Lyzko
10 Jun 2022
Lyzko
10 Jun 2022
Po polsku / Staram się polepszać się po polsku :) [85]
Slicznie dziekjue, pawku, to bardzo milo Twojej stroni! Ale cwiczenie czyni mistrza, czy nie?
Slicznie dziekjue, pawku, to bardzo milo Twojej stroni! Ale cwiczenie czyni mistrza, czy nie?
Lyzko
10 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
You're smart, pawian. I was nearly fooled once by somebody in Vienna, introduced to me as a Brit.
She tried to fool me with songs from G & S such as "Yum-Yum's Song" from the Mikado etc.
It nearly worked until it came down to loose horsing around together, the acid test of the native Anglophone; she failed the test:-)
Even when I lived in Berlin, I never pretended I was German. Oh, it took people nearly an eternity to figure out that I was from the States, but in the end of course, I never failed to blow my cover LOL
You're smart, pawian. I was nearly fooled once by somebody in Vienna, introduced to me as a Brit.
She tried to fool me with songs from G & S such as "Yum-Yum's Song" from the Mikado etc.
It nearly worked until it came down to loose horsing around together, the acid test of the native Anglophone; she failed the test:-)
Even when I lived in Berlin, I never pretended I was German. Oh, it took people nearly an eternity to figure out that I was from the States, but in the end of course, I never failed to blow my cover LOL
Lyzko
10 Jun 2022
Po polsku / Staram się polepszać się po polsku :) [85]
No Rysku, dziekuje za pomoc!
Przy zdaniu trzecim musze w przyszlosci prosto pisac, tu masz racje:-)
No Rysku, dziekuje za pomoc!
Przy zdaniu trzecim musze w przyszlosci prosto pisac, tu masz racje:-)
Lyzko
10 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
In my opinion, it's the humor thing that get's 'em every time!
The issue of utter and complete indistinguishability from an English native speaker ALWAYS falls short when the English is too absolutely correct, both grammatically, lexically, even idiomatically.
Native speakers NEVER nail it all the time because they're actually speaking, not imitating their own language.
English, especially the US variety, is normally little else than one big slangy joke on itself, with precious little "correct" in casual aka natural expression.
Foreign mimic of English: Take a glimpse at our card and once you've decided, feel free....
Native speaker with zero interference: Once you know whatcha want, just give a holler....
In my opinion, it's the humor thing that get's 'em every time!
The issue of utter and complete indistinguishability from an English native speaker ALWAYS falls short when the English is too absolutely correct, both grammatically, lexically, even idiomatically.
Native speakers NEVER nail it all the time because they're actually speaking, not imitating their own language.
English, especially the US variety, is normally little else than one big slangy joke on itself, with precious little "correct" in casual aka natural expression.
Foreign mimic of English: Take a glimpse at our card and once you've decided, feel free....
Native speaker with zero interference: Once you know whatcha want, just give a holler....
Lyzko
9 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
To downshift for some of us, (Rich, this means you LOL) all I meant was that NO language, and this includes of course machine or artificial languages, is the "best" or "the perfect" or, heaven knows, the so-called "easiest" language in the world!
If ease of "communication" is the gold standard here against which all languages must be somehow judged, English loses hands down, buddy boy!! It's a no brainer, dude. Look, English spelling's a nightmare, pronunciation or phonemic vs, graphemic correlation's a livin' mess, and the language is sooooo bleedin' pluracentric that even the term "English" has to be qualified in order to make any sense whatsoever.
There's Americanlish, English, Franglish, Canadlish, Indlish, Poglish, Germlish, Russlish and so forth and so on, I couldn't even begin to keep count.
French possibly makes some sense as a candidate for a world language. Chinese is ONLY spoken by Chinese native speakers since they never colonized and Spanish never quite achieved either the cache or the renown she felt she deserved.
However, back at last to the thread topic, and a fascinating one at that! Authentic bilingualism is, although not quite a myth, almost a sort of chimera, since no two people whom I've met, are absolutely 100% at home in more than one language.
