History / Polish history is 100% glorious [304]


You know, Ironside, I know a Russian who is a member of Memoriał
( pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoria%C5%82_%28stowarzyszenie%29 )
and dug the bones of Polish officers killed by NKVD, created a blog about Katyń where he puts information and evidence concerning the massacre and is discussing it with Russians and trying to convince them on the internet that NKVD did it. And you know how some Russians call this? Kissing the ass of Poles :)

The same is with one Russian woman from Moscow and I've learned a lot from her (but probably not enough).

I'm not kissing anyone's ass. I just try to explain some things and find out something for myself too.

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [304]


But I didn't kill anyone :P
;)

(I've learned this from Russians ;D)

So, maybe it should be like this: "yes, it was the Poles. Poles did it and we are deeply ashamed of it that are compatriots have done so."

Paulina (just wondering if this version would be acceptable ;))

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [304]


Well, for most normal people in Poland it's pretty obvious that Poles did it, I think. And there is a memorial plaque at 7 Planty Street and a monument nearby (not very impressive though, I must admit :/) uncovered during an aniversary of the pogrom (it was transmitted live by Polish TV) and on this occasion there was a concert in an open-air theater of Jewish kantors from Israel which I attended with my mom (there were a lot of people, whole families with children) so I guess we're getting there slowly...


I agree.
But after 50 years of hibernation facing the truth is painful and we're probably still in the stage of digesting it all...
It's not pleasant to know that your compatriots killed their neighbours out of some irrational prejudices, so people try to rationalise it or blame it on somebody else or deny it.

And, I think, some Poles are afraid to admit what was done in the past because they think that also present-day Poles will be labeled as some monsters who have anti-semitism in their genes.

I can see sometimes the same fear in some Russians blaming the Nazis for the Katyń massacre. It seems they don't believe that Russians could do such a thing. And probably they don't want to.

I've noticed the same about Turks denying Armenian genocide. They don't want to be viewed by the world as monsters.
Of course, people who deny such things or try to blame it on others choose the wrong way, they just make the world believe they didn't change. But it's sometimes difficult to explain this to them :)

Well, I guess the best way is to educate people in a calm and not agressive manner.

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [304]


Admit what?


What acceptance?

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [304]


Yes, Kraków is in the South and was in the Austrian partition. Well, as I wrote - it's just a theory ;) Maybe Russian partition had some influence, maybe it was because it was the poorest partition and least developed, I don't know.

It's not like, of course, Russians invented anti-semitism and it came from Russia to Poland :)


I was just curious if by writing "Kosher Zeitung" he meant "Gazeta Wyborcza" :) Because I gave a link to an article in gazeta.pl and this newspaper is called by people with radical right-wing views (those who are anti-semites at least) as "Jewish", "communist", "anti-Polish" and stuff like that ;)


I meant that there were pogroms before and Jews were killed.


What do you mean by that? A crowd of ordinary people killed the Jews. The police did almost nothing to stop this. Do you have any evidence to prove it wasn't the case?


And what about other pogroms in history of Poland? How would you explain them?

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [304]

For those interested - I found this:
niniwa2.cba.pl/lato_sasiedzkich_pogromow.htm


Well, there's this theory that anti-semitism grew stronger because of the Russian partition and Kielce was in Russia during the partitions. But I don't know if that was really the case... One would have to check in which regions of Poland pogroms were most common, I guess.

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [304]

What is "Kosher Zeitung"?

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [304]


Those who did the killing.


Um... But it happened...
historia.gazeta.pl/historia/1,99553,6653228,Pogromy_Zydow_w_Polsce.html


Again, it's just another theory, no proof. The communist authorities claimed that the pogrom was inspired by the anticommunist underground, a provocation done by the government in exile and carried out by the soldiers of Anders wearing false NKVD uniforms LOL Do you buy that? ;D


Maybe in poor regions prejudices thrive more easily? I don't know.


I had my history classes in the 90's. I think 20 years was enough to discover the truth, as with Katyń.


