History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Finally, a neutral comment that has answered my intrinsic question. Appreciated and thanks for that, my friend. Your post pretty much sums up what I wanted to hear.

>^..^<

M-G (is making a new tune for the first time since weeks!)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


This is about the WW2 years, not the years after WW2. You guys always mix that up. Stop mixing that up. This is about the period 1939-1944/45 ('44 for PL, '45 for NL). What happened afterwards, happened afterwards and cannot be used as explanation for earlier events.

You give reasons or explanations that happened after the events. Sounds a bit weird, huh?

>^..^<

M-G (nobody still has answered the intrinsical question)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


This for example.

I do understand English, probably better than you do. It freaking doesn't matter how long Jews lived in PL, even if it were a million years. It's irrelevant to the topic at hand.


Because that question has been asked over a dozen of times. Jews were simply not in a position to help other ppl, so putting that question forward is basically ignoring the fact that Jews could not help other ppl as they themselves were in the most hunted position during WW2. It also implies trying to get one's own plate clean.

Compare: "I saved the kid, and I saved the other kid as well." "yeah but, what did the kid to save you as a grown up?". It's exactly the same.

>^..^<

M-G (who would've thought that simply putting forward the fact that NL put nearly the same effort in saving the Jews as PL did, would meet such resistance)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]

You really didn't understand what I was saying. That is not a shame, only a few do, but it would be better if you said you didn't. Myself or other ppl here might just bother to explain to you what is obvious.


Where exactly do I state that it's anti-semitism?


Ah look! You're just crying because I showed that the Poles are not alone in their goodness towards Jews. Yes I did criticize the Jews. On plenty occasions. Read my response to that Peace flotilla thing. But, what does this alledged defending of Jews has to do that NL is very close to PL when it comes to saving Jews?

No matter what you say, it will only make me laugh. I have shown, by simply putting down the figures that the Poles were not the only ones who were kind to Jews. In fact, a little country down by the sea with roughly about 1/4 of the Polish population has only 1200 entries less in Yad Vashem than the glorious Poles who's entire life revolved about saving Jews and were in fact goodness itself towards Jews and got shamefully betrayed by those very same Jews who had the nerve to survive the Holocaust and had the guts to claim back their houses after they were taken over by the Poles. And besides that, we've seen how good Poles were towards Jews after the war.

haaretz.com/news/historian-threatens-to-reveal-polish-atrocities-against-jews-if-tried-for-slander-1.237256

foreignaffairs.com/articles/58254/abraham-brumberg/poles-and-jews

But I am sure you won't read these stories as it's kinda negative for your image of the Poles.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


You really didn't understand what I was saying, it shows.

PS: if you don't want to be in the defensive all the time, learn to accept that Poles are not a kind of mythical ppl. That is the problem with you posters here. You lose track of reality. I'm only here to remind you of that. And it works, as it shows.


I repeat, I have never heard of instances before where this happened.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

I repeat: yet another Polish myth debunked. We're nearly at the point when we will start considering the Poles as a normal ppl, With all their faults and mishaps, but also with all their good sides. Too bad that some on this forum cannot accept that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Just re-read this again. And then think about what you're actually saying. OF COURSE the risk for saving Jews was equally big in all the countries that were occupied by the Nazis. The Nazis had sth against the Jews, remember? The risk of helping a Jew was being killed yourself. And in most cases risking your family's life as well. Not only in Poland.

Why is is so hard for you and other Poles to accept that in other countries did their bit too, at the risk of their own life and that of their families as well? Do you really think that if the Nazi's captured you for helping a Jew, shot you in a prison, they would leave your family in peace? No way in cold hell, buddy.

It's like Stu says: you can only die once and in that respect the risk was in every country the same. Like I explained of often, the methods may have been different, but the endresult was the same.

But it's all too predictable. The number of Dutch in Yad Vashem is not that far distanced from that of the Poles. And they haven't also listed all Dutch who helped the Jews. Suddenly it seems like the Poles are not on a high pedestal all alone in that respect anymore. Everyone with a sense of fairness should be glad that so many ppl, not only from NL or PL, but from everywhere, were willing to risk their lives and that of their loved ones for the Jews. But yet everybody starts to rave and rant which proves that those who start ranting and raving feel their position somehow threatened. The position of Poland being the only country that suffered during WW2, the only country who's citizens risked their lives for helping Jews, in short, the only country who cared about their Jews. And that is what all these reactions are all about. Yet again a myth has been debunked and of course the reactions talk booklengths to prove this.


