Life / Energy - Poland [71]


I don't think we are, because questions of labor - as our discussion shows - are intrinsic to questions of energy and energy transitions. What happened to the UK, will inevitably have to happen to Poland. Therefore, we're on subject!

I appreciate the sentiment, but feel you are not giving yourself an honest account of the costs. It's not simply a few points of an increase on your tax bill, which you may be willing to suffer, but real lost opportunities. I actually googled a $ amount right now, it's for the period 2013-2018, and it's $8B that Poland had spent on direct subsidies and grants to the coal industry (including electrical price subsidies, because Poland pays outsize through EU carbon trading scheme). This number does not include the pensions which will have to funded unto the coal miner's death. Can you imagine what this amount of subsides could do in other parts of the country's budget like healthcare and education? Those same coal miners, instead of spending checks for increased consumption of consumer goods, will be receiving better healthcare and more opportunities to retrain. Thousands or tens of thousands of Poles could be sent to the best universities abroad with full scholarships from the Polish state, as many other countries in the world do. The infrastructure that is necessary for the future energy transition could start being built. Instead, Poland supports an enormous dying industry and makes commitments to pay for its workers decades ahead. The young deserve investment just as the old, if not more. I don't like to talk in platitudes like this, but you started.

I also want to make sure you understand I am not arguing against coal-powered generation, but only against mining and the miners. The coal is of higher quality and cheaper when imported from Russia, and supposedly on par when considering Australia or SA. Just as British miners spread out across the world after the death of mining in Britain, so will Polish engineers spread out across myriad sites around the world to share the experience gained over centuries of mining in Poland. Polish universities will continue to have great geology depts and produce great geologists and engineers.

Life / Energy - Poland [71]


Regardless of how efficient British coal mining was, or how good the quality of the coking and thermal coal produced, the burden of funding those pension schemes combined with the early retirement age was unparalleled when compared to other similar operations in other parts of the world. In other words, you are making my argument for me, because why would something be in need of constant support if it provides a higher quality product at a lower cost? Some crucial piece of the puzzle seems to be missing here.

I too am wary of an off-topic warning, so let me reiterate that Poland owes it coal miners only as much as it owes the members of any other industry which has become uneconomical to support - training and support in requalifying themselves for work in other sectors of the economy. I understand that for those over 45 this may be a tall order, and will mean that they will fall to the wayside of society. So be it. The money spent on supporting them in good status, is money that could go to a young engineer, or teacher in increased wages, and I hope there is no debate as to who is able to contribute more value to society - a retired coal miner, or a young teacher.

Life / Energy - Poland [71]

My point was that the miners' demands had made the entities they worked for fundamentally uneconomical. For what it's worth, most of the mines had closed on Atlee's, Macmillan's, and Wilson's watch - while Thatcher simply put that last nail in the coffin. It's not a Tory/Labor thing, but simply coal miner unions getting out of control, but perhaps I am revealing my prejudice here.

People around the world seem to romanticize coal workers, whether it's the UK in the 1970s, Ukraine and Poland now, or Appalachia in the United States. Why is it that this group of people deserves all the grants and subsidies over a metallurgist, merchant sailor, or oil rig operator whose lives are just as fraught with danger and disease, and whose contribution to our collective well being is not less?

Life / Energy - Poland [71]


...and you do not make the connection between this and the actions of the Grantham Vampire?

Life / Energy - Poland [71]


Well, it's hard to mine underwater (that is not to say this is not done).

Life / Energy - Poland [71]


It's a good thing if they can be replenished. Sometimes and in some places, the recovery rates can far exceed recharge rates. Another issue entirely, is making an entire aquifer unusable through its contamination. Negligent disposal of wastewater from coal mining operations can lead to this water penetrating into the water table. This water is highly acidic, and often contains heavy metals such as arsenic and lead. If this happens, it won't matter if it's recharging, since it will not be usable for any human activity.

Life / Energy - Poland [71]


You are correct. Those working on the face will have nothing to do at a hydro plant except perhaps pour the concrete during construction. A modern hydro plant operates practically without people, with the great majority of the people involved being high level professionals working at remote control sites.

