News / Polish Lithuanian Diplomatic War? At last. [533]


I have no idea of what you are talking about.

News / Polish Lithuanian Diplomatic War? At last. [533]


To some extant, it was a bit like the Union between England and Scotland. The fact remains though, they got very generous terms and the vast majority of the Lithuanian nobility (the only people that counted in those days) were in favor. It is no coincidence that some of the last representatives of the Radziwills reside in Poland, and not Lithuania. It is a peasant's republic.

And the Poland and Russia thing is hardly comparable. I don't remember Poland acquiescing and abandoning its language and culture in favor of Russian culture and language. If they had, i would be to embarrassed to admit to being a Pole, as I find Russia embarrassing and semi-civillised.

News / Polish Lithuanian Diplomatic War? At last. [533]

Let's be brutally frank about this, all the high up Lithuanians converted to Polish culture a long time ago, and could not be bothered using the Lithuanian language-to them it was a language spoken by peasants. So today's Lithuania is a peasant's republic, full of resentful peasants that need to be cut down a peg.

Their hostility is stupid and shrill, all the result of an inferiority complex.

History / Lusatian-Sarmatic obsession of Poles [153]

It is a nice obsession, there was even an exhibition on this topic. Sarmatism: A Dream of Power

krakowpost.com/article/1940

Law / The best job in the World - Polish farmer. [50]

I wonder, is there some possibility of converting what use to be a farming property into some sort of a recreational area? In the future i might find myself in the position of inheriting some land around Podhale, about 7Km from Zakopane, i wonder what can be done with it, apart from selling of course.

USA, Canada / Can a Canadian Female Drive in Poland?? [30]

Can females drive?

Law / Are banks from Poland safe? [42]

Let me answer it this way, I am not sure where you are from but my guess would be that Poland's banks are safer. They did not need any bailing out like some of the other better known banking institutions around the world during the crisis.

I've just noticed that you're from Ireland, in this case they are most definitely safer!

Love / Sexual appetites of Polki (in the 21st century) [31]

OK dream time is over, time to get back to reality.

Genealogy / Polish DNA? Poles have the most genes in a group includes Balts, Macedonians and Greeks. [264]

Oh dear, it seems that the Serbs will have to be left out of the future Slavic union(:

I hope Crow does not find it too hard to cope with. lol.

Life / Famous / Iconic Polish Women [48]

Amathyst
Oh well, they vote the way their husband tells them:)

Only kidding, it is an achievement.

Life / Are Poles typically nasty people? [42]

I think it is because they tend not to suffer fools gladly, take the hint? Or should i wait a week?

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]

This debate is pointless, it has deliberately been set up to antagonize.

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [297]

Well why bother when the tide is against you? Canute and all that, i believe he was half Polish:)

History / Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious? [196]


Harry is an Australian and I am sure he is proud of the fact:)


Britain never lies of course, that is why they chose not to refer to Katyn as a Soviet crime up until the nineties.


I take it that you don't agree, can you name anybody better?......

Of course you can't that means that they were.


No that is a lie Nathan, you seem to be quite good at it.


wasn't Goebbles it was Himmler and if memeory serves me right he was refering to his own kids.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


No it is not, you are an extremely perceptive individual, ever thought of teaching geography?

Nevertheless many African countries find themselves in the same situation especially those formally government by the British Empire. I should know I lived in a few of them.

aphrodisiac: therefore, regardless of the fact that indeed your test is founded on the false premise, you would still be able to draw conclusions, which would amount to speculations. I am not biting on this one:)

of course you are not,you would rather engage in silly semantics and avoid the issue at all cost. I've noticed you failed to answer the other questions, would that be because they are irrefutable?

That is what I mean by having an answer to my question without you even answering it:)

you know my father's family has a very typically Ukrainian surname and that's because his ancestors came from the Ukraine. and I 'am very grateful that they saw fit to get Polonised, and thank goodness for the Polish eastern civilizing mission.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Pardon that was Frederick William II of Prussia not the Great.

Another good example of Prussian policy was the tax on the vistula trade, a policy which enriched the Prussians and made the Poles poorer.

Further more was not the bad administration you talk about the result of nobility primarily of Ukrainian blood who only spoke Polish? the Poles treated the Ukrainians very well, they even made a Ukrainian prince Michal Korybut Wisniowiecki their king, you would be well acquainted with the deeds of his father.

Was not the instability in the Ukraine the result of the activities of the Cossacks, who are lionized in Ukrainian culture?

