News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

Hey, MediaWatch, I suggest you read this.

naszdziennik.pl/index.php?dat=20110105&typ=po&id=po01.txt

Do you trust the integrity of this article?

Life / Babcia or Busha - any social class difference? [359]

Nah. Once a Polack, always a Polack.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]


Dreadfully familiar - I really wonder if they're going to bring this up in the Polish version of the report.

Worst case scenario is that the pilot gets all the blame and no blame is put towards the Polish administration side of things.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]


You're relying on the words of the lawyer that represents only a few of the families - the same families who are part of the Kaczynski-clique of dragging up Smolensk for political purposes constantly. His view is biased as hell - he's nothing but a puppet of Jarek (or more accurately, the ones controlling Jarek).

It's also one man's observation - most people seem to accept that Tusk is furious about the technical aspects of the report, rather than what the report actually says. We don't know this for certain, but bear in mind that all reports about Poland's response is based on the words of the Prime Minister, nothing else.


And I wonder if Poland is going to have the guts to admit that there are serious problems within the Air Force?

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

I've explained this a thousand times, but for the last time.

Nasz Dziennik is well known to make up complete nonsense for political purposes - it's not regarded as serious journalism by anyone in Europe as a whole. It's a tabloid, on the level of the National Enquirer - except with a "Catholic" slant designed to cater for the uneducated and easily brainwashed.

But to give you some idea - the 30 minute capacity isn't the capacity of the tape, but rather what international agreements have agreed upon for civilian flights. Given that the TU-154M was being used for VIP transport for the highest officials in the land, it's obviously going to be specified to a far higher standard than civilian aviation.

As for RMF - it's a single source. RMF is credible enough, but they could just have been reporting whatever they were told. The Smolensk report will clear this one up for definite, though - as the Polish black box will collaborate the Russian-made boxes.


I'm keenly interested in aviation - and I saw post-Smolensk reaction for myself.


What else can he be, if he ignored the rules and the plane crashed as a result?

You still haven't answered my question - will you accept the authority of the Polish investigators?

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]


What unexplained gaps?


Nope, no such issue here. As convex says - they were cleared down to 100m and should never have gone below that. The fact that they even tried an approach after being told that the airport couldn't accept them - well, that's a huge question.

The problem is that the controller didn't close the airport. I suspect that the Poles will be looking to attribute some blame in the direction of the airport staff for this - but really, the Russians didn't force the plane into making a landing.

Some blame should almost certainly be laid at the feet of the Yak pilots for landing the plane without permission - this was obviously playing on the mind of the pilots at the time.


Induced pilot error? All he had to do was pull up after reaching the decision height. In fact, he should have started the maneuver at about 150m or so - his failure to do so is what caused the crash. Tell me - what would have prevented him from doing this?

But yes, it's possible that the fog caused the captain to become disorientated - in a situation of high stress, with seconds between safety and disaster, it's far too easy to happen. Haven't you ever found yourself veering to the side of the road when driving in fog?


Could be - but if so, why attempt a landing when they were already told by the Yak pilots that the conditions were dreadful? The Yak pilots haven't denied having this conversation.

Tell me, MediaWatch - are you going to accept the authority of the Polish investigators when they release their report?

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

I suppose it all comes down to this in the end -

Are the transcripts genuine? No? Then the fog clearly seen at the crash site is a fabrication, and with it, the videos shot in the immediate aftermath. That means that any footage of Russians killing Poles is false.

Are the transcripts genuine? Yes? Then they put the plane into the ground beyond all reasonable doubt.

My feeling is that Poland is questioning certain aspects of the investigation report, rather than the contents of the report itself. Komorowski wouldn't have came out and said that the pilots were to blame unless they really were, after all.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]


We don't know. We have to wait for the report, like I've been saying all along.


The controller at Smolensk-North told them quite clearly that "conditions for acceptance : none". The weather reports (including from CNN, which I saw a couple of hours after the crash) quite clearly indicate dreadful conditions there at the time. Where's convex when you need someone to explain how weather can change in an instant?