I grew up hearing German first, English second. Yet, English, not German was the priniciple language of instruction until I was seventeen, and I only lived in Germany for just shy of a year. That was a long time ago, even if I'd been back to Germany practically twice a year from '85-'01.
Those here or elsewhere who claim they are bilingual and are always seeking to prove it, often teasing those who conversely claim to know foreign languages, probably are quicker on the GoogleTranslate key:-) Even the top spies who can infiltrate into another country and "fool" the people for a stretch, in nearly every case trip themselves up at some point.
To downshift for some of us, (Rich, this means you LOL) all I meant was that NO language, and this includes of course machine or artificial languages, is the "best" or "the perfect" or, heaven knows, the so-called "easiest" language in the world!
If ease of "communication" is the gold standard here against which all languages must be somehow judged, English loses hands down, buddy boy!! It's a no brainer, dude. Look, English spelling's a nightmare, pronunciation or phonemic vs, graphemic correlation's a livin' mess, and the language is sooooo bleedin' pluracentric that even the term "English" has to be qualified in order to make any sense whatsoever.
There's Americanlish, English, Franglish, Canadlish, Indlish, Poglish, Germlish, Russlish and so forth and so on, I couldn't even begin to keep count.
French possibly makes some sense as a candidate for a world language. Chinese is ONLY spoken by Chinese native speakers since they never colonized and Spanish never quite achieved either the cache or the renown she felt she deserved.
However, back at last to the thread topic, and a fascinating one at that! Authentic bilingualism is, although not quite a myth, almost a sort of chimera, since no two people whom I've met, are absolutely 100% at home in more than one language.
I grew up hearing German first, English second. Yet, English, not German was the priniciple language of instruction until I was seventeen, and I only lived in Germany for just shy of a year. That was a long time ago, even if I'd been back to Germany practically twice a year from '85-'01.
Those here or elsewhere who claim they are bilingual and are always seeking to prove it, often teasing those who conversely claim to know foreign languages, probably are quicker on the GoogleTranslate key:-) Even the top spies who can infiltrate into another country and "fool" the people for a stretch, in nearly every case trip themselves up at some point.
Lyzko
9 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
Merely turn on your brain........slowly, this time.
Merely turn on your brain........slowly, this time.
Lyzko
9 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
In an ethnocentric or Anglocentric universe, you might well be correct, Rich! However, not even in a perfect world, we all see English through the prism of our non-English mother tongue, refracted through the most imperfect lense of the language of those who do not call English their primary tongue.
In an ethnocentric or Anglocentric universe, you might well be correct, Rich! However, not even in a perfect world, we all see English through the prism of our non-English mother tongue, refracted through the most imperfect lense of the language of those who do not call English their primary tongue.
Lyzko
9 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
Not only an unfair fight, but I'm curious as to exactly what Miloslaw means by "English won". What precisely was the victory then? Does he mean a Pyrrhic victory of sorts, or instead that nearly half the world recognizes English, where-as most other language lack the identical instantaneous "face" recognition?
I believe that there can be no winners and no losers in such a fictive battle, but rather that whichever language becomes the most widely used, always runs the eternal risk of becoming the most ABused as well, as has been the case of contemporary English:-)
Not only an unfair fight, but I'm curious as to exactly what Miloslaw means by "English won". What precisely was the victory then? Does he mean a Pyrrhic victory of sorts, or instead that nearly half the world recognizes English, where-as most other language lack the identical instantaneous "face" recognition?
I believe that there can be no winners and no losers in such a fictive battle, but rather that whichever language becomes the most widely used, always runs the eternal risk of becoming the most ABused as well, as has been the case of contemporary English:-)
Lyzko
9 Jun 2022
Po polsku / Staram się polepszać się po polsku :) [85]
Tak jest, Ziem! To musilo byc, co zrozumialem.
Tak jest, Ziem! To musilo byc, co zrozumialem.