I would be careful with calling people mongrels...

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [304]


In the way that you are taught about this at history classes in school? :D
;)


No, she wasn't.


What doubts? The only doubts could consider whether the pogrom was inspired in some way by the communist authorities or/and the Soviets but that's just a theory and I think it's a wishful thinking and, still, communist authorities were Polish, not from Mars. It was carried out by Poles. I wish it wasn't, but it was...

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [304]


Well, I'm used to this ;)
Even for some Poles in other parts of Poland Kielce have this stigma of anti-semitism because of the pogrom in 1946.


Ironside, it's a historic fact, you know? Do you even live in Poland? o_O
Mother of my university professor was a witness of what happened at that time.

History / Polish history is 100% glorious [304]


MareGaea, you're so sure that in those myths there's no grain of truth?
Of course, I'm not saying that all Jews were communists, but considering the discrimination of Jews, they had their reasons to become communists, to welcome the Soviets and take revenge on Poles.

I'm sure communist idealogy could appeal to some Jews as it promoted, at least in theory, equality of all people. Race, nationality - it wasn't important for communists.

It also appealed more to peasants and workers than, for example, nobility.
The Soviets defeated the Nazis who wanted to kill all the Jews so it would be natural to welcome the Soviets. Some Poles welcomed them too, at the beginning.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Jews helped round up Poles for the slaughter". You mean NKVD? Well, I've seen some Russian graphs which show that Jews consisted a large group in NKVD, maybe even a majority (I don't remember) only at the beginning, in the early years of NKVD. Later it consisted mainly of Russians. I don't know any figures but I've also read that it's a myth that Polish SB consisted mainly of Jews.


Of course Poles did it. Who else? Martians? ;) It's a proven fact and I don't think you need Easy_Terran to prove you this.


I think that, surprisingly, he did that consciously ;)


The pogrom in Kielce was sparked off by a rumor that a boy was kidnapped by Jews and held in a cellar in order to be used in a ritual killing.

But that's the only case I've heard about as far as this "blood libel" is concerned. I guess it's more of the medieval times. I don't know if it was popular in the 20th century.


The fact is that pogrom in Kielce was carried out by Poles. There's no doubt about it. I was born and live in Kielce so I know better than any of you LOL

History / History of Poland in 10 minutes. Really worth seeing! [169]

History of Poland in 8 minutes - the whole thing from China EXPO 2010:

adam.owczarz.wrzuta.pl/film/8vfUao6atFi/tysiac_lat_w_osiem_minu t_-_historia_polski_na_expo

History / Digital reconstruction of Warszawa - Miasto Ruin - rebuilding the destroyed Warsaw [31]

Thanks for the link, pgtx!


I was in the museum not so long ago when I visited Warsaw... What a shame I missed it, they could do it earlier, pfff ;)))

History / Why Poles love Russia [105]


So very true!


LOL And I, after reading Wiedzmin_fan's comment quoted above, thought he must be Polish ;)))

History / History of Poland in 10 minutes. Really worth seeing! [169]


Yes, I know what you mean.
But I guess some people can change their ways when they realise that their behaviour is wrong and not accepted by others ;)


Thanks :)


Um... What exactly do you have in mind? ;) Because on the internet you pick up a lot of stuff, both good and bad. One could write a book about it, I guess ;) In short, I got to know Russians better, I think (in fact, before I didn't know them at all :)), or, at least, some of them. And Poles. And myself :)

And I've noticed that we all just want to get along, but somehow it's not that easy ;)

However, lately I can see a light on the horizon :) Some hope. A wind of change coming from the Russian authorities, especially president Medvedev. Or at least it looks like it ;)

And on the 9th of May I'm going to kindle a light of my own at the Soviet cemetery in my city :)

History / History of Poland in 10 minutes. Really worth seeing! [169]


;D


OK, I get it, I get it :)))
But it wasn't me who called him anti-Polish so take it easy ;)

History / History of Poland in 10 minutes. Really worth seeing! [169]


LOL Right, I didn't notice it ;))) I'm still "new" to this forum and didn't read it much ;)


OK, I can see now that McCoy first wrote "you ruskas".
I just don't like when people use derogatory terms for nationalities, even in the heat of discussion.