If anything, the Russians should be blamed for not closing the airport. But can you blame them, when they were dealing with a flight with a President that would use absolutely any opportunity to attack them?

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]


Bear in mind that the TU-154B and TU-154M are different variants, and on top, the Polish one had been totally overhauled in recent months.

You also have to consider what the TU-154 base model was designed for - for operating into difficult conditions throughout the Soviet Union - so it's understandable that we'd see accidents. They're also now being operated by smaller operators - so it does make sense that accidents are now happening more and more.

You see the same thing with the A300 - a glut of accidents towards the end of the last decade.

Work / Is it going to be hard for me to find a part time Job in Warsaw? [25]

In a bar/restaurant, you can expect between 8-12zl an hour. Use 10zl as a benchmark.

So - you can get about $3.50 an hour or so. Bear in mind that there's a lot of competition for jobs too - and you've got the disadvantage of not being seen as "native".

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


Really? The Church had the power to demand hundreds of millions of zloty for their land - AND GET IT? I think not. And political power? What political power? The Church only existed because the Communists tolerated it as (to paraphrase) "an opiate of the masses".

Compare that to nowadays, where the Church holds massive influence over the country - although that influence is diminishing - again, due to the Church doing idiotic things. The recent IVF situation did nothing but harm the Church's credibility.

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


Good on him. It's about time that someone high up had the balls to tell it how it is.


What has hating Jews got to do with the problems of the Catholic Church in Poland? Actually, now that you say it - one of the big problems in Poland is the way that the Jew-haters are accepted as Catholics.


You don't really see it in Aberdeen, but look at the Central Belt - the Catholic Church has such OTT views on schooling (they tried to have a joint campus for both Catholics and others, but the RCC demanded seperate playgrounds and toilets!). It's the same self-destructive behaviour that you can see in Poland today.


The problem in Poland is that the Communists gave up power, only for the Church to be elevated to the same position. End result = mass abuse of power that's only starting to come to light. Certainly, there's a huge untold story with collaborating priests - we know that a minority of clergy in other Communist countries were collaborating with the authorities. The greed of individual members of the RCC is coming clear as well - endless stories in Poland of the Church demanding huge payouts for land that was stolen. The money also vanishes into black holes, as well.


No, Polonius. The people who need pity and prayers are the ones who are destroying the RCC from within. Are you really so narrow minded as not to see that the RCC is going down the exact same path in Poland as it did elsewhere? That same path ended in failure - shouldn't they learn from others mistakes?

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


So - you need to attack the Anglican church to avoid accepting what Wieniewski is saying? Cute.

Perhaps you might want to worry about what's going on in Poland, rather than thinking about Anglicans.

News / Sikorski doctrine - Eastern Europe under threat. Poland's foreign policy. [171]


Just like Poland was 20 years ago, and how it's still seen by most Westerners as being some poor backwater with a few pretty towns.

Get off your high horse - Poland isn't much better.

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]

So - if modernisation results in child abuse, how can you explain the sexual abuse cases in the Irish church, which hasn't modernised?

Let's face it- it's only the Church's influence in Poland that's stopped sex abuse cases here from becoming public. That, and the existence of some unfavourable laws towards the media.

News / What should Poland do with the problem of Belarus? [1800]


Wait - isn't there exit visas for Belarusians? I was under the impression they still had them... maybe I'm getting mixed up with the need for an exit visa for foreigners if their visa has expired. Hmm.

edit : I was right, sort of - permission was needed to cross the Belarusian frontier for Belarusian citizens until 2008. So - it's only in the last 3 years that they've had the ability to leave without interference. Ukraine apparently had a similar law until a few years ago.