Lyzko
8 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
Makes sense though, doesn't it.
Makes sense though, doesn't it.
Lyzko
8 Jun 2022
Lyzko
8 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
With certain exception though, e.g "le shopping", "le weekend" etc., they've pretty much succeeded:-)
With certain exception though, e.g "le shopping", "le weekend" etc., they've pretty much succeeded:-)
Lyzko
8 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
You bet!
Maybe one of a number of reasons that a vast number of Europeans, particularly from the Northern countries, appear to know English with such seeming ease and facility is that they are taught the opposite way from the methods we've both come to know and hate.
Oh, I'll be the first to add my well-known laments, complaints about the way certain Europeans communicate in English. However anyone with ears and a working brain knows it's a damned sight better than the average native Anglophone could negotiate their way around French, German, Norwegian, Italian etc. much less Russian or Polish LOL
And it's not simply a matter of the old saw, "Who needs Norwegian since everyone needs English?" either! It's a question of methodology and application; theirs works, ours doesn't!!
For example, I already knew tons more German than I would have before winding up in Prof. Koerner's college freshman German class.
The teaching was poor, yet somehow I made out on the Dean's List since I'd had a foundations of basic words and sounds from my German-speaking nanny as a child. No mystery there.
You bet!
Maybe one of a number of reasons that a vast number of Europeans, particularly from the Northern countries, appear to know English with such seeming ease and facility is that they are taught the opposite way from the methods we've both come to know and hate.
Oh, I'll be the first to add my well-known laments, complaints about the way certain Europeans communicate in English. However anyone with ears and a working brain knows it's a damned sight better than the average native Anglophone could negotiate their way around French, German, Norwegian, Italian etc. much less Russian or Polish LOL
And it's not simply a matter of the old saw, "Who needs Norwegian since everyone needs English?" either! It's a question of methodology and application; theirs works, ours doesn't!!
For example, I already knew tons more German than I would have before winding up in Prof. Koerner's college freshman German class.
The teaching was poor, yet somehow I made out on the Dean's List since I'd had a foundations of basic words and sounds from my German-speaking nanny as a child. No mystery there.
Lyzko
8 Jun 2022
Lyzko
8 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
Tell me about it, jon!
Sometimes I feel many language instructors are their own worst enemies.
They often whine and moan about the pupils not learning, meanwhile they kill them with mind-numbing grammar rote rot, stifling any curious learning impulse there is.
Don't you agree?
Tell me about it, jon!
Sometimes I feel many language instructors are their own worst enemies.
They often whine and moan about the pupils not learning, meanwhile they kill them with mind-numbing grammar rote rot, stifling any curious learning impulse there is.
Don't you agree?
Lyzko
8 Jun 2022
Po polsku / Staram się polepszać się po polsku :) [85]
Co roznica miedzy "Do uslug" ws."Do sluzenia"?
Gdy kiedys bylem na krotkim pobycie w Polsce, siedzialem pewnego popoludnia w restauracjii a kelner przyniosl mi obiad. Mowilem mu, "Dziekuje panu!" i on odpowiedzial "Do sluzenia!", nie "Do uslug!"
Czy co znaczy samo?
Co roznica miedzy "Do uslug" ws."Do sluzenia"?
Gdy kiedys bylem na krotkim pobycie w Polsce, siedzialem pewnego popoludnia w restauracjii a kelner przyniosl mi obiad. Mowilem mu, "Dziekuje panu!" i on odpowiedzial "Do sluzenia!", nie "Do uslug!"
Czy co znaczy samo?
Lyzko
8 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
Sapir-Whorf was popular for a bit, same for Chomsky.
Pinker though became a sort of "hot young Turk" of linguistics, so to speak, oh, around twenty-five years ago or more.
Eons ago, a well-known French linguist claimed his children, who grew up on the French/German border near Alsace-Lorraine, were literally "speaking" German with German-speaking classmates after school, although the linguist's children had allegedly never studied the language either at home or at in school! Saussure, I believe it was.
