News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]


Then how do you explain the greed for the Euro-membership in these "poor" countries?

I tell you why, a financial union with Germany offers these countries money to the same terms as Germany!

A country like Greece could never dream of getting so easy so much money.....because investors trust Germany. They trust it's government and it's economical policies....that makes new credits cheap. Greece for itself would get fresh money only much harder and much less to much higher interests, because investors don't trust it on it's own at all.

But now, in a financial union with Germany, Greece can borrow to it's hearts content, as the investors know it's being underfunded by Germany.

Hell, before the Euro-membership Greece used still donkeys on their dusty roads! Their main export had been cheap laborers.

Greece had all the possibilites in the world to do something worthwhile with all the money it suddenly got access to...that it ended like it did you can't blame on Germany but on stupid greek governmental decisions...totally democratic of course.

Imagine Berlin balking at that, forcing better, more sound, economical decisions from Athens....can you imagine the outcry? "Nazis" would had been the very least of them!

So, what do you blame Germany for exactly?

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]

You keep repeating that, but when we discuss it I can always refute your arguments, even pinpoint mistakes and plain prejudices. Still you don't change your opinion in the slightest. You won't even try to see both sides!

I guess it's not really about economical facts with you....

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]

....you always do! :(

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]


Well...if you think so....I thought more along these lines:


As for shipping you need to have (and to maintain) lotsa ships, which is expensive...which is more than jungling numbers on a computer in a bank! :)


...which we wouldn't and couldn't fight anymore if we had a real union! :)
(The same way rich California can't fight transfers to potatoe-land Iowa)


Well...the US didn't start out any better....the differences between the settlers had been as strong as at home....different languages, religions and cultures...there had been lots of hostilities and even wars....to grow to Americans needed lotsa time!

Even today, the Latinos and other minorities are growing and with them their cultures and languages....still....they want to be (mainly) Americans!


And you can't blame that on the Germans....which have always been loyal tourists, loving spending their holiday-money in Greece. The country would be a lot worse off without it's german tourists!

Likewise the shipping...exporting Germany has no own merchant fleet to speak of and was always a bonafide customer of the greek shipping...no rivalries here!

Btw....it's not dead...it's alive and kicking:


safety4sea.com/greece-the-leader-in-global-merchant-fleet/

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]


What "service economy"? Their mainstay had been shipping, with one if not the biggest flotillas in Europe if not the world!


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_shipping

They don't have a service economy...whom would they serve? With what? Decades of bad economical decisions and a near non-existent bureaucracy led to them having barely any economy at all by now.


Oh please, not that bad old Krugman argument again!

Ever been on a real market? There you see stands besides stands and even more stands who all sell produce and fruits and what not...it's about quality and prices which gives customers the choice as it should be in a free market world. And mostly all stands earn their money!

It's not Germany's fault that Greece has been unable to come up with a say...dishwasher rivaling what Germany or Japan could put up in it's market stand. Just becauce Germany produces a dishwasher doesn't mean Greece can't do either! If it would be as good (or better) Greece would earn lotsa money, even when Germany also sells it's dishwasher!

And just think about the US...50 states in a real union....some states excell in dishwasher, some in produce...still, they have the same economical government and laws and oversight...and it works!


Is this something inborn in Southerners? Or what? Please explain, I can't follow you!

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]

Update:

The european wide "Kurzarbeitergeld" project has the name: "SURE".

It is meant for Italy, Spain and all by the Corona crisis especially hard hit EU members...

spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/corona-krise-eu-kommission-plant-europaeisches-kurzarbeitermodell-a-051a513e-8a5d-4ed6-8d38-133223767c38

Knowing that now I googled for "SURE" and found that:


ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_20_572

Lotsa info in there...in English! :)


Now let's hope that they do so....swiftly!

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]


...or as they say, the Euro was a vision by politicians...not enough economical experts. It had alot of "birth defects"!


Why not? No change of progress and betterment? Are they cursed to be like that forever?