Life / Energy - Poland [71]


There is groundwater everywhere, not just inside mines, and that reserve is a finite quantity that needs to be managed wisely. Once water is used, it needs to dumped or treated. This part of the process can "spoil" more water than was used in the direct extraction and processing stage through negligent disposal that contaminates waterways and subsoil aquifers.

Life / Energy - Poland [71]


You couldn't be more wrong - coal mining involves the use of colossal amounts of water. Here's a link:
sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S136481521000201X

TLDR: About a ton of water is needed to mine a ton of coal. In a typical operation, 250 liters of this would be freshwater, while the rest is recirculated. During the actual mining process water is needed to cool the cutting surfaces of mining equipment, and for preventing coal dust fires. During the processing stage water is again needed to manage coal dust as its crushed and ground. Often, the coal is then transported as a water-coal slurry by pipeline for final processing. Further amounts of water are needed for the general cooling and maintenance of equipment, as well as for providing the needs of the miners themselves.

Real Estate / Getting a mortgage loan with girlfriend [18]


I'm sure talking about how she may f*ck you in the future has really strengthened your relationship against future hardships. You sound like a swell fellow.

Language / Cultural disparities shown through Polish and English languages [195]


What is the point of your comments?

Off-Topic / Using Super Glue on a open wound/cut on the head [49]

@Cargo pants
What the actual f*ck? Tell this retard that sealing a wound that deep with store bought super glue will 100% lead to an infection. Any pocket of space that is left under the glue after this wonderful procedure will fill with fluid and get infected, if it is not already. Step one is to clean the wound thoroughly, then seal it. Super glue is not even close to being appropriate for a wound of that depth and width, in addition to being toxic and not sterile.

Life / Where do the wealthy class live in Warsaw? [32]


You get rich in Poland by excelling in education/sport/commerce, hard work, financial prudence, and favorable external conditions (i.e. luck) just like anywhere else in the world. These kind of questions really p!ss me off to no end. Just like Johnny Reb's troll question about what defines wealth for PF posters. It pissed me off so much I wanted to show him, using statistics, that there is a whole small-city's-worth of individuals in Poland that are far richer than his redneck standard of jet skis surrounded by "hardbodies".

People that think that successful Eastern Europeans, and poles specifically, all made their wealth through sex trafficking, money laundering, online fraud etc can all go and collectively f#ck themselves. Been dealing with this attitude from the western world's collective dregs (losers who don't get a "hello's"- worth of recognition at home in the west), who decided to descend on the East as some Wild West frontier beginning from the 1990s, and I find this tone worst than racist.

Life / Where do the wealthy class live in Warsaw? [32]

Not entirely on-topic, but this generational wealth accumulation idea is precisely the reason why the West should stop freaking out about China. Going by GDP numbers alone, it may seem to an observer that China is close to overtaking or has already overtaken the United States (if one goes by purchasing power rather than nominal dollar to dollar comparisons). But GDP is only a measure of output, not wealth. Aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines are paid for not with GDP but wealth. In this regard America is at least twice the size of China, and the lead is actually INCREASING. American national wealth in 2019 was approximately $118 trillion, whereas China's was $64 trillion. This lead was at least $12 trillion larger than in 2011.

China is still a very poor country, and will remain so for a long time. Building steel plants and aluminum smelters may look good in aggregate GDP numbers, but if they are not useful and productive they do not add to wealth.

Life / Where do the wealthy class live in Warsaw? [32]

The definition capgemini used is, as you said, inclusive of primary residence and not just liquid assets. I did not find any information for the $5-10MM+ cohort you mentioned, but I did find something for UNHNWis (Ultra High Net Worth Individual) in Poland from Credit Suisse for 2020. UNHNWis are defined as $30MM+. It appears that there are only about a thousand of them in Poland, whereas their number in the States is 100k. Basically there's a hundred times more of them. Hence, the absence of millionaire towns in Poland. I think this is just a function of time. Wealth is built over generations. World wars, revolutions, transitions between different economic systems has prevented Poles from accumulating.