Was not the Ukraine freed from the Tatar yoke by Lithuania which later formed the same country with the Poles?

did not the Poles fight valiantly to stave of the Ottoman menace for the Ukraine?

Aren't you being just a little bit mean spirited and unfair, perhaps you should learn to understand a little more and condemn a little less:)

further more:

Did not Poland try after its resurrection to hold the Bolsheviks at bay from the Ukraine, despite the wayward inclination of the local population?

Did not Poland lead by example through solidarity?

Is not Poland now fighting to bring Ukraine back into the fold, championing its membership prospects in the EU

Valiantly trying to sever the apron strings linking it to Russia and hoping to bring it into NATO, despite the painfully slow attempts in the Ukraine to seize the initiative

Remember the Bucharest summit when Poland tried against the inclinations of Germany and opposition of Russia to fight Ukraine's corner and entry into NATO?

And all you can respond with is pettiness, Poland like a mother holding out its hand to its wayward Ukrainian child, turning the other cheek and all it gets is your snide comments. And yet she persists because a mother never abandons its child however wayward it might be:)


Or did I understand you right you think a Ukrainian of Polish nationality has less rights than a Ukrainian living in the Ukraine?

If so i would suggest you are painfully unaware of the political situation of your countryman.

It seems you fail the African test:)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

OK I am glad you made some effort in answering the question and I will endeavor to answer yours Consecutively, I kind of knew you would bring this up.

1. German interference in Poland is why Poland finds itself in the situation that it does, you would remember that when they undertook to divide Poland, Poland after the constitution of the 3 May had arguably the most enlightened system of government in Europe. This means that it was divided by nations with a relatively backward system of government reliant on autocracy. one only needs to read what Frederick the Great thought on would happen to Poland if the constitution was unopposed.

So the Prussian policy was to deliberately keep Poles and Poland as poor as possible, why should the Poles submit themselves to that?

So the Ukrainian analysis does not apply to this situation, As the Ukraine was in no such position.

2. You mentioned the Ukrainians in Galicia, you would know that that was the result of the poor administrative capacity of the Austro-Hungarian empire, under the Polish constitution all Poles would have similar rights including the peasants. As you know Poland was the only country in Europe in which the nobility voluntarily abdicated some of their rights in favor of the common folk-according to Edmund Burke

So it seems that we finally have an answer, you would rather your people lived in Poverty and oppression rather than belong to the Polish state simply because your pride stands in the way.

It is the same with Africa whose leaders would like to see the deaths of hundreds of their own people just to see one white man humiliated.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Wellbeing should be the deciding factor in this argument, I am a firm believer in the prosperity of all Poles and Ukrainians:)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


OK final question, it is what I will call the African test, as Africa finds itself most often in this category.

If your people ie. people of Ukrainian heritage would find themselves on Polish territory, like some do, or if the Polish borders were somewhat further east than they are now, would you disagree with the proposition that they would have a slightly higher standard of living, greater opportunities and more political freedom than people in the Ukraine today.

If you agree, would you begrudge them this fact, would you prefer that they had less political freedom and less opportunity? And would your what I would describe as 'African pride-pride driven by emotion and not rationality' prevent you from celebrating that they find themselves in Poland and not the Ukraine?

I notice that there is an increasingly greater amount of Ukrainians looking for work in Poland, I notice that you find yourself in Poland so the proposition of greater well being would be quite hard to refute.

Try to answer the questions directly do not divert to other topics, I do not ask the question out of malice I ask it because it drives my whole debate, I believe in the greater well being of all people regardless of nationality, if you choose not to answer the questions I will have the answers to my questions regardless. So for instance does the Ukrainian minority in Poland have a higher standard of living than their people in the Ukraine?

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


By all means please go to sleep, the collective intelligence of this debate will increase considerably:)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

Song about Wołyn in Ukrainian and Polish. Not very pleasant to watch though
...

Poles form eastern Poland trying to maintain their culture.
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Apparently one of the reasons for the migration of some Poles to the east, was because those who won the Virtuti Militari were promised a farm in the east. I just recently read that in a book, presumably at the expense of the locals.

Akcja Wisla

youtube.com/watch?v=7WODze79XRw&feature=fvw

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


Yes but their descendants spoke Polish Einstein!

Anyhow let sleeping dogs lie. Relations are very good right now, Poland is batting for Ukrainian entry into the EU, Kwasniewski mediated between the two parties during the Orange Revolution on Kuchma's request etc.

