News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

This is indeed a sticky wicket, and getting stickier! Poland was obviously NOT the instigator of the Holocaust, but was surely not blameless in allowing numerous private citizens to kowtow to Hitler's anti-Semitic policies either. Where was the Church, for example, in all of this?

Their awful record of stoking the flames of anti-Semitism for centuries clearly speaks for itself...and it's not done speaking, believe me.

Finkelstein's book is a cheap shot at the actual history of the Holocaust and seems more appealing in terms of its shock value than anything else.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

@Miloslaw, as far as letting bygones be bygones concerning WWII, the Shoah and reparations, when is the "other side" willing to do the same?

When visiting Dachau Concentration Camp many years ago, I found I'd lost my way leading towards the main grounds and innocently asked a middle-aged woman directions (in German, as apparently she didn't understand English). "Why d'you people always have to remind us?" she snapped, evidently annoyed by my query,

to which I retorted "Because you people will never let us forget!".

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Crow to learn to write clear English. Then we talk ideas.
:-)

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

About Maurice, that Milch fella, Dr. Theodor Lewald who headed the Nazi Olympic Committee and any number of others, I am well aware.
Rosenberg however, even Hitler himself......TOTALLY FABRICATED FROM WHOLE CLOTH!!!

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Ahemm, then by your definition Walter von Darre (Agriculture Minister) who had Huegenot French forebearers along with the half-American Baldur von Schirach weren't "Germans" either, is that it?

Rosenberg WAS NOT JEWISH and yes, he had a Baltic accent in his German, but was of Aryan pedigree, for pity's sake!!! Geezloueez, Eichmann wrote he was teased in school as "Der Rabbiner" (the rabbi) because apparently he had dark hair and eyes, but was obviously a non-Jew also, not to mention an actual Mischling, Luftwaffe General Erhard Milch etc.... who in fact WAS a quarter Jew.

Get your facts straight at least.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Apparently, you either didn't read or understand my post of late that Rosenberg was an ARYAN German of pure Baltic extraction.
You're probably just toying around here and knew it all along, right?
LOL

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Jews killed innocents too, no argument. Let's though not forget about the historical context. As with the Holocaust, it wasn't the Jews who somehow mysteriously "chose" their fate, as many Holocausts deniers such as the Irvings, Fred Leuchtners and others of this world have insisted!

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

@G, you are mistaken regarding the fate of the Jews. Just read "Mein Kampf"....if you can!

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Not as yet. Did you ever check out >Der ewige Jude< (1935) by Fritz Hippler??

Think you might change your mind a wee bit after you do. Couldn't sleep soundly for several days following.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

The truth is that the Jews were already as it is slated for total extermination. Therefore, I focus on Polish collaborators, since again, as long as the gentile Poles remained in their place, didn't make waves so to speak, and obeyed their German "superiors", they were allowed to live.

Such was never the case with the Jews (check out the Wannsee Conference transcripts if you don't take my word for it; 11,000,000 intended originally for annihilation!!).

Their fate had been sealed by the Nazis ever since Hitler took power and so they were forced into far more dire straits and had to to whatever they had to do to simply stay alive!

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Easy to simplify history, far harder to understand, indeed to finally accept, its complexities.

No, I'm not saying for the umpteenth time that Polish complicitors were "the majority". All I am saying is that for as many collaborators on the other side, Poles too had their share of them as well.

Miroslaw is of course historically correct in saying that in no other European country was the punishment for aiding and abetting Jews in flight more severe than in Poland.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Let's just level the playing field a little, that's all I was trying to say.

While Germany committed countless, unspeakable atrocities against humanity, regrettably, Poland too had her share of turncoats and traitors.
Jewish kapos aren't a fair comparison, since in the first place, they represented the minority and in the second place, nearly EVERYONE played the Black Market in those days, then as now.

Not a pretty picture once again, but sad to say, it's the truth.

Language / Short Polish<->English translations [1040]

Thanks, NoToForeigners!

Sorry I waited this long to respond. Always grateful for the assistance:-)

While we're on the subject, are you familiar with the expression "On jest dobrym gosciem.", which I was told by a native Polish-American means something on the order of

"He's a good egg.", as one might say in American slang.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

I scarcely advocate these sorts of "restrictions", as you term them. However, rampant denial of truth ain't so hot either.

You claim to be a thinking person, Ironside, yet I'm still waiting for evidence of such, and figure I'll be waiting a long time!

Poles, I might remind you, don't have to justify themselves whenever they've visited abroad, regretfully awaiting somebody from behind a corner listening to them speak their language and being called "Dirty #$%%%-krauts!", or worse!!

Germany remains stigmatized to this very day, paying for the sins of the fathers. Is that fair either?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Germany has been so traumatized that it's certainly understandable that the gov't tends to go a bit over the top by our standards in prohibiting even innocently joking about Hitler, as was the case with those Chinese tourists several months back, who got into some hot water with the police when one of them started doing a mock goose step right in front of the Brandenburg Gate:-)

Poland might well draw a lesson here.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

One can love someone, yet criticize them too. Unconditional love needn't necessarily always mean unconditional surrender to stupidity, bigotry or oppression, does it?
Seems many of us have at best a rather parochial notion of "love".