No, I cannot name another country where the Nazis actually left their weapons voluntarily to a resistance army. That resistance army must've been their favourite then, if you catch my drift.

>^..^<

M-G (doesn't know if Mythbusters is still on the Discovery Channel, but always loved to watch it)

Study / 90% of Poles have university degree? [57]

Agreed.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Study / 90% of Poles have university degree? [57]


Don't think so. If it were true, this would not look so good for the Polish university system. If just anybody can pass, what's the worth of an academic education? You would need a Master's in Geology just to clean the toilets in PL, and I haven't heard yet that this is the case. So it's very safe to assume that this is not true.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


I just finished shaving and am just about to turn in, when I saw this. You're getting a bit emotional again. Knowledge, I have knowledge. The knowledge of a little over 6000 Poles and nearly 5000 Dutch in the Yad Vashem. And that's a fact too. I know how the Germans treated PL, I know how they treated NL. But we are a much smaller country with a much smaller population. Yet we have nearly as much ppl in Yad Vashem as PL has. Those are all facts, my boy. I am not at all emotional about it.

I have recommended the book many times before, but it's a standard classic: Ashes in the wind by Jacques Presser. Read it and you will read all about the good sides of NL and also about the bad sides. Unlike some here, we don't deny our bad sides and that's a major difference. And you will see that it really didn't make any difference if you were excecuted in the city's prison (and this was really not summary, as you put it) and your family being shipped to a KZ to be gassed or worked to death or in any other way killed for helping Jews than when you and your family were killed on the spot for doing the same. Only difference is that they did it more covert in NL and other W-European countries, out of fear for the public outcry, but this doesn't make it less deadly. And by the way, these are all facts which you can find in Ashes in the wind, the standard work on the destruction of the Dutch Jewry in the Netherlands. Every History student in NL has to read this and so had I. And you are right, there are records about the German occupation of NL and PL and those of NL will tell you exactly what I just told you.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]

He was indeed :) But I'm gonna go have a shave and then off to the sack for a few hours sleep as I am working again, slowly, but surely, old M-G is on his way back. Back to the front. May the sjuge be with you :)

>^..^<

M-G (good night)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Let's not start about choices of words. I just use these words. That's all. If I were to clove out on your words, then I would get the impression you're either super angry or crying behing your keyboard. So, let's not start about choices of words.


I would say 175.000 ppl is a bit more than just "some".


Apparently you do, otherwise you wouldn't react like that. I never denied anything you say here. It's just in the eye of the beholder, you know. If a healthy critisism is explained as denying that Poland suffered, you really need to rethink your strategy, my friend.


If I'm such a moron, why then do you try to imitate me so often?

Again, nobody denies here that Poland suffered during WW2. Nobody. However, a healthy debate is not one of agreeing constantly with the whining about this. A healthy debate consists also of different opinions and critisism at times. But I know Poles have to get used to that. I the West we are used to critisism as part of a good debate. We don't feel attacked, like many Poles on here do, when critisised for failing to see the bad sides of one's own country. And every country had. NL has, PL, has, BE, DE and so on. But unlike the "debaters" on this forum, everybody accepts that. Why can't you? All occupied countries suffered. Some more than others, but bottomline is that everybody suffered. Learn to accept that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Oh btw, Ironside: if it's just facts, and nothing but cold facts, why then are you and a couple of others so emotional about it? I'm just presenting other facts. Facts that you may not like, but nevertheless facts. Not all facts glorify Poland, you know :)

>^..^<

M-G (bigger and meaner than ever)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]

They'd probably think you're me :)))

Edit: Shalom gajes Sokrates, Shalom gajes Jola, we are all brothers, come dance to Hava Nagheila with me. Grin.

:)

>^..^<

M-G (shalom)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]

I can see Seanus coming dressed up like that to the PF meeting with the likes of Sokrates, 1jola, Jarnowa and JoePilsudski present, would be an interesting confrontation.

:))

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]

2 things:

1. That beside the myth that NL was infested with SS-men, an awful lot of ppl helped the Jews as well, also with risk of their own lives, and the balance is therefore the same in other countries.

2. That some ppl here react exactly as expected when confronted that other countries did heroic things as well.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Opi rides again. Now off to bed, fake Pole.


Still only 1200 less than Poland in the Righteous among Nations list.

Yeah, Jola can only talk about how good Poland was and how bad the rest. He is of no worth to this forum.


I know that he writes that. I just wanted to point out that, although NL was infested with Nazis, according to some amateur historians like 1jola, they still have an awful high number of entries in Yad Vashem, the second highest in the world. But losers like 1jola cannot see things in perspective. That has been his biggest handicap so far.