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]



I agree with both actually! Especially if it's your own gov!

But that's not what you are talking about....you think Greece and now Italy, aren't you. And to force ANOTHER FAR AWAY COUNTRY to "prime the pump" for a foreign country is a totally different kind of fish.

You just can't just use these economical laws 1:1 in such a situation. Just one example...the greek pensioners had a higher pension than german seniors. To ask the poorer german pensioners to "prime the pump" for the richer greek pensioners is just inhuman!

To work like that...to use Blyth 1:1 the greek, italian, spanish and the german economy would need to be one...with the same economical government and oversight....we would need to be in a real union...but we don't have that!

So please leave up with your obsession about austerity concerning the EU members...we are far to different and by far not compatible enough for that!

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]


No, austerity is the reason people go looking to an austere Germany or Holland for money when they are in need. A Germany throwing out the money like others wouldn't have any money to help. We would all look like the South.

Your hostility against austerity is totally misguided and not understandable for me, sorry!

I don't want to live in a union which can't hold onto it's money...


Well....the planning has quite progressed. But as I understand it it still needs to be an unanimous decision...so it's now put to the members to say "yes" or "no".

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]


And it would be soothing those Germans who are dead set against these "Coronabonds"!

"Kurzarbeitergeld" is something all here know and appreciate...it makes sense and has already proven to work.

Win-Win!!! :)


It's linked to the EU-Budget....and that is huge! It would be doable....at first about 100 Billion Euros!

If VdL can pull this through she would become the european Queen, better than Merkel heh:)

There is more on that here...sadly only in German:

faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/corona-wie-leyens-plan-fuer-kurzarbeitergeld-in-der-eu-aussieht-16707458.html

taz.de/Streit-ueber-Coronabonds/!5673379/

News / How hard will Poland be hit by the economic crisis? [116]

Super interesting:


rte.ie/news/business/2020/0401/1127856-commission-short-time-work-scheme/

That's real helpful stuff, that "Kurzarbeitergeld" helped Germany already through the financial crisis in 2008 and is being re-instated now again too....it would work well for the poorer EU members too!

It means workers get paid even as the companies they work for have to shut down for awhile during the crisis. Meaning they keep their jobs, and the companies can start again at full power once the crisis is over. Not to mention that the people can survive this time and have enough money to keep consuming, kick start the economy immediately afterwards again.

A large scale impoverishment and unemployment is avoided!

"The European Commision has proposed a short-time work scheme today, modelled on Germany's Kurzarbeit programme, to help people keep their jobs as the coronavirus pandemic hits economies across the 27-nation bloc.

"It is intended to help Italy, Spain and all other countries that have been hard hit. And it will do so thanks to the solidarity of other member states," she said. ...."

News / A better Polish solution: aiding refugees in their home region [29]

Still?

Right now it's mainly you calling for it...

News / A better Polish solution: aiding refugees in their home region [29]

...with what army? :)

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]


Well, for that we would need exactly this kind of much deeper cooperation that most members want to avoid.

There could be a common social benefits system for all, there could be a common minimum wage, common health care and the same labor rights for all etc...but that needs joint ministries, a joint bureaucracy, shared finances and most of all, a supra-national supervision...where a national government would lose the control about all this.

Those who want that are often accused of wanting a "super state" or worse....you could do something and work at home to support this kind of closer integration and then help to send politicians to Brussels who support that...

Don't blame the current EU for not working miracles! The EU can only be as good as it's members allow...


So well, that it has become the land of milk and honey for the rest of the world...it seems...

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]


Ein Deutsch-Amerikaner! YAY! :)


I could agree with that...

Now let's focus on making it better...I believe Germany has learned, the whole EURO-zone has learned and Greece will use this crisis to modernize their bureaucracy and economy at last.

But of course, if there is absolutely no good-will from your side towards the EU and the EURO zone then you will probably still keep on waiting and hoping for their downfall....concentrating on their errors and flaws instead of seeing their successes. *shrugs*

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]

THE HORROR!!!!