A clip of the reception of the Ukrainian president in Poland

youtube.com/watch?v=7EKaS_--kU0

and, the land of Ukraine as perceived by some Poles long ago, more like the eastern southern part from the time of the golden horde onwards-incidentally the Ukraine was freed from the Tatar yoke by Lithuania at the battle of the Blue waters 1362

youtube.com/watch?v=mBlprdXi1GU

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


I am sure they would, but it's not as if they had much of a choice is it?

Your example of Russia and Germany is hardly equivalent is it know? And we are talking about the export of civilization and not barbarity. So whilst the Poles brought some suffering to the Ukrainians after centuries of relative amiability, lets not forget it's not as though the Poles forced the Ukrainian nobility to speak Polish all those centuries ago.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


I am not arguing about the rights and wrongs of the issue, I am merely describing the situation as it was, and my point is that yes, a Polish occupation would have been Infinitely preferable.

The second point is that a bigger Poland would have been beneficial not only to the Poles but to everyone, think about it this way at present by EU standards Poland is a middle/big country. If Poland were a really big country, if say Stalin was a bit more generous after the war than it could accommodate the EU's surplus population. So overcrowded countries like the UK, Netherlands and Germany could settle their surplus population to Poland. As for the Ukrainians their problem is not overpopulation, it is under populated as a country, therefore a little slice of lviv Oblast would make 0 difference.

And lets face it, the Ukraine is not in the EU and is not a very attractive destination at the moment.

Quite importantly people would also have a sufficient amount of space to exercise their horses):



Some of these great buildings would be restored through EU funds as well:)

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


what do I care about the above?

Ever thought about an idea of pan-germanium- because the English and Germans are so alike. (it is being laid on with a trowel, so you should recognize it by now)

You argument is full of hypotheticals, and completely divorced form the actual reality of the Ukraine.

You are completely ignoring my arguments which are grounded in reality, and that is how i Know that you are conceding the debate.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


Well that is quite a poor argument considering that the Ukraine wasn't independent, and even in those days any intelligent politician would realize that the end of Polish rule meant Russian rule. It was a straight choice, they would have known this very well after all it took the Poles to dislodge the soviets from Kiev in the past.

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]

This thread is far too hysterical for my liking, so let us just stick to the facts.

fact 1: Poland did Polonise the Ukrainians, destoyed orthodx churches etc.

Fact 2: If the Ukrainians in Poland's eastern area did not belong to the Polish sate, they would would have belonged to a Russified Ukrainian state going through purges and starvation. And if you had a chance to reflect on this situation from a historical perspective, and were of right and rational mind and had the choice, there would be no way you would choose to stay in the Russian sphere of influence.

Fact 3: The Ukrainian reaction during the war was most defiantly out of proportion and Extremely cruel.

Life / POLISH MYTHS - let's debunk or prove them! [140]

Yes i do, when did this myth come about?

Because during the period in question nationality was very weak, and amongst the nobility practically nonexistent, they all spoke Latin in any case.

clip about Germans in Poland.

youtube.com/watch?v=stLdXx4HqCI

Mind you i do recall some king executing people, mostly Germans who did not speak the language at one stage because he taught them to be spies.

Life / POLISH MYTHS - let's debunk or prove them! [140]

continual Polish German antipathy.-Myth

it was not always in existence, disregarding the 20th century there was a bit of amenity during some historical periods between the two. Poles were more often in conflict with the Russians.

take German settlement fro example, the other day i came across this group, the Walddeutsche, who settled in what is now the Subcarpathian Voivodeship.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walddeutsche

History / Destruction of Ukrainian churches in Poland in 1938 [289]


No it was not, it was recreating its nation big difference!

quote=MareGaea]Poland was just becoming a nation in the 30's [/quote]

No it was not, it was recreating its nation big difference!

[quote=aphrodisiac]possible, Poland suddenly wanted to be mono- cultural and that was part of the bigger plan.
MareGaea:
Btw: Aphro is not Ukrainian, but Polish, just like you.
nope, I am as Ukrainian as one can get. I grew up in Poland though.[/q

No not really, they just wanted all sections of society to be loyal to the state, some did not want to be.

BTW do Ukrainians generally believe that they were better off with the Russians, or in hindsight do they think that sticking to the Poles might have been a better idea?

Incidentally a good history of the Ukraine by Hoffman, which covers the Polish issue.
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Here is an example of Polonisation
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Here is an example of Polonisation of Ukrainian children.
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