>^..^<

M-G (who takes Jola serious nowadays?)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Also the Italian model. The Spanish and Portugese model were based on the Italian, which was already in place in 1922, long before the others and served as an example. Hungarian fascists didn't prosecute Jews until the Nazis occupied the country in 1944.

I don't deny that there were Polish heroes. I never have denied that. But don't forget that Dutch ppl also risked their lives while helping the Jews. It wasn't a Polish exclusive that ppl who harboured and helped the Jews got killed. And there are ALSO unknown Dutch heroes as well. That's what I meant with the absolute and relative figures. The Polish population was much bigger than the Dutch population yet the Dutch number in the Yad Vashem is a mere 1200 less than the Polish number. Plus Poland is and was a lot bigger than NL. So in absolute figures, yes, Poland was the most heroic country, yes, but in relative terms the Dutch were just as big, if not bigger. Poland had about 3.5 million Jews within her borders, 6000-something got rewarded in Yad Vashem for helping the Jews in PL. NL had about 140.000 Jews, 4000-something got rewarded in Yad Vashem for helping the Jews. That's relatively to the number of Jews a bigger number. I am not talking about the total number of deaths, but the number related to the number of Jews.


The total number of Dutch death was about 300.000, of which 104.000 Jews and 21000 Militairy deaths. That leaves grossly 175.000 civilian deaths and most of them were related to the helping of Jews. I would not call that "some". Poland had a population of grossly 4 times that from NL at the time. Not all of the Polish deaths were related to the helping of Jews.

Fact remains that Poland is number 1 on the Yad Vashem list and the Netherlands is number 2 with the difference between the number 1 and 2 much smaller than the difference between number 2 and the number 3, France, also a country much bigger in size and population than NL. I think this says sth about the helping of Jews in NL. Don't diminish that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Genealogy / Polish and Russian DNA? [52]

No, DNA is a bunch of stuff floating in the core of a cell. And it's wet out there. And spooky. It's a micro-organism eat micro-organism world. Don't go there.

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Not so very bizarre when you know that most of those fascist groups before WW2 were based more on Italy's example than on Germany's example. And the Italian fascist groups were, at least in those days not in favour of deporting and eliminating the Jews. Later on they adopted this, but imo that was more due to the "success" of the German Nazi party. It's important to keep in mind that fascist groups in other countries than Germany were originally based on the Italian/Spanish/Portugese model.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


No, you're not cruel, you're just ignorant, little coward.

>^..^<

M-G (now pls leave this forum, back to your stormfront buddies)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


Too much.



What exactly don't you understand about relative and absolute figures? PL had about 3 times a big population than NL had at the time. Yet they have only 1200 ppl more in Yad Vashem. I do respect the brave Poles who fought and died for their country, but not cowards like yourself who left the country when it was in need and came back when it's safe only to have the biggest mouth about Polish bravery. Better a living coward than a dead hero, huh?

Now off to bed again, you spoke two times, way too tiring for your 4 braincells. You need them to walk and shyte later on today, so they need some recovering.

>^..^<

M-G (maybe it's time that jolalala leaves this forum)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]


There you go, this is plain out bragging. And the line "resisted them somewhat" fits in that bragging perfectly. I'd suggest you read up on the "velvet glove - iron fist" approach; Nazi reluctantcy was gone after 29th of June 1940. It was for all ppl of all occupied territories equally dangerous to help Jews or to put up resistance. Dutch who kept Jews and were discovered were shot or otherwise killed as well; it only took a little longer. Since you can only be killed once, I would say it wasn't more dangerous for Poles to help Jews than it was for the Dutch or French or anybody else.

And it's like AJ says: it's not a dick measuring contest, but I think ppl here should acknowledge the efforts of all those brave ppl who risked their life against tremendous odds, not only in PL, but in all of occupied Europe; the risk was equally big for everybody, whether you were from Poland or from the Netherlands or somewhere else.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond [380]

Righteous Among Nations, a brief rundown:

1. Poland 6.195 members
2. the Netherlands 4.947 members
3. France 2.991 members
4. Ukraine 2.246 members
5. Belgium 1.476 members.