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]


*nods*

Something what is curiously always ignored by all that finger pointing at Germany...

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]


What you are doing now instead is scapegoating Germany for some terrible decisions of greek politicians/economists and the people who kept voting them into place for decades...

What's worse?

And don't forget, without the bailout Greece would today be a failed state with no hope of any recovery whatsover, even the Greeks know that...there has never been a majority against the EURO membership!

Yes, errors had been made on all sides, but they may be excused because unifying such different countries, economies and cultures is never going to be easy...without any blueprint to follow....hell, even unifying Germans hasn't been without stumbling blocks...so, let it go!

You are an Ami??? :)

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]

Well, Greece seems to be on the up...if this crisis helped them to organize a better working bureaucracy and economy then maybe it wasn't for naught.

"...Greek debt, viewed as poisonous just years ago, is now in high demand as investors seek stable assets amid a global economic slowdown - and a possible recession...."

businessinsider.de/international/next-recession-greece-joins-negative-yielding-euro-nations-bond-sale-2019-10/?r=US&IR=T

I find it interesting that you as a Pole are more angry at Germany at their behalf than most Greeks...even today, so many years after...

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]

....I think he meant the Euro crisis and Greece...maybe...

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]


I came to dislike her...to what does that make me?

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]

No, I mean your "...Europe will have hell to pay..."....what do you mean with that?

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]

How so?

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]


Your loss!

And I wonder why? Whereas Madagascar might be exotic it doesn't belong to the german/european heritage like eastern Europe.

That is especially astounding coming from people who bear the mantra about the "defense of Europe" always like a shield in front of them. A little bit of knowledge and interest in Europe would be a requirement for that, one would think.

PS: I came to PF many years back seeking a connection to the my ancestors who lived and died in what is now Poland. I met some really great people here who became longstanding friends. I changed abit, I think they changed abit too...together we found out how great such a common heritage can be even if also alot more difficult than say with Madagaskar...but I would had missed alot without this interest!

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]


Then I will join the resistance! :)

And I will do so too if my own german gov tries to opress me...I did it before, I would do so again!

There are no guarantees for anything, Anti....only vigilance.


newsweek.com/donald-trump-says-eu-was-set-order-hurt-united-states-1232747

That speaks for the power of this globalist organization called EU, doesn't it! No lone european country could dream of not only being an equal to the mighty US but a rival!

Have to go now...

'night all

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]


That has to be seen for every case....growing up in the GDR my liberty and my rights as individual had been denied or severely diminished by the Soviet Union...but today I have more liberties (traveling, working, living everywhere within the EU) than ever before....my right to speak openly and vote whom I want is guaranteed...the EU is in no way trying to opress me....

And the last decades have been good to Germany...peaceful, prospering, stable...

So, it's as Torq say...globalists organizations aren't generally a good or a bad thing...nothing to fight or to support just because...if someone says so I would beg for clarification.

Trump once said the EU was "made to hurt the US"....so he sees it as a rival...so he wants it destroyed, weakened...that has nothing to do with the welfare of the people in the EU, but all with "MAGA"!

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]


The Great Combover??? :)

But yeah...totally clashing personalities...wouldn't be a first that the personal dislike between two leaders sours all relationships...one can only sit it out!

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]

Erm....I as a German feel continously blamed...

Might be that we conceive Trump totally differently....but that fits...as he would be YOUR kind of nationalist...what makes him okay...his "enemies" will beg to differ!

And he too would like the EU see destroyed, he hates supranationalists organizations and their rules...frankly I don't see any difference to any other nationalist right now.

News / Why is Poland so hostile against Germany? Do they realize how their reparations rubbish damages relations? [510]


I for one do...:)


Hmmm...do you have a living example for one politician of such sort? Because slogans like: "Make **** great again" spring to mind...or "Take back control"....as if foreigners, other countries are to blame for humiliation or loss...that invokes hostility as in "We against them"...not friendship and cooperation.

Do you really know a Sovereignist who can do without it?