Life / Energy - Poland [71]

Truly, there is an inverse relationship between the time people spend discussing a subject and it's complexity/importance. If it's another retarded discussion between JohnnyReb and Maf, it'll make a thread a 1,000 posts long. If it's something material to actual business life in Poland, or anything that matters to real people - opinions dry up. Some popular sociologist once created a model for this, based on an imagined example of discussions around the construction of a new nuclear power plant. The less intellectually taxing the discussion - the more opinions - since everyone wants to "contribute" with their two cents worth of ****, while the more complex it is the more deafening the silence.

Life / Energy - Poland [71]

One note - there is, at this time, no thorium fuel used in the commercial nuclear industry anywhere in the world.

Otherwise, you've answered a lot of the questions yourself here. My personal belief is that the West (at large), and Poland specifically, are being completely delusional at this moment in trying to completely diversify away from hydrocarbons. The weather over Poland means wind turbines and solar panels will never be able to cover 100% of needs, and that traditional generation will continue to have an important role in the overall energy mix. For this, investment needs to happen at an appropriate pace, but at the moment it seems the climate camp has the upper hand and western corporations are being shamed by governments and shareholders into scrapping exploration and extraction CAPEX. All this means is a shifting of power to Russia and the Middle East, where people still have enough common sense to continue developing these resources.

Life / The Pole, as an example of a perfect Russophobe, in a spherical vacuum [42]


What the hell man? I like that you think it's insulting to accuse Poles of Russophobia (I agree). However, I gave Poland more compliments than I did to Russia, and the purpose of my post was to show that there is in fact grudging respect. I didn't expect this, and was remarking on it. The original question was a joke to begin with - essentially are Polish people the ones that have the worst opinion of Russians amongst all the peoples of the world? I do think that the answer to this is affirmative. It's a curious fact, when you consider that there is an active Russian military presence in Ukraine, a frozen conflict in Moldova, similar issues in Georgia, etc, etc. I haven't recently checked opinion polls, but I remember that despite those issues sentiment regarding Russia remains split in those countries, while Poland is pretty monolithically anti-Russian.

Life / The Pole, as an example of a perfect Russophobe, in a spherical vacuum [42]


Seriously? I don't think you have to be biased against Poles to be able to state that they are generally dismissive of all things Russian. This is true across the political spectrum. You don't have to look for a Smolensk-conspiracy nut to find a Russophobe. This forum is good proof, that the perception of Russia is of a country that has zero to offer the world except oil and gas, political assassinations, and nuclear sabre rattling. The general sentiment is that Europe would do quite well if Russia just disappeared off the map.

Life / The Pole, as an example of a perfect Russophobe, in a spherical vacuum [42]

I read the article on Lurkmore.to

Here's a link for others interested: lurkmore.to/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%BA%D0%B8

I don't think Poles get an unfair treatment, all things being said. The article is written much more respectfully than those for some other nationalities. Specifically it treats honestly the periods when Poland was "on top", and acknowledges the fact of Poland's more ancient provenance - and this surprised me. Poland's relative geographic misfortune is also given a decent treatment. All in all, I think the article actually reveals some things about Russian attitudes towards Poland, which I was not aware of. In the same way that Poles are dismissive of all things Russian, I assumed it would be the same in the other direction. Instead, there seems to be a grudging respect to the "number 2" country in the Slavic world, with allowances for the fact that it was not always number 2. Very surprised!

Edit:

Response to Pawian: To my own regret - yes - I did imagine this scene in my mind. It made me laugh even harder.

Life / The Pole, as an example of a perfect Russophobe, in a spherical vacuum [42]

@pawian


Fortunately/unfortunately - one has not witnessed such a thing personally. But it's hard to say what happens behind closed doors.

Life / Who's the best looking (and acting/singing) celebrity in Poland? [32]

@pawian
What a beautiful man.

Life / Do you know these characters from Polish movies? [223]

Is this some kind of Polish Baron Munchausen, or some Pan Kleks title when he time travels?

History / Heritage of partitions still present in Poland [107]

I don't know.