History / History of Poland in 10 minutes. Really worth seeing! [169]


Well...:


"Pshek" can be used as derogatory term ;)

But I don't think Sasha is anti-polish :)


Not only, there were also Rusini, Czesi, Mołdawianie, Tatarzy, but I guess Polish-Lithuanian army were the main forces. Those who took part in the battle:

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitwa_pod_Grunwaldem#Uczestnicy


Me too :)))

News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]


Well, is a Mayor of Moscow with his plans to honour Stalin with posters in the city during the 9th of may the same as some anonymous, marginalized neonazi in Berlin...?

The second one is more creepy, for sure, but the first one is more important...

News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES... [274]


I hope you'll succeed :) I really do.

Language / Is the term 'Polak' derogatory?? [254]


Well, that depends, really.
For example, a slang word for a Russian in Polish is "Rusek/Ruski". Adjective for anything Russian is "ruski". It of course originates from Russian language in which "ruskij" means "a Russian" or adjective "Russian".

But most Russians usually find it offensive. And often they are right to do so. It sounds even worse if it's about a woman ("Ruska"). Of course, many people in Poland probably got used to this word to such an extent that they don't realise it can be viewed as derogatory. Some russophiles also can use this word but in a positive way, to show affection.

I guess it depends on intenstions.

Another example - a derogatory term for a Chinese man in Polish is "Kitajec". "Kitajec" is a normal, official Russian word for a Chinese :)

So, you have to be careful with words :)

In general, I think, those Poles in Poland who know that Polish people in the US are called Pollacks, wouldn't want to be called this way.

As for German words "Polacke" and "Polacken" (at least in case of a German saying them) I would advise to use them only among Polish friends if this person knows they won't feel offended.

IMHO :)


As far as I know in English language it's "a Pole" (singular) and "Poles/Polish people" (plural) :)

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [185]


I don't know English accents that well, but I've noticed the French accent was also rather weak - she just said some words in French and I didn't hear that typical French "r" ;)

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [185]


Wow, she's amazing :D

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [185]


Sounds reasonable :)


;D

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [185]


Well, you've started it ;) Not my fault - co złego, to nie ja ;D

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [185]


Well, I decided to have a try at some wordplay ;)))
Couldn't help myself ;D


:)


So what other tongues have you acquired? :)

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [185]


I've never been to Zakopane and don't know what's this 'Zakopane ł' is :P And I'm not sure what this 'dark' Russian variety means.

Do you mean the old "ł" which you can hear in old Polish films and which is spoken by people from Kresy? It sounds more like "l", yes?

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [185]


OK, thanks :)


;))) Does our conversation still has something to do with tongue? ;D


I can see that ;)

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [185]


But I'm older than that :)))
Me and two of my friends were reading Harry Potter books when we were studying at the university, but I know even older people who read them. Even my mum have read those books ;D


Yes, I like fantasy in general and I like all the stuff that J. K. Rowling put in her books, in this world created by her, the wordplays, etc. It reminds me of J.R.R. Tolkien and him I simply adore :]


But this Doric is a dialect of English or Scottish Gaelic?


What ways? ;)

Language / Do Poles prefer US American or UK English language? [185]


True :) But I'm an adult, not a kid, so I guess I'm too old for films (and books :P) about Harry Potter ;D


Our English teacher at high school told us once that even English people from different parts of their country have problems with understanding each other. Is that true?


Yes, Polish language is almost the same throughout Poland. Maybe except for the mountains, Silesia and Kashuby region (but I guess Silesian and Kashubian are often considered as different languages than Polish, and not Polish dialects).


Wow, so you're like double cool ;D
:)))