Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ kondzior, your outrageous claims about the unsuitability of women to the military fail on at least two counts. First, while women may, on average, not be as strong or have as much stamina as men, not everyone is average. Some women are more suited to roles requiring strength and stamina than some men. Second, it is wrong to assume that such characteristics are required for all military roles. There are all kinds of roles in the forces and some of them require exceptional mental or interpersonal strengths, rather than physical ones.

Fnally, women such as the Polish F-16 pilot who win such positions despite social pressures and the remaining bigots in society who make it difficult for them deserve better than being denigrated and belittled.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

Thanks :-). I blame it on having watched Top Gun at an impressionable age...

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


I guess so. In my defence, I'm on a mission to persuade some people here that feminists are likeable, desirable women and not ugly man-haters :-)

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


Is it just me, or is there something rather sexy about female pilots? Especially Polish ones...

Not only is there the woman in this article, a military pilot, but I once flew with Ryanair and one of the pilots was a young woman who (judging by her name) hailed from Poland. In her smart uniform and hat she looked amazing :-).

I'm guessing some people here will say they're freaks and should be at home baking for their husbands and kids...

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ kondzior, I'm really not sure where to start in responding to your latest stream of consciousness. The best I can say is that if your aim is to argue for the innate intellectual superiority of males, it ain't working pal.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ Zimmy, I think it's true that men are over-represented at the top of the IQ range - but also at the bottom. Overall, women outperform us in intelligence tests in most developed countries.

BTW, it has been suggested that very high IQ scores - which require very high performance in the maths test - correlate closely to being somewhere on the Asperger's/autism spectrum. Men outnumber women heavily for those conditions. People with Asperger's or autism can find it difficult to work constructively in teams, which may make it hard for them to deploy their on-paper intelligence. So I don't see the over-representation of men at the very top of the IQ range as taking away from the overall point that women are more intelligent than us and are accelerating ahead of us, or that women have greater potential than us, which has historically been held back by social and biological factors.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


f stop rocks :-).

It's true that in the past, some tests showed men as having higher IQs. But there are social factors at work, such as differences in education and expectations. As these have reduced over time, so the performance of girls and women has overtaken us. Given that the pressures still exist, I would suggest that the inherent mental superiority of women over men is probably greater than tests currently show, and that the trend of female IQ results improving faster than male will continue.

Sorry guys, but the days of claiming to be superior to women and using this to marginalise and oppress them are over.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

Polonius, I can't speak for Harry, but I believe in full equality of rights, opportunity, status and respect between men and women. That does not mean we have to be the same, or do the same jobs. But it does mean that if a woman is able to perform roles in which men are currently the majority of workers, she should be able to do so. Not just by being permitted by law to do so, but also by being protected from discrimination, and also brought up in a culture that says that doing that kind of work is not unfeminine or that women are incapable of doing it.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


It depends what you mean by 'equal in the eyes of the law'. If that were exactly true then any woman wanting to have a baby would either have to take a week's or fortnight's holiday, give birth, then go straight back to work, or she would have to resign and hope to re-start her career later on. The concept of maternity leave was introduced because we're all hopefully adult enough to realise that there are biological differences between men and women that sometimes mean that while there may be equality before the law, there is in practice inequality in society. But the literalists who think strict legal equality is all that matters would look at this as an example of discrimination: after all, what man can take six or 12 months off work and have the guaranteed right to return?

Once you accept the principle that feminism is about creating social equality rather than equality in legal rights, I think you will look differently at most of what feminism has achieved, and still wants to achieve.

As for the question of whether feminism is a political movement, I refer you to the long-standing feminist slogan, 'the personal is political'. I take this to mean that most feminists have objectives that are personal, improving women's lives, but that they believe that achieving their goals requires interface with politics. Which is why, to refer back to the very start of this thread, a group of Polish feminists thought it a good idea to hold a congress to decide on policies and campaigns...

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ Foreigner4, the reason why I, and I suspect others such as f stop, have not responded to the specific examples raised in criticism of feminism is simply because that's all they are: a few specific examples. Yes, there are some people who claim to be feminists that hate all men, there have been some instances of feminists campaigning for things that many might seem unreasonable, and there are some feminists for whom the ideology is part of a bigger battle against capitalism or society. These instances do not represent the entirety of feminist thought, nor its mainstream. Most feminists just want to imrprove women's lot, not at men's expense, by making sensible changes to society that most people, male or female, would be comfortable with.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


Actually I think the points made by the gym manager were fair, and having some women-only sessions in the gym is reasonable. Women have posted on this thread before about how they are objectified and made to feel inadequate about their bodies. I can see how this might deter many of them from going to gyms. If providing them with times when they can exercise without fearing that some man is either leering at them or secretly laughing, surely that's a good thing.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


Actually, if the mayor of that German town is right about women and parking, bringing in the female racing driver to give women advanced driving skills and also boost their confidence would be a much better way to help them drive better than designing special, extra-large parking bays. It might also inspire girls to think they could do jobs involving cars and driving.

Generations of conditioning have led girls and women to believe they are less capable, inferior, marginalised and generally inferior to men; this has been reinforced by legal and other constraints preventing them from doing certain things. Do you really resent feminism's attempts to change this?