Pavian wrote: "...next one was Russian with medium level of advancement and the poorest Austrian where people actually starved to death." I understood he means that Russian lands were more developed, and thus people that vote there have more progressive views (albeit, still PiS voters), than those in Austro-Hungarian lands, where people literally starved.

You're probably right. It did seem strange to me too. Not only because of an anti-Russian bias, but because of demographics too. The population density in the west, and rate of urbanization had always been higher. Historically, and at present, urban dwellers are more liberal in their views than their rural cousins.

History / Heritage of partitions still present in Poland [107]


From Mr. Pawian above.

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]

Guys, let's not have the mod shut down our thread.

How do you feel about Ukraine's direction at present? Georgia? Moldova? As Poles, do you feel any commonality with these peoples - as Christians, as Europeans, as Democrats?

Where does Russia fit into this picture? Will we ever see a Europe stretching from Lisbon to Vladivostok, as Putin sometimes says? Is Russia destined to always play the role of the spoiler and the playground bully? Can it be brought into the fold through something like German Ost-Politik.

So many more questions. Let's not get derailed with discussions of Nationalism and interventions in the Middle East.

History / Heritage of partitions still present in Poland [107]

The fact that Russian lands are better developed than Austro-Hungarian ones is certainly puzzling.

Completely off-topic, but the part of China that experienced the greatest growth '79 to roughly '00 was the former Russian, and then Japanese-occupied Manchuria. Similarly, Korea turned into the Tiger it is today, in large part due to 40 years of Japanese occupation, however unpleasant it is to admit to modern day Koreans.

History / Heritage of partitions still present in Poland [107]

Fascinating. Thanks very much for this.

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]


Damn, that sentence is straight from Putin's speechwriter, if you just substitute the word "Ukraine" for "Poland and the Baltics", and "missed" for "used". Props for calling it like it is.

Russian officials always reference informal agreements between Gorbachev and Bush Sr. regarding no further enlargement of NATO to the East following the fall of the Wall. The admittance of former Eastern Bloc countries is thus interpreted as the West exploiting Russia's temporary weakness.

This Russian line of thinking is usually dismissed out of hand by Washington and Brussels as nothing other than Moscow's paranoia. Thus, the official Western line for why NATO didn't just close shop following German reunification (like the Warsaw Pact did), is not because it is inherently an anti-Russian alliance, but because the organization's mandate had transformed with the times to be able to answer to new challenges. This is probably how... even though NATO did not take part in a single military operation throughout the entire duration of the Cold War, it has since 1991 intervened in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Libya. New mandate. New realities.

History / Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO [116]


Sorry, no, but I see how what I wrote is confusing (mind you, a lot of Ukrainians do think Russia will fall apart any day now). I just wanted to use the collapse of the Iron Curtain, and the disintegration of the USSR as spectacular illustrations from recent history of how it's dangerous to dismiss certain hypotheticals as totally unlikely. Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO is just such a hypothetical - seemingly impossible, but given past volatility not improbable.

To Ukrainian minds it's pretty preposterous to say that they have to wait decades more before being allowed into the club. Poland joined NATO in 1999, and the EU in 2004. Being 20 years behind Poland is a fair enough number to Ukrainians, I think, though they would have liked things to happen even faster of course. If they were told they were going to be 50 years behind Poland, that would certainly be very hard for them to swallow. One of the tropes you hear most often from politicians and laymen that lament the current state of affairs on UKR tv is - "in 1991 Ukraine had 50 million people, a territory larger than France, and an economy larger than Poland's". That is, it's immensely embarrassing to Ukrainians how Poland has leapfrogged them in development and now plays a much weightier role in Europe. If they need to wait 50 years, they just might do an Erdogan and go back to Russia/China.

Ukrainian politicians talk every single day about how they are the "Shield on Europe's Eastern Frontier", "the only thing between Europe and the Horde", and all sorts of other points about how the Euro-Atlantic community basically owes Ukraine a big one for doing all the heavy lifting in combating Russian malign influence. They definitely expect to be let into NATO soon, not decades from now. When and if the realization that that is not happening sinks in, there'll be a nasty, nasty backlash.