Life / Why are Polish people so strange & unusual? [51]

Knownaim,

My experience, both all too briefly in Poland, as well as with Polish people here in the States over many, many years, is that Polish hospitality is unrivaled among Europeans whom I've enountered during my travels!

As far as some of what I've read which you experienced, I must beg to differ sharply. Poles as a group are certainly not slower or faster than any other peoples; they can though be quite intense as concerns both their own history along with their place in the world. They are indeed sensitive to stereotyped misconceptions about themselves and if they perceive they are being made fun of or condescended to in any way, their feelers go up like a bird dog, and they will usually respond by looking you straight in the eye, above all, honestly, truthfully, and sometimes even, not so diplomatically.

At present, they have a lot on their plate, in addition to being unfairly made to feel as though the Nazi Holocaust was somehow their "fault".

History / Lusatian-Sarmatic obsession of Poles [153]

Let's hope you will be:-)

History / Lusatian-Sarmatic obsession of Poles [153]

The Celts were to be sure to be found all throughout Central Europe, merging with both the Germanic and the Slavic nations, as we both know:-)

As to their origins, there are numerous theories yet to be historically substantiated.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

I couldn't agree more, dolno.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Only in post -War Poland (also Romania), were Jews punished simply because they were Jews. Even in post-War Germany, Hungary, and Austria, there is nothing to equate with Kielce, sorry.

History / Lusatian-Sarmatic obsession of Poles [153]

Impossible because you are a Slav, that's all. If you were a Celt, like Dr, Cahill from Ireland, you'd claim the Irish saved civilization etc.

Come off it, Crow!

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Amen, delph! Spot on.

History / Lusatian-Sarmatic obsession of Poles [153]

@Crow, is it not possible that maybe the reverse is true, that all Slavs have more than a little German in them, more that is, than many might care to admit?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

@TheOther,

So now you even doubt Wiki, eh? I know very well what I read, namely, that old man Gabriel (Sigmar's dad) WAS a Nazi sympathizer. Clear enough for you?

Furthermore, what's self-flagelatory about coming clean about one's familiy's Nazi ties, however faded, however distant?

According to a book put out during the 90's, I believe, ("Papa, hast du's getan?: Taeterkinder sprechen" = Did you really do that, dad? The children of Nazi

criminals speak), the past is still very present in German society, literary excursions into "American-style" adventure fiction notwithstanding!

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Gabriel's right, and exhibits considerable sensitivity to the entire Israeli dynamic as well. Maybe the well-documented fact that his father in particular was an unabashed Nazi sympathizer might have something to do with his thoughtful stance:-)

History / Lusatian-Sarmatic obsession of Poles [153]

Try General von Steuben in the US (...before it became the United States of America)! The Prussian fought shoulder to shoulder with General Washington, plus, it was yet another German, Emanuel Leutze, whose painting of Washington crossing the Delaware prior to reaching Valley Forge, which remains one of the most indelible images in all of US history to this day. And there's always the former printer John Peter Zenger who was the first to openly champion freedom of speech in the colonies.

:-)

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Yes, that's right, Frapol.

What I've read of Wilczek, he's quite accomplished and has authored any number of academic historical texts in both Polish as well as English!

It's all a question really of accurate nomenclature and the fact is that "POLISH" death camps is inaccurate, therefore misleading.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Poland's Ambassador to the US, Piotr Wilczek, wrote a strongly-worded, forceful op-ed piece in today's NYT in which he vehemently protests claims of Polish complicity in the Holocaust, placing blame squarely on Nazi Germany.

Figured you might be interested in it. You can of course always read it on line.

Work / Can I find a job in Poland that requires speaking in English? [82]

Of course, Dirk!

Nobody's saying that English is even the primary tongue when talking with the average people in the street, and this surprisingly includes countries such as Sweden or Denmark, where English has been taught in school as a compulsory subject for more than half-a-century:-) At the upper echelons though, whether its in Lithuania, Germany, Iceland, Spain, Italy or France etc. it's a fact that a generally respectable level of English will be widely understood.

The thing is that in order to truly understand what one's interlocutor is actually trying to say, English ALONE simply won't cut it in most instances. The reasons for this naturally are too involved, not to mention numerous, to go into now or on this thread.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Whole problem with the phrase "Polish Death Camps" is that it falsely (if unintentionally) misrepresents the facts, namely, that they were not "Polish", but in actuality, German death camps which merely stood on what is nowadays Polish soil.

This oughtn't be that difficult to grasp now, should it?

