News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


On the contrary. If confirmed those views may be in direct contradiction with several cornerstones of the German constitution, starting with article 1.

The issue here is not their criticism of islam, but that they are allegedly inciting hatred against all who follow the religion (or look like they do). Now where in our history has a political movement stoked hatred against a group of people that were seen as part of a religion?

To give you an example: You can criticize the Catholic church, e.g. their doctrine that prevents women from becoming priests and how they handled the child abuse scandals.

However if you make wildly exaggerated, insulting and false claims that e.g. "all Catholics are women-hating, child-raping devils who are destroying Germany and need to be deported to the Vatican" than you would likely find yourself in trouble with the law because you are defaming a whole group of people in a way that may incite violence against them.

That is why e.g. calling refugees "Messermänner"and other derogatory terms by the AfD turns up in the report by the Verfassungsschutz.

Whether or not those allegations are true will be left to the courts to decide.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Using rhetoric to incite hatred against muslims and migrants and denying that German muslims are real Germans and question their citizenship however may very well be used against them in court. And my understanding is that there are plenty of examples for that by AfD politicians.


All the Verfassungsschutz did was observing the AfD and collecting evidence. The AfD can now sue against the classification. If they lose, it is not because the Verfassungsschutz was abused, but because the evidence they built was so strong that it was deemed sufficient by an independent court. Again, the AfD are not victims here. The party chose a strategy that inevitably raises doubt about their loyaly to the German constitution.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


That is why we have courts who decide what still follows the law and what does now.


And rightists can sue again this description or e.g. fascist. Of course courts may also decide that based on public statements from the person in question, this may actual count as a factual description (e.g. Höcke).


Ultimately this will be decided by the German Constitutional Court.

Before that another court will decide whether or not the recognition by the Verfassungsschutz is justified.

The AfD are not victims here. They just reap the consequences of their actions. There have been man voices even inside the party who have warned in the last few years that the party was attracting and promoting the wrong kind of people. Their two past leaders Petry and Meuthen wanted to against those extremists, but ended up disgraced and leaving the party.

And if that is not enough, every time the AfD gets a victory or some influence, they immediately use it to confirm those fears. That disgraceful performance by the senior president of the Landtag in Thuringia comes to mind.


True. And if the AfD is banned, it is not because the Court decides that they don't like their pension plan, but because they are found to be actively working against the democratic order of Germany.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


One can feels as much hatred as one wants. Inciting others however... .


I am more concerned about not getting back to the Third Reich. That 2nd paragraph was added because the politicians who drafted the constitution had painfully learned that letting people spread lies and hatred can result in murderous consequences.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


Basic law, article 5

(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.

(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons and in the right to personal honour.

One such law is e.g. § 130 StGB (incitement to hatred, Holocaust denial and so on). This really shouldn't be news.


Please don't make me defend the Left party, but which prominent Left party politician has made such statements?

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


I' ll have a closer look at it during weekend, but from what I've heard so far, it looks like they gathered a lot of damaging material. If indeed pretty much every prominent AfD politician has been observed spreading hatred against migrants in public, then it will become very difficult for the AfD to refute this classification.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]


I am cautiously optimistic. At least when it comes to his foreign policy, he'll be in a much stronger position than Scholz since a) his foreign minister is from his party b) he now has the financial freedom due tot he reform of the debt brake and c) the biggest pacifists in the SPD are now weakened as a result of the election.


Apologies, I havent looked in my mails for years.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]

Will be interesting to see how constitutional lawyers evaluate this decision. The legal argument needs to be very convincing in order to succeed.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1440]

Well, the incoming chancellor Friedrich Merz certainly has his work cut out for him. What we now need is nothing short of a second Adenauer. He has to reform the German economy, solve the refugee crisis and coordinate the European response to the Russian threat in the East. And then there is the Trump situation. He has to show leadership where Scholz failed to do so.

If we want to stay positive, there is currently a window of opportunity with European leaders who understand the urgency of the situation and are willing to cooperate. This window may close with the end of Macrons's term in 2 years, so one can only hope that they use it.

History / Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious? [255]


What truth?

That PiS did not alienate the other EU countries and that it was a German ploy instead?

History / Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious? [255]


Everything related to the Disciplinary Chamber of the Supreme Court for instance.

EU court upholds €320M fine against Poland for violating rule of law

politico.eu/article/eu-court-upholds-320-million-fine-against-poland-violating-rule-of-law/

The Polish government should consider suing the responsible PiS politicians for reimbursement.

History / Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious? [255]


Nobody does. A closer look at how the EU operates and how much it favours smaller countries shows how ridiculous the idea is that Germany, or any other country could dominate the EU.

Do you know how many German seats are in the European parliament? Or how many votes German ministers have in the European council meetings and elsewhere, where unanaminous voting is not needed?

Usually less than what would be representative of the German population size relative to other EU members, and very, very from even a simple majority. In the EU, you need other countries to agree with you if want your agenda approved. And Poland under PiS has been very bad at reaching a consensus with other leaders not named Orban. Of course instead of admitting that offending pretty much every other EU member in some way or other was not a winning strategy, it is of course easier to blame Germany for it.


