK will rule on whether the recent law by PiS annulling the appointments of the three now-legally appointed judges is lawful. If (as expected) - they rule that PiS only had the power to appoint 2 judges (in accordance with today's decision), it becomes an outright fight between the Constitutional Tribunal and the government. Legally, the government are wrong - but can they be forced to accept the decision of the Constitutional Tribunal?

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]


Bloody hell.

No, they really can't. What kind of person are you to even suggest that the Constitutional Tribunal should just be ignored?

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]


Not much, probably. The TK has ruined his plan, but Duda has no real choice - he's obliged to follow their ruling and swear the three PO-appointed judges in immediately. They've made it clear that he has no discretion over the matter and that he's obliged to follow the law.

As for Kaczyński, I suspect he's going to spend 4 years attacking and smearing the judges by any means possible. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if PiSTV and other media outlets start reporting unbelievable lies about the judges.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]

Phew.

The Constitutional Tribunal has declared that three of the judges appointed by the previous parliament were lawfully appointed to their position (as the term of the previous judges expired during the last Sejm), while the other two were not lawfully appointed. They've also ruled that Duda was/is obliged to take their oath immediately and that any other interpretation is unlawful.

I think we can all breathe now. As far as I can count, PiS will have a maximum of 6 on the Constitutional Tribunal, ensuring that they will have to respect the Constitution for the duration of their government.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]


Why are you quoting Ziobro?

Fortunately, the Constitutional Tribunal will probably rule that 3 of the judges must be appointed and that PiS will only have 2.

News / Throwing away the constitution in Poland? [626]


Pretty much. The saving grace is that the provinces hold significant amounts of power, and the opposition isn't as weak as some PiS voters think it is. People are already on the streets, and the crucial thing is that it's a very non-partisan movement.


PiS have never respected the rule of law. By appointing a PZPR prosecutor to a leading role, it's clear that they have no real respect for law beyond the law that they themselves introduce. They behaved in exactly the same way between 2005-2007 - and like we all said, history will repeat itself as soon as Kaczyński gets near power.


Wrong. Article 131, paragraph 2 makes it clear.


Therefore, it was automatic.

Article 131, Paragraph 1 -


This makes it very clear that it refers to the President being incapacitated, which is not the same as death.

Just counted - from what I can see, the Constitutional Tribunal still has a majority (until the 19th December 2016) of pro-Opposition members.

Are we about to see a real constitutional crisis if the Tribunal throws out the PiS laws?

News / Poland's PiS party members and crime [346]


You've interviewed him, Polonius?

Out of interest, is he as charismatic as he appears to be in the media?

News / Poland's PiS party members and crime [346]


Don't you remember how he said that he was discriminated against because he was never imprisoned? :D I still wonder why he's surrounding himself with so many criminals though.

News / Poland's PiS party members and crime [346]

Yes, it's quite remarkable how many people that PiS appointed have had some history with the law. Certainly, the "law" part in "Law and Justice" seems to refer more to their familiarity with the legal process as a defendant.

News / Poland's PiS party members and crime [346]


What's interesting is that when you look at what PiS allegedly hate, they've got plenty of them in their own party.

- A President that defrauded the taxpayer? Check.
- A criminal in charge of the security services? Check.
- A commie-era prosecutor and loyal Party man in a position responsible for human rights? Check.

And so on.

Classifieds / Random Classifieds Ads Poland [261]

Thomas, send me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll pass your details on to a trusted lawyer I know.

News / Poland's PiS party members and crime [346]

Well, let's look at successful countries. You'll find that there's always a neutral civil service behind their success - and that many positions of importance are held by people who are loyal to the country and not to the party. It's commonly said that the one thing holding Poland back is this lack of an objective civil service - people at all levels of government are being hired and dismissed not because of their capabilities, but rather their political allegiances. It's a stupid way to do things.

Imagine, just imagine if PiS had declared that there would be open recruitment processes for all the jobs that they control, and that the recruitment process would be conducted by experts from the private sector? Their approval ratings would go through the roof, and PO would be left utterly helpless as they couldn't argue that PiS were about nepotism. Sadly, PiS have just followed the same old path, which means that when the government next changes, we have to suffer more upheaval and trouble.

Look at your own civil service Polonius - isn't it something to be proud of? Your country works for the benefit of the country, not for short term individuals that will be here today and gone tomorrow.

Oh, this is just getting better and better with every passing day. I thought PiS wouldn't be so unbelievably retarded in the first few months, but...


wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114871,19259261,nastepca-prezesa-arimr-jest-oskarzony-o-korupcje-i-oszustwo.html

So yet again, we can see that PiS and crime are going together very well indeed.

Hopefully Duda will pardon this one as well, just to confirm his guilt.

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


Which is about as dumb as it gets. Family is meaningless if the person is a law-breaking prick.

Fortunately, in Poland, it's changing - people aren't afraid to call the police, especially for things such as drink driving.

News / Poland's post-election political scene [4080]

You do realise that PiS are thinking about getting rid of the OFE funds full stop?

It seems very much from the commentary that I've read that the OFE fund idea was a great idea in the late 90's to help capitalise Polish banks, but makes absolutely no sense in 2015 to transfer huge sums from ZUS to the OFE funds.

Wouldn't bother me anyway, all my contributions go to ZUS.

News / Poland's PiS party members and crime [346]


Hahahaha. Please, Ironside, you're killing me :D Kaczyński even filled Duda's chancellery with his loyalists.

News / Poland's post-election political scene [4080]

That sounds like you're making excuses already for PiS not fulfilling their electoral promises.

Interestingly, I read today that PO taking away some of the money from the OFE funds will possibly enable PiS to lower the retirement age.