Work / Can I find a job in Poland that requires speaking in English? [82]

Granted, if I as a Polish employer for instance looked at some Norwegian univ. grad's cv and he claimed to know Polish backwards, forwards, inside-out, whereas his/her IT or company skills were lacking, (and the job description were : IT SPECIALIST SOUGHT FOR POLISH START UP FIRM IN NOWY SACZ), obviously I wouldn't hire the person.

Nonetheless, it would certainly be a definite plus if that person spoke fluent Polish in addition. I'd make a business decision most likely and tell the chap that his Internet knowledge is so good that I'd overlook the candidate/applicant's lack of Polish skills...under the proviso that the candidate work with an on-staff bilingual Polish-English, or whatever software engineer to smooth out any language problems, if there were any, and everything would be just hunky-dory!

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

I agree here. The Death Camps were physically located in what is now Poland, yet they were manned, that is, run, and conceived by, Germans. NOT Poles!

In addition, the area where they were erected was considered Deutsches Reich, and not independent Polish territory.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1539]

Precisely! Let's be exact. There were "KZs" or "Concentration Camps" for numerous others, not exclusively Jews at all, used to warehouse, and of course kill or torture, millions of prisoners for the duration of the War. There were "Vernichtungslager" or "Extermination Camps", known in the vernacular as "Death Camps" or "Todeslager" whose sole purpose was the physical elimination of "undesirables", primarily (though not only) Jews, as well as homosexuals, not necessarily Jews, Sinti-Roma as well as the mentally or terminally ill. Finally, there were "Sammellager" or "Internment Camps" where so-called "Enemies of the Reich" along with other miscellaneous foreign prisoners, were housed during the War.

Work / Can I find a job in Poland that requires speaking in English? [82]

@kaprys,

What you stated about the US is at least one of the main reasons why most of the country voted for the Man in the Red Tie:-)

The double standard is so apparent, it seems, to everyone but you.

Once at the UN-school in New York where I was teaching English and German, the owner came to me one morning and asked if I could replace the surplus of German classes with English (twice the load, at twice the money!!), as apparently the native-born head teacher of the German Sector was bothered by my "American accent". While not disturbing the content of instruction in any way, I pointed out to our esteemed principal that Frau Hagedorn, let's call her, had a noticable German accent as an English teacher, and yet nobody was said to have objectedLOL Tart as my retort undoubtedly was, I remained in their employ and even got a raise (though not for German).

Moral of the story; American accents are bothersome, amusing to say the least, in a foreign language, whereas foreign accents in English are "cool", "elegant", and "desirable".

Work / Can I find a job in Poland that requires speaking in English? [82]

The sole point is that, while finding a job in any country, obviously not only Poland, can be accomplished without knowing the target language of the country, the effort is more rewarding than merely relying on the other person's knowledge of English.

It's rather like being a babe in the woods. As an innocent, people can take that much more advantage of you, that's all.

When I was in Poland, people didn't expect me to know Polish and so in a shop, the shop owner felt he might overcharge or claim I misunderstood the wording on the sale tag. When I proved he was not being quite honest, the owner was quite surprised, rather embarrassed, and gave me the merchandise for free.

A small example, but proves my point once again that knowing at least the basics of the language can facilitate daily life immeasurably:-)

Work / Can I find a job in Poland that requires speaking in English? [82]

We all still appear to be missing the key point, put another way, we're not seeing the forest for the trees.

It's easy to be wise acres and contrarians by playing the Devil's advocate even though I'm clearly right here, it's harder to fess up to the plain fact that for any variety of reasons, the standards for English have been watered down to the point of unrecognizability.

Were the average European university grad honest about their English skills, that they're practicing it and therefore enjoy speaking it (although obviously an educated native Anglophone can do it better) simply to look good in public, I'd have no problem. There'd be no pretense involved, and the playing field would be level, fair, and workable.

Plain fact is that for a foreigner in Europe, be it Poland, Germany or what have you, target language knowledge would seem a must! Excellent math or IT skills don't necessarily equate to commensurate English skill. A no brainer, that's all!

@TheOther,

:-))

Work / Can I find a job in Poland that requires speaking in English? [82]

The goal is not poetry, but the nuances of English, for that matter, any extant language spoken. Where once, firms used native speakers of those languages to communicate with international, foreign-speaking clients, today, we are reliant far too frequently on the less than sufficient English of non-native Englisn speakers, far too quick to rationalize their less than perfect English on the fact that the client probably won't know or care about the difference.

We've become tone deaf to idiom and are in danger of losing the humor and melody which makes English so special to us Anglophiles.

There's no need to be sarcastic, kaprys. I never once contended that I spoke German BETTER than a native-born German and so forth.
However, the thread is about finding a job in Poland without necessarily knowing Polish. My reply is that the ideal candidate should make it their business to know both languages... or simply stay home. They thus can save themselves a lot of grief, and money!