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

If society sends out messages to girls and women that they are useless at something (for instance, driving cars), this creates a risk that they either don't do it, or they set their expectations low so don't do it well. Much better to send out positive messages such as celebrating women who are great racing drivers or car engineers, to inspire a new generation to follow their examples.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ Zimmy, you're missing the point about that Telegraph news story. It's not that the German mayor is biased in favour of women, it's that there's still sexism in society if a man can seriously think it's acceptable to stigmatise women as useless with machinery by providing special, easy-entry parking bays for them.

OK, some women find parking hard - but so do some men. And some other women are brilliant at driving. For instance, coincidentally also in Germany, I was once driven round the Nurburgring by the circuit's resident racing driver - a rather attractive blonde woman called, from memory, Sabine. We went so fast I struggled to keep my lunch down.

Patronising initiatives such as the women's easy parking bays send out a message, especially to young girls: you're useless at this kind of thing, don't even try.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


At last you recognise that not all feminists are man-haters! Eventually we'll get you to realise that most feminists are like the woman sitting next to you at work or laying next to you in bed, who like and love men and just want to deal with any remaining impediments that make it harder for them to achieve their full potential and enjoy the same freedoms as men.

Travel / Collection of dress codes in Poland - what to wear? [96]

@ Tourist, I wonder if there was a reason why other women were more covered up? For instance, was it a cold day, or perhaps a Sunday when many of the women were going to or from Church?

Merged: Intriguing question about Polish women and clothing

I've mentioned before that I've noticed how few Polish women and girls wear skirts and dresses, both here in the UK and when I've visited Poland. Even in the middle of summer they are much more likely to wear trousers than say English women. I've speculated whether this may be a feminist thing as I think that feminism is more important to Polish women than some other nationalities.

However I've also noticed some inconsistencies. I enjoy watching sports on TV, and in indoor volleyball, until a few years ago there was a really good Polish team called Winiary Kalisz. One of the most noticeable things about the team is that its players all wore bikini-type bottoms long after other teams switched to shorts, as shown here:

Poland sport

In 2012, just before the London Olympics, there was a lot of controversy in the sports media here because the governing body of women's boxing was trying to get the competitors at the Games to wear skirts, rather than shorts. The move was inspired by the Polish team, which dressed that way, as shown here:



Finally, I see that Poland has a new top volleyball team, replacing Winiary Kalisz. It's called Atom Trefl. Again it has a different uniform than all the other league teams: they wear short skirts, rather than shorts:



These things make me think that femininity is a highly prized quality in Poland, and that Polish athletes prefer not to wear any kind of trousers if they can possibly avoid it. And yet, in normal daily life, Polish women hardly ever wear skirts or dresses - despite being, on average, very attractive.

Being a typical man, I realise that trying to understand how women think is a mug's game, but I can't help wondering whether I've missed something because of the apparent contradiction. Anyone here, especially female and Polish, able to explain the thinking?

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

Thanks Gabi for the link to descriptions of the different strands of feminist thought. I notice that one or two of the more strident anti-feminists on this thread came from a start point of deriding what they see as a 'professional' feminist class, who use money from the EU and governments to fund their own campaigns, and who profess to speak for all women.

While I support most feminist ideals and policies, I too am an enthusiast for a smaller state and the promotion of individual liberty; probably the feminist strand I most closely identify with is the so-called I-feminist (or individual feminist) one. Among other things, I-feminists treasure the personal freedoms of individual women so, for instance, they do not deride women who choose to be home-makers or stay-at-home mothers and they recognise that most women are straight and like nice clothes and looking good.

So I wonder whether Polonius, Zimmy and others might be willing to concede that while they might not agree with some strands of feminist thought, this one group of feminists - which I'd guess is one of the larger ones, having the support of most women - is actually one worthy of backing.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ f stop, I think you've hit the nail on the head. A certain kind of man resents feminists, belittles and insults them, and in return, they see him as a dinosaur and dislike him. He picks up on this and uses their behaviour to justify his mysogenistic opinions. The solution, I think, is not to rend to his insults but instead to continue to explain why improving equality for women is good for both women and men.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

Zimmy, there are seven billion people on this planet. More than half are female. So there are more than 3.5 billion women and girls, while not all of them would call themselves feminists, the vast majority would agree with mainstream feminist principles and campaigns. The three people you've quoted - who represent less than one in a billion of the world's females - are far from typical of mainstream feminism and most women, including most feminists, would not agree with them.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ Zimmy, you seem to think that feminists hate men. Honestly, they don't. And secure men don't hate feminists. Me? I'd happily have f stop's babies if she asked me :-).

News / Polish cleaner claims sexual assault is OK in rural Poland [31]

@ f stop, I wonder whether the attitudes you describe have more to do with the ages of the men than the fact they live in the countryside. With local cultures being subordinated by TV and the Internet, I wonder whether there really are still major differences in views about what is acceptable within a developed country such as Poland.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ Polonius, t doesn't follow that the suffragettes were against all the other feminist campaigns that have followed the battle for votes. I guess they figured best to go for one bold goal first. But some of those early feminists were involved in other campaigns, including the one for women's access to university education here in the UK.