To the rule of law, and the reputation of the judiciary in general. They did so incredibly short-sighted and egoistically, and from what I have read, it will take some time to undo the damage.

Though I suppose one good came out of it. This precedent made the parties in Germany realize that the German judiciary was also vulnerable under the current rules, and implemented changes to the German constitution that prevents similar misconduct by any future government.

History / Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious? [255]


Always amusing to see that kind of PiS deflection. The PiS government managed to alienate every other EU country except Orban's Hungary, but it ultimately all boiled down to a nefarious plot from Berlin, which of course also runs the EU.

Leaving aside the stereotypes, that view always betrayed a profound lack of insight into how the EU works (per consensus with rules favouring the small countries). The fact that Putin's proxy Hungary has such veto power should really disapprove any such notions.

History / Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious? [255]


Internally they did incredible damage to the rule of law, while externally they severely harmed Poland's international reputation and standing in Europe.

In a sense PiS got lucky that they got voted out when they did because they otherwise would now be forced to explain the dead end they positioned Poland into.

History / Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious? [255]

I know that their attempts of undoing the damage that PiS has done is partly frustrated by the current president, but this will hopefully be resolved after the presidential election.

History / Is there any part of Polish history that's at least a bit glorious? [255]


Those two achievements both really impressive and it sent a message that went beyond Poland.

The first showed that Soviet hegemony over Eastern Europe was not set in stone (or as other say, the first stone was removed from the Berlin wall during the protests inGdansk) and the second that democratic backsliding could be reversed. Thanks to that, Poland seems no longer in danger of following in the footsteps of Orban's Hungary.

Off-Topic / Is Islam a threat to western society? [221]


Sadly no. They are no longer as shunned as they were before, but the church is still shamefully backwards on that issue.

The church looked away when their priests abused little children and was lenient with serial rapists amongst their ranks, but heaven forbid if two men love each other or a married couple discovers that after 30 years of marriage, they are simply no longer compatible.... .

Off-Topic / Is Islam a threat to western society? [221]

Religion is generally losing appeal in modern societies. There are signs that the same is happening in countries that have no freedom of religion like Iran.

Iran's secular shift: new survey reveals huge changes in religious beliefs

theconversation.com/irans-secular-shift-new-survey-reveals-huge-changes-in-religious-beliefs-145253

Off-Topic / Is Islam a threat to western society? [221]

Did he do anything particulary to modernize the church though? He appointed some women to powerful positions in the vatican, but he still denied them the right to become priests.

News / Presidential elections 2025 - the race has commenced!!! [665]


It depends. If the lie is that Ukrainians are truly Russians and are just waiting for their liberation from the Kiev regime by Russia than peace is rather difficult.

But if the dispute is about whether some jewish prophet from more than 2000 years was the messiah or not. That is something everyone should make out for himself, and thankfully we live in countries that give everyone that freedom.

News / Presidential elections 2025 - the race has commenced!!! [665]


If only Braun had restricted himself to internet boards.

News / Presidential elections 2025 - the race has commenced!!! [665]


Just someone who takes seperation of state and church seriously.

Nobody has the right to ridicule or attack someone else for his believes.

News / Presidential elections 2025 - the race has commenced!!! [665]


I am perfectly calm. I pointed out what he did. If you don't think that was an antisemitic attack and find it fit to ridicule it as an attempt to suppress a fire hazard so be it.


It would be wrong from your point of view. But not according to their believes to which they are entitled to in Poland.


Seems like they underwent their era own Enlightenment.

News / Presidential elections 2025 - the race has commenced!!! [665]


Braun violently interrupted of a holy ceremony and insulted the jewish faith and its' followers as satanic (an accusation that has sadly a long history in antijudaism/antisemitism).


Might as well argue that Christians practice idolatry because from the jewish point of view our worship of him violates monotheism.That doesn't give them the right to violently interrupt a mass at christmas.

News / Presidential elections 2025 - the race has commenced!!! [665]

Grzegorz Braun: Polish MP who doused Hanukkah candles loses immunity

google.com/amp/s/bbc.com/news/world-europe-68014535.amp


Not much ambiguity there. That was clearly an antisemitic incident.

News / Presidential elections 2025 - the race has commenced!!! [665]

Someone whose surname is the German word for "brown" (maybe "Braun" has a different meaning in Polish) who hates jews is running for president in Poland.

Well, the world is full of endless possibilities.

News / Presidential elections 2025 - the race has commenced!!! [665]

Braun is the guy behind the antisemitic fire-extinguisher incident right?

News / Poles say a big YES to our European Union [996]

I mean yeah, Brexit made the UK poorer and less influential than it would have been otherwise, but aside from that, no harm done... .

News / Building regional alliance to stabilize Eastern Europe. [236]

If he claimed that those were Slavs yes. But they were Serbs in his imagination.

News / Building regional alliance to stabilize Eastern Europe. [236]

As Crow tells it East Germany was also Serbia until the evil Catholic invaders came... .