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

I've known about them since college, not exactly recently!

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Any Pole to whom Irena Sendler, Jan Karski, and Leopold Socha are completely foreign, meaningless names, should go back to third grade...and graduate!
:-)

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

And all I'm saying is that it was exclusively the Jews of Poland (the Sinti-Roma too, I'll grant you) whom the Nazis slated for total annihilation! The gentile Poles were naturally slaughtered as well, although were technically permitted to live, albeit doomed to a life of eternal slavery to their German overlords.

Neither scenario's pretty, however, the non-Jews were in the end at least given chance to survive intact, so long as they kowtowed to the Nazis.

The distinction while subtle, remains significant.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Folks, the Jews were under the gun and did what they'd always done ever since the Middle Ages drove them into becoming usurious pawnbrokers, forbidden from joining the "Christian" guilds; they did whatever necessary in order to survive.

Leave us here not debate the sheer idiocy of what's the difference between Jews killing Nazis vs. Nazis killing Jews, 'cuz it's lose-lose no matter how you slice it.

Hell, even their own people abandoned them in their hour of direst need!! You don't believe me, just check out that movie "Nirgendwo in Afrika", when

some German-Jewish refugees were politely but insistently informed by a local Jewish official that they weren't welcome to stay there and might have to return to Germany...or emigrate elsewhere, like the States (...which didn't want many of them either, you know).

Let's stop casting stones before we know all the facts!

News / Thousands of Polish women attend Czarny Piątek rally in Warsaw [780]

Just an observation that in the States, Black Friday refers exclusively to the post-Christmas, bargain basement markdown day when retailers are typically stampeded by bargain hounds. In Poland apparently, it has a different meaning:-)

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Any more unhealthy, morbid and sick than I as a white man, a post Civil War Northern Jew feeling a collective "remorse", if not indirect responsibility, for the horrors of Southern slavery??! I too believe in "Never forget!". For this reason alone, I decided to remain a college professor in order to convince both myself and my students that the burdens of one's skin color need never stand in the way of pursuing personal success:-)

Feeling, thinking beings realize that placing Nazi crimes on the SAME scale of moral guilt with those of Nazim's victims, much like Hannah Arendt suggested, are almost hopelessly deluded.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

You probably wouldn't have "defended" a mother willing to slay an SS-officer who'd all but attempted to wrench her child away from her, and yet, as you well know, life/history's just filled with justifiable homicides.

Killing for pure pleasure, personal gain or sport (the Nazis and their followers) cannot philosophically or morally stand comparison with killing in order to simply stay alive and protect one's family, can it?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

Admitted, yet it cuts both ways too, you know.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

We're going off every which way, people!

@kaprys, the Judenraete were an attempt by Germany's Jewish minority to appease Hitler, this is true and can be documented. As a history teacher, I'd be a fool if I were to say any different.

The fact is, as jon admirably seconded, that during times of struggle, even victims are forced to make most unenviable choices, among those, the choice between deciding who should live and who should die. Usually, it's the wrong choice.

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

My point is once again, and for the umpteenth time, that while certain Jews revealed the nadir of humanity amongst them, certain Poles did as well.

Yes, Dirkdiggler, I DO believe that Jews who loaded corpses onto wagons did so out of survival! Why, if it somehow turned out the Jews

murdered their own out of the same murderous reasons as their Christian nemeses, this would throw the very concept of good vs. evil forever out of kilter, no?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

The Nazis' chief ideologue, Alfred Rosenberg was an ARYAN Balt who spoke German with a noticable foreign accent and was about as Jewish as Pope FrancisLOL

Numerous German gentiles are named Rosenberg, Rosenfeld, Goldberg etc.

@Wielki Polak,

Jewish capos are a ludicrous example to throw up to me, as they did what they did out of sheer survival; mistreat or be mistreated. Nobody ever accused us of being saints! What were the Poles' excuse for collaborating with various members of Hitler's henchmen?

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

@G (undercover)

It's the old story of The Emperor Has No Clothes! So the Poles were "perfect" and never once complied with Hitler's anti-Semitic policies, being just like the Swedes and the Danes, is that the particular fiction du jour we're propagating today, are we?? It was ALL Germany's "fault", is that it??! If life were only that simple.

@Ironside,

"Jewish war criminals"? Hardly a comparable scenario now, is it!

News / Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps' [1538]

@Wielki Polak, I don't think the issue is that Jews en masse take some sort of sadistic pleasure in demonizing Poles or Poland, rather, that they don't wish to see her claim that Poles were blameless either, much as was the case in Austria regarding their role in the Anschluss.

Perhaps not until as late as the late '80's and the Waldheim Debacle, Austria claimed that they were victims of Nazi annexation, instead of willing participants.

Again, the critical difference here is that pointing out Austrian complicity wasn't a punishable offense.

History / What should Russia and Poland do to become if not friends, then at least not enemies? [943]

Oh, but I completely agree, Slavictor. I was hardly expressing my opinion, merelyt parroting that others:-)