Just today, Lenka has posted a story about a Polish woman who has discovered a cure for leukaemia. Millions of people could have their lives extended and their quality of life transformed by the work of someone who, were it not for feminism, would have left school at an early age, been married off and made pregnant without the chance to use her gift to enrich humanity.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ Ironside, I accept that women can be aggressive too. But often men are economically and socially more able to get themselves out of abusive relationships, and also physically to defend themselves.

Also, domestic violence is just one small part of feminism. Consider how many amazing vaccines, medicines, medical procedures, consumer technologies, scientific discoveries, works of art and literature etc people have created, to improve the quality of human life. Until relatively recently half of our species was largely excluded from contributing to this store of shared wealth because few people saw the value in educating women, and even if they did, all too often men kept them barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.

Think how much the lives of all of us can be enriched if we get better at harnessing the genius of women, which isat least the equal of men's.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ Ironside, no, it's you, not Lenka, who is missing the point. She's saying that domestic violence was quite commonplace in a developed country only 20 or so years ago. Indeed, there's still plenty of it around today. Why? I'd say the attitudes of some men towards women is the root cause, in that they think it's OK to take out their anger or frustration on the women they live with. Then the attitudes of some other men in positions of influence in the police and the courts system who don't investigate or prosecute such crimes. Then there are the attitudes of some women who think that such behaviour is excusable, the way things are in life, and the economic structure of society that means that a lot of women, especially those with children, may not have the economic independence to walk away for men who abuse them.

Videos from woman-hating Americans who make out that domestic violence is often the fault of women legitimise and reinforce terrible abuses.

This is a forum for people who have an interest in and affection for Poland. More than half of Poland's population is female. Surely people on this forum should want dignified and safe lives for them, which means we should condemn the apologists for domestic violence and support campaigners for improving women's rights, in Poland and elsewhere.

UK, Ireland / Britain's moral collapse? [99]

I'm British and I don't see a moral collapse around me. Granted, there are always things that can be improved, but there are many worse places. If there's one thing I'd like to change, it would be to improve the standard of living and general happiness ofeople who work hard to earn modest incomes and don't take anything from the state.

Ever since the New Labour years they have seen an increasing proportion of their taxes going to support three groups of people they rightly resent: (1) People who don't work, and don't intend to do so; (2) Senior people in the public sector who enjoy salaries and pensions seldom seen in the private sector and (3) Wealthy bankers, non-domiciled foreigners and multinational companies that enjoy enormous tax breaks or implicit state support, making it harder for those in the middle to move up into the top tier.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

@ Zimmy, I watched that video. Seems to blame women for domestic violence, even when they're the victims.

This is thinly veiled propaganda from mysogenists. As long as rubbish like this is taken seriously there will be a desperate need for feminism. Statistics have already been posted to this thread showing that male-on-female attacks represent the overwhelming majority of instances of domestic violence. Think of the women you know: your mother, sister, wife or partner, friends, work colleagues. You would surely want them to be safe, and to be able to live free from fear. And if any man was vicious enough to hurt a woman you care about, you would surely want the authorities to take her complaint seriously. Evil propaganda such as the video you linked to really doesn't help.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


Sadly, I'm no longer young :-(. I too have been in business and in my experience if a woman confronts a man about sexism, it's probably because he has been guilty of sexist behaviour, and not because he is male. Just sayin'.


I accept that some advertising uses anti-male humour to flatter female consumers. But the fact that they can do this with credibility surely highlights the bigger point, which is that men still oppress women.

In contrast, there is a huge amount of advertising that tries to make women feel insecure about their bodies if they don't look a certain way, or about their skills as wives or mothers.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


The examples given in the column you've linked to are grossly unrepresentative of feminism as a whole. The majority of feminists are straight women who love men and are, or might wish to become, mothers. They just want to be treated with respect, to have equal access to education and other public services, to have equal salaries and promotion rights at work, and not to have to compromise their careers or economic independence if they have children.

The overriding message from some people on this thread has been that the women's congress in Poland is a bad thing, and that Polish women should have nothing to do with it. I don't know whether it is guilty of any of the alleged man-hating activities mentioned in the Renew America blog - I doubt it - but if it is, surely it would be better to encourage as many women as possible to get involved, to steer the organisation to be representative of what most Polish women want?

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]

+1,f stop. I think we've encountered a man who is a walking vindication of the need for a strong feminist movement.

Life / Professional feminists' of Poland meet-up [631]


I think it's because some men mistakenly think life is a zero-sum game, and that any gains achieved by women necessarily come at the expense of men.

My perspective on this is the opposite. Like most men, I'm straight. So I hope to marry or live with a woman. If measures are introduced to ensure, for instance, that the woman I love is paid the same as any man doing equivalent work, that she is not barred from promotion and that society is organised in such a way that her career is not adversely impacted if we have children, these measures would surely make my life better as well as hers. And if she can go through life without fearing rape, being made to feel inadequate by advertising that objectfies women and 1000 other forms of sexism, so she is happy and confident, surely that would also make me happy. What kind of man would not want such things?