Motto of the story is that kids are proverbial sponges and frequently have little need, if any, for institutional aids when picking up a language simultaneously with their mother tongue.
Sapir-Whorf was popular for a bit, same for Chomsky.
Pinker though became a sort of "hot young Turk" of linguistics, so to speak, oh, around twenty-five years ago or more.
Eons ago, a well-known French linguist claimed his children, who grew up on the French/German border near Alsace-Lorraine, were literally "speaking" German with German-speaking classmates after school, although the linguist's children had allegedly never studied the language either at home or at in school! Saussure, I believe it was.
Motto of the story is that kids are proverbial sponges and frequently have little need, if any, for institutional aids when picking up a language simultaneously with their mother tongue.
Lyzko
7 Jun 2022
Off-Topic / Best posters [886]
Noticed my name's conspicuously absent from the list.
Guess I'm too much of a gadfly, not to mention general pain in the butt LOL
Noticed my name's conspicuously absent from the list.
Guess I'm too much of a gadfly, not to mention general pain in the butt LOL
Lyzko
7 Jun 2022
Lyzko
7 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
Amen there, Maf!
Don't know how often on this very Forum, I've decried to distraction the number of Europeans encountered over the years claiming to be bilingual, yet speaking often atrocious English, like rapid-fire bubble gum chatter masquerading as culturally correct usage.
The actual "BI-linguals" I've met abroad are rare indeed.
Amen there, Maf!
Don't know how often on this very Forum, I've decried to distraction the number of Europeans encountered over the years claiming to be bilingual, yet speaking often atrocious English, like rapid-fire bubble gum chatter masquerading as culturally correct usage.
The actual "BI-linguals" I've met abroad are rare indeed.
Lyzko
7 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
Thanks, jon.
I'll go with Bloomfield's definition myself:-)
Ck. out too the Canadian linguist Prof. Steven Pinkert, in case you're not entirely familiar with his work.
He talks about native speakers of different languages as being, quite literally, "circuited" differently from each other, which he mentions at length in "The Language Instinct".
Thanks, jon.
I'll go with Bloomfield's definition myself:-)
Ck. out too the Canadian linguist Prof. Steven Pinkert, in case you're not entirely familiar with his work.
He talks about native speakers of different languages as being, quite literally, "circuited" differently from each other, which he mentions at length in "The Language Instinct".
Lyzko
7 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
jon, I'd even qualify further by saying that the natural ability to seamlessly think as well as function within the target language context, that is, of the second language acquired vs. the need to translate from the source language or mother tongue, is what distinguishes an authentic native bilingual speaker from someone who learned the language even in young adulthood!
For instance, I have never claimed and would never claim to be a bilingual in Polish, regardless of reading fluency, as I acquired it comparatively late in my development as opposed to German which was the first language I heard although schooled in English from roughly first grade until college:-)
While I could negotiate my way through daily situations with monolingual Polish speakers during my all too brief sojourn in Poland, the language continued and continues to control me rather I controlling it.
In addition, I'm aware of myriad errors in daily usage which was never the case with German.
jon, I'd even qualify further by saying that the natural ability to seamlessly think as well as function within the target language context, that is, of the second language acquired vs. the need to translate from the source language or mother tongue, is what distinguishes an authentic native bilingual speaker from someone who learned the language even in young adulthood!
For instance, I have never claimed and would never claim to be a bilingual in Polish, regardless of reading fluency, as I acquired it comparatively late in my development as opposed to German which was the first language I heard although schooled in English from roughly first grade until college:-)
While I could negotiate my way through daily situations with monolingual Polish speakers during my all too brief sojourn in Poland, the language continued and continues to control me rather I controlling it.
In addition, I'm aware of myriad errors in daily usage which was never the case with German.
Lyzko
7 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
I only "acquired" Polish long after the age of childhood, more like end of my 20's. Furthermore, I'm certainly not a true bilingual, therefore again, I'd scarcely be a qualified participant in your study, unfortunately.