What do these numbers say? That Poland and the Netherlands delivered the most ppl that helped Jews throughout the war, hence should be regarded as most Jew-friendly nations during WW2. Any member of a Polish household holding a Jewish refugee was shot. Every Dutch household who held a Jewish refugee was either sent to a KZ and mostly killed there or shot, usually after a very short "trial". There are also 3 Irish who are member, 2 Brazilians and 1 Portugese. I know that many ppl on here brag about the fact that Poland has delivered most members, and it's true, but te difference with the Netherlands is not that big (not as big as the difference between Netherlands and France, for example) and given the fact that Poland and France had much bigger populations, I would say that PL deserves the status of most Jewish-friendly nation in absolute terms, while NL deserves that term in relative terms.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

News / SCHOOL GAMES END IN PREGNANCY IN A POLISH TOWN [49]

lol, stupid kids :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Food / Your all time favourite Polish Dishes! [108]

A good marinade for the chicken skewers I can give here, that's no big secret: take three tbl spoons of Soy sauce (better use Ketjap or Kecap as mentioned above), take one small red onion, 2 or 3 cloves of garlic (depending on your taste) and about 2 centimetres of gingerroot. Mince the onion, garlic and ginger in a foodblender and once minced, add the ketjap, 1/2 teaspoon of mild curry, cumin and paprika powder and the juice of half a lemon to it. Run the foodblender for a few seconds more just to mingle everything nicely and let it rest for 20 minutes. Dice in the meantime about a pound of chicken breast filet into dices of about a centimetre and put them in a bowl. Now scoop or pour the marinade from the foodblender and mix the chick with it until every dice is well covered. Put the bowl in the fridge for about 1 or 2 hours (better is one entire night, but if you don't have much time, an hour or two will do as well). After you put the bowl in the fridge, put a handfull of bamboo skewer sticks in a bowl of warm water and let them soak for an hour. This is to prevent them from breaking into nasty splinters when you put the chicken on them. Finally, pierce 3 or 4 chicken dice onto the sticks and grill them, turning them when the upper side is nicely brown. Should be done in about 10 to 15 minutes total. Eet smakelijk :)

NB, if the marinade is too "dry", add one more tbl spoon of Ketjap to it. I also forgot you have to add three teaspoons of sugar to it to counter any over-soury taste.

>^..^<

M-G (Eet Smakelijk, Smacznego (?), Bon Appetite, Selamat Makan)

Food / Your all time favourite Polish Dishes! [108]


No, a Polish girl here at the office is going to bring them because it's international cuisine day at work on Friday and everbody will bring a speciality from their home country. I will bring my special peanut sauce and chicken skewers, I am making that anyway on Thursday evening. If I have time I will also make a bowl of "Jewish" spaghetti, a recipe that I got from my grandmother. It's actually called different, but I never seem to remember its name, so I just call it "Jewish spaghetti". I don't want to brag, but my peanut sauce is delicious, at least that's what everybody says who ever tasted it :)


Hey! I like tomato sauce!

:)

>^..^<

M-G (yummy)

Food / Your all time favourite Polish Dishes! [108]

Hm, then you must be an exception; the first time I got them everybody looked very strange at me when I sincerely asked where the tomato sauce was. And ever since every Polish person who serves me pierogi stresses that they are not eaten with tomato sauce...I guess I somehow still have that "ravioli" idea in my head when I eat them.

>^..^<

M-G (I like pierogi though, not all fillings, but generally I do like them)

Food / Your all time favourite Polish Dishes! [108]

I will have homemade pierogy this Friday at work :)


We have them in NL too, we call them Wortebroodjes (Sausage buns)

>^..^<

M-G (still thinks it's somewhat strange that you don't get tomato sauce served with pierogi:) )

History / POLAND: EASTERN or CENTRAL European country? [1080]

No. Poland lies where she lies and that is the end of it. She is part of Europe in her own space. Nothing more, nothing less.

>^..^<

M-G (things can be so simple)

Love / Polish Women Versus Your Local Women ? [289]


While I respect ppl who don't want sex until marriage, I also think it's a concept that's not of this age anymore. What if ppl don't get married, but sign a partnership contract? They sleep in seperate bedrooms? Face it, the majority of nowadays' ppl have sex before (and after) marriage and there is nothing wrong with that. Everybody is their own person and if a person is an adult he/she should be able to do what they want themselves and if they decide to have sex, then that is ok. If they decide not to have sex, it's ok too. Mighty boring being in a relationship without sex, but so be it.

>^..^<

M-G (noticed that mostly there is sth wrong with women who only want sex after they've got married - usually they then want sex with the plumber or the milkman)

Genealogy / Jewish Roots of Poland [638]


Me too.


Maybe they "had to get married" if you know what I mean? :) With my parents it was like that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)