Life / Babcia or Busha - any social class difference? [359]


I haven't even looked at it yet, but I bet it's good ;)

Life / Babcia or Busha - any social class difference? [359]

I think it's just because it's an anglicised word, so there's no accepted spelling - probably because it's not actually being taught or used anywhere official-ish.

From what I can see, it's just like any other slur - some people embrace it, others get offended by it. But it's certainly an American thing - I still haven't met any Poles who knew what "polack" meant in English.

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


Perhaps you might want to look at what's been happening in Western Europe before talking. The Catholic Church is in a position of weakness in Italy, Spain and Ireland - but is in a position of relative strength in Germany and the UK. Why? Simple - the Church was forced to reform in those countries, while in the countries where they were dominant, no-one stopped their abuse of power until it was too late.

You're not in Poland, so you clearly don't see what's happening - young people are abandoning the Church in droves. Is that good for the future of the Church? No.


And it is steadily losing that position through its own unwillingness to deal with the difficult problems that it has. Are you really so out of touch that you can't see this?


What does Michnik have to do with anything? The thread is about the Catholic Church, not Adam Michnik.

Life / Babcia or Busha - any social class difference? [359]

Dumb Pollock, dumb Polak, dumb Polack, dumb Pollack..all the same :P

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


It's the usual story - when someone in the Church says something that they don't want to hear, they ignore it. Same with the cross scenario - they refused to accept the authority of almost everyone because it didn't agree with their agenda.

Yet, they call themselves Catholic. They make me sick.

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


Perhaps he should read Wisniewski's letter again.

I wonder how many of the "churchists" have actually read it?

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


Yup - if it was backed up by serious, worldwide child protection policies, there really would be nothing to argue about. It would even strengthen the church - and would perhaps finally rid the church of the "haven for child abusers" label.

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


He's doing an ok job, but he's failing miserably to stop the Vatican from attempting to interfere with legal processes. Whta he should do is simply demand that the Church fully cooperates with the law in identifying the abusers and ex-communicating them without delay.

I suspect such a move would gain huge respect from all but the loony branches.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

Some of them did, but in a non-governmental capacity.

But the President himself and his team have no influence - it's a ceremonial role.

Life / Stubborn Polaks, anyone knows? [77]

I'm shocked that it's not only...so-called "visibile minorities" getting upset, but even white Americans look for excuses to be upset. What a horrid, vicious circle :(

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


Funny - when people use gossip and suppositions against the people who thrive on it, they seem to complain and howl. It's the exact same reason that Palikot has so much fun winding up Kaczynski supporters - they like to spread nonsense, but they can't stand when the nonsense is used against them.

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


Erm, perhaps you might want to ask yourself just how someone got such a spacious flat in such an area during PRL times.

I've long thought that Jarek's obsession with "bolek" is all due to shame at his father's collusion.

News / Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia [686]

Apparently he was quite identifiable, according to that lawyer who is causing all the trouble at the minute. It did strike me as odd that the First Lady was almost unidentifiable, but Lech was - I guess plane crashes do funny things to bodies.

But come on Jarek, leave him alone. He doesn't deserve to be dug up and pawed at for political purposes. He's in Wawel, people have accepted it and moved on - there's just no need to use his dead body for twisted political purposes.

News / A devestating verdict on the Polish church [279]


The problem is that by the time they realise that they need to change, it'll be too late and the Church will be in a position similar to their position in Italy or Spain. They're certainly going to regret being involved so heavily with politics in Poland - I think all but the most deluded people can see what harm the crisis over the cross did to the Church.


I can't see it happening, sadly. But I suspect that the days of cashing in at the State's expense are over - almost every major action of theirs to reclaim assets are being met with outright hostility.


And herein lies the problem - they can think, and they're seeing the harm done by elements of the Church in Poland. These people are the lifeblood of the Catholic Church - after all, who has the money to give 20zl instead of 6zl for a christmas candle? Certainly not the elder Kaczynski voters - who are dying out anyway.


Only a deluded person would call the most popular newspaper in Poland "worthless".