History / Roman Dmowski-Patriot, Nationalist, Anti-Semite? [252]

..while the more far thinking, kaprys, realized before long that the road to acceptance, is solely through assimilation!

A good point.

History / Roman Dmowski-Patriot, Nationalist, Anti-Semite? [252]

Why shouldn't it? Any ultra-nationalistic posture endangers those groups living within their midst who are seen as not conforming to a basically artificial ideology, whether Israel for Sabarim only, Poland for the Poles, Germany for the Germans etc. It's all the same hateful business which contends the nation should take care solely of her own surplus and "others" who don't happen to fit in with state plans be damned!!

Work / Can I find a job in Poland that requires speaking in English? [82]

My German is superior to the English of any native German speaker whom I've encountered thus far, not to mention Pole, Italian, Austrian or other:-)

Hate to disappoint you (yet once again), but yes my friend, I WON this fight, and no, I'm not especially "happy" to theoretically be at the eternal mercy of non-native Anglophones who seem to enjoy holding their alleged bilingualism over my head!

That's not being defensive or what have you, it's being realistic.

By the way, I DID misspell "NITpicking"...unless I'm knitting while I'm pickingLOL

Returning to the thread topic after a brief detour off the highway of good sense, I recently read in the US Journal of Higher Ed (ESL section) that more and more European universities will usually require an updated TESOL degree from any number of state-accredited British or American institutions before the applicant can even think about being interviewed.

Work / Can I find a job in Poland that requires speaking in English? [82]

Most EU-nations will number countless recent university grads who claim bi- indeed tri lingualism and are highly "competitive" with international job seekers!
The issue becomes whether the quality of their English sufficiently matches that of their native language, along with their other skills, e.g. IT, event planning, accounting etc.

In my experience, at least in the rest of Europe (Italy, Germany, Austria), is that the average information technologist may well have above-average skills within their discipline, to be sure, might have graduated at the top of their class, competitive with the best from elsewere, yet their spoken and written English is typically lacking in comparison with that of an American, Brit, Australian or Canadian.

Convincing many young Italians, Germans, and Austrians of this, can often be a full -time job (...equipt with battle gear for the tough fight one'll get)!

Bottom line in today's economy remains just that; to maintain a healthy bottom line, international companies are eschewing hiring interpreters because it's considered way too expensive. As a result, those on staff who are, say, IT enginieers and NOT language specialists, are empowered with the feeling that their English is good enough for any situation, even if it's not always the case, furthermore, that any criticism of their English skills must be merely knitpicking:-)

Prior to run-away globalization, companies would intelligently use only qualified native-speaking interpreters and translators for sensitive, international negotiation, refusing to trust every Pietro, Elena, Udo, Hartmut out there who claimed that their Matura/Abitur-level English iminently qualified them to go one-on-on with any educated native-born and trained English speaker.

Those were the days.

History / Roman Dmowski-Patriot, Nationalist, Anti-Semite? [252]

@Bieganski, looks to me though as if you're using the old "Yeah, but Hitler built the Autobahn and he did promote vegetarianism...etc." to justify unspeakably terrible things, here, saying that only Zionists would criticize Dmowski for being a known anti-Semite.

Anti-any sort of bigotry's always the easy way out for blamers to put the guilt on others as the cause of larger social problems.

Had the Jews of Poland been allowed to integrate not long after they arrived, convert only at their desire, there would scarcely have been all that trouble for centuries. Jews are no more recalcitrant about adopting to their surroundings than anybody else!

Work / Can I find a job in Poland that requires speaking in English? [82]

@kaprys,

Sadly, I'm certain you must be right in various industries. However, working in any country without at least knowing the basics of the national language would have to be agonizingly self defeating, sitting alongside one's colleagues at an office or factory and not really catching what they mean!

But hey, whatever floats yer boat:-)

History / Roman Dmowski-Patriot, Nationalist, Anti-Semite? [252]

Likewise, Ironside! Is that how you answer a debate topic by responding "Take a hike!"? Pretty sophomoric, I must say.

You clearly missed my point that the article by a well-known Polish historian, I take it, presented a very clear overview of the man and his career, yet offered no opinion concerning some of Dmowski's clear anti-Jewish bias, that's all.

Why such umbrage?

History / Roman Dmowski-Patriot, Nationalist, Anti-Semite? [252]

@Bieganski,

I'm not "guilty" of much of anything, other than expressing my concern, at least my observation, that the article which I read was strangely uncritical of Dmowski.

Don't know where on G_d's Green Earth you get that I'm somehow linking Dmowski with "Polish Concentration Camps" or post-War anti-Jewish hostility et al. but I think you ought to be examined, personally:-)