I only "acquired" Polish long after the age of childhood, more like end of my 20's. Furthermore, I'm certainly not a true bilingual, therefore again, I'd scarcely be a qualified participant in your study, unfortunately.
Lyzko
7 Jun 2022
Lyzko
6 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
No, I'm not suspicious in the least, Paw.
How come? Ought I be? Had the study applied, I might have offered to participate.
No, I'm not suspicious in the least, Paw.
How come? Ought I be? Had the study applied, I might have offered to participate.
Lyzko
6 Jun 2022
Language / A study on how bilingual Polish-English speakers think [86]
Sounds interesting, Lenka.
I once participated in a similar study conducted by the German General Consulate in New York for Americans such as myself born in the US with German as quasi-mother tongue.
The researchers subjected me to a light battery of questions regarding how I react to various cross-cultural stimuli in addition to the usual questions as to in which language I dream etc.
Figure it's the same here, although the criteria obviously wouldn't apply in my case:-)
Sounds interesting, Lenka.
I once participated in a similar study conducted by the German General Consulate in New York for Americans such as myself born in the US with German as quasi-mother tongue.
The researchers subjected me to a light battery of questions regarding how I react to various cross-cultural stimuli in addition to the usual questions as to in which language I dream etc.
Figure it's the same here, although the criteria obviously wouldn't apply in my case:-)
Lyzko
4 Jun 2022
News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]
.....and the opposite of brilliance is stupidity, RIch ol' boy LOL
.....and the opposite of brilliance is stupidity, RIch ol' boy LOL
Lyzko
2 Jun 2022
News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]
An embryo, for the BAZILLIONTH time, friends, is indeed a living, yet not (yet) a conscious, being! Satisfied?
Except to the boneheaded Fundamentalists of whatever religious stripe, the exact moment when life begins is to be sure one of the oldest questions extant, and is likely to be for as long as the human race exists.
As my college philosophy prof (a former broker, incidentallyLOL) once put it, "Always seek the company of those who seek the truth; run from those who've found it!"
Furthermore, interesting that the US punishes just reg'lar folks for every infraction under the sun, from parking violations to non-payment of rent, yet almost never for those inhuman violations which also occur every day, such as taking away a woman's right over her own body, the patient's basic right to be treated both courteously as well as honestly by her primary care physician, and a the day-to-day incivilities or indignities to which many of us are subjected on a normal basis.
The latter go unpunished since nearly everyone can be paid off these days somehow.
In former times, such was not so rampantly the case.
An embryo, for the BAZILLIONTH time, friends, is indeed a living, yet not (yet) a conscious, being! Satisfied?
Except to the boneheaded Fundamentalists of whatever religious stripe, the exact moment when life begins is to be sure one of the oldest questions extant, and is likely to be for as long as the human race exists.
As my college philosophy prof (a former broker, incidentallyLOL) once put it, "Always seek the company of those who seek the truth; run from those who've found it!"
Furthermore, interesting that the US punishes just reg'lar folks for every infraction under the sun, from parking violations to non-payment of rent, yet almost never for those inhuman violations which also occur every day, such as taking away a woman's right over her own body, the patient's basic right to be treated both courteously as well as honestly by her primary care physician, and a the day-to-day incivilities or indignities to which many of us are subjected on a normal basis.
The latter go unpunished since nearly everyone can be paid off these days somehow.
In former times, such was not so rampantly the case.
Lyzko
1 Jun 2022
News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2986]
And by your illlogic, you'd punish a young couple, guilty of nothing other than the poor judgement of callow youth?! What have you solved other than to turn a presumably non-felon into a criminal but criminalizing their errors instead of allowing them to learn from them?
And by your illlogic, you'd punish a young couple, guilty of nothing other than the poor judgement of callow youth?! What have you solved other than to turn a presumably non-felon into a criminal but criminalizing their errors instead of allowing them to learn from them?