Life / Stereotypes about Polish people being stupid? [281]

You know, long, long time ago I read an interview with Andrzej Wajda in "Wysokie Obcasy" (it means "high heels").

"Wysokie Obcasy" is Gazeta Wyborcza's women's extra - very tolerant, feministic, etc. - I'm mentioning this so you wouldn't assume it must be some nationalist rag.

Andrzej Wajda is a highly renowned film director, state decorated, four of Wajda's works were nominated for Oscars, he was also awarded an honorary Oscar, he got the Golden Lion in Venice and the Golden Bear in Berlin for lifetime achievements. He also got Palme d'Or in Cannes and César in Paris and other awards like Felix and Kyoto.

He isn't an anti-Semite. If he was, I don't think he would make a film like "Korczak" with one scene that makes me cry every time I see this film. I also doubt Steven Spielberg would write a letter to the American Academy of Motion Picture Art and Sciences in support of Wajda getting an Oscar for lifetime achievements and call "Korczak" "one of the most important European pictures about the Holocaust" if he was one. Wajda is also regarded in Poland as a film director debunking Polish national myths (Polish right-wingers don't like him as far as I've noticed).

The interview I mentioned was a set of answers to a questionnaire made by some famous philosofer or sth, it was a regular column on "Wysokie Obcasy" with famous Polish people answering questions about their childhood, their greatest successes, failures, things they were ashamed of, proud of, things like that. I don't remember what the question was about but Wajda told about why his Oscar nominated film "The Promised Land" based on a Polish novel written by a Nobel awarded writer Władysław Reymont wasn't shown in the US (maybe Wajda mentioned this as his "greatest disappointment"). He said that a Jewish businessman bought out the rights to the film and prevented it from being shown in American cinemas because he thought the film was... anti-Semitic :)

"The Promised Land" was written in 1899 and it's about three close friends and ruthless young industrialists: a Pole, a German and a Jew making business together in multicultural Łódź. I don't think I've seen the film and I've only read fragments of the book, but I've never heard about it being anti-Semitic lol The story is set in the times contemporary to the author so he obviously described the existing anti-Semitism (I remember a scene in which a male character observes or is following a Jewish woman as he fancies her and has a dilemma because he thinks it wouldn't be appropriate for someone of his stature, or whatever, to get involved with a Jewess, if I remember correctly). I think it would be difficult to write about those times and omit such things completely.

So I guess some kind of anti-Polish sentiment must have come into play or some radical oversensitiveness on the part of that Jewish businessman. Either way, all you needed was one rich guy to put down an Oscar nominated film. On the other hand probably only one Jewish director was needed, namely Steven Spielberg, to promote Andrzej Wajda to an Oscar for lifetime achievements so, in a way, justice has been done, I guess ;) However, an opportunity to promote some Polish culture was missed at that time.

I think it was probably the first time I was introduced to the notion that "Jews abroad don't like us (especially the American ones, apparently)" and that the stereotype about us is that we're anti-Semitic.

TheOther, often when I read articles about Poland/Poles at English-speaking Jewish/Israeli sites (or not even necessarily Jewish ones, sometimes it's enough that's an American one, I guess) there are a lot of comments in the spirit of "Oh, Poland is like this...", "Oh, Poles are like that...", "My grandma/mum told me they were worse than the Nazis", etc. etc. no matter what the article is about lol

I also remember reading some American article or an interview with an American or American Jew/Jewess saying that both Poles and Jews are to some extent still in denial about their mutual prejudice towards each other (the author or the person interviewed was giving examples of his own personal interactions).

There was even one Israeli on PF who wrote that "anti-Polonism" in Israel was discussed in Israeli media. I can easily believe that generally people in Israel nowadays don't know, care or think much about Poland or Poles, the same probably goes for the US or wherever. However, I think that in the past the anti-Polish sentiment could be pretty strong and probably it still is among some people of Jewish descent (it's passed down from one generation to another in some cases just like "Polish anti-Semitism") and I think it's natural, considering the long, complicated and difficult history of Jews in Poland. It isn't good, of course, but it's understandable. Maybe it will take years before it gets "out of the system" completely.

Btw, I've often seen Russians complaining about how they are portrayed in Hollywood films and that they're almost exclusively villans, but they were usually putting it down to general Western Russophobia rather than anti-Russian sentiment among Jews in Hollywood or the media, as far as I remember.

USA, Canada / Poles in America: How do you pronounce your Polish surname? [128]


Yes, there are plenty of not polonized surnames in Poland and there are plenty of polonized ones. For any Polish person born, bred and living in Poland with half a brain it's usually pretty easy to tell them apart. "Benoit" isn't polonized and people who didn't study French probably wouldn't know how to pronounce it but if it was written "Benuła" then it would be polonized and everyone would know how to pronouce it. "Blumstein" isn't polonized but "Blumsztajn" is just like "Marchiel" and "Miesojed" are polonised. I understand that maybe there are some unusual cases in which people may be confused but, as I wrote, "Marchiel" and "Miesojed" are pretty straightforward.


It doesn't matter how they were pronounced, written or spelled at a given time in history or in whatever place. They're polonized now, they're clearly spelled in the Polish way and skuridat asked how they're pronounced in Polish and not in Hebrew, Yiddish, Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian or whichever language. Since those surnames have clearly Polish spelling it's a piece of cake for a native speaker of Polish to pronounce them in Polish, imho.

USA, Canada / Poles in America: How do you pronounce your Polish surname? [128]


But skuridat's great-grand parents' surnames have Polish spelling - this is pretty obvious to me (and I'm born, bred and living in Poland), so it doesn't matter how they were pronounced (or written - Hebrew and Russian have different alphabets than Polish, after all) in their original languages. So, as I wrote, any Pole who knows Polish would know how to pronounce surnames "Marchiel" and "Miesojed" because the spelling of those surnames got "polonized".

Just like every Pole knows how to pronounce names like Gabriel, Daniel, Józef or Dawid or Iwan and Natasza or surnames like Blumsztajn (which is the polonized version of "Blumstein") or Prokofjew - despite their different origin they all have Polish spelling. I think it's pretty straightforward :)

USA, Canada / Poles in America: How do you pronounce your Polish surname? [128]


Every Pole who knows Polish would know how to pronounce those surnames because they're spelled in the Polish way.
Marchiel does look Jewish because of the suffix, but Miesojed seems Russian to me. It reminds me, for example, of the Russian name for the Samoyedic peoples indigenous to Siberia (and a breed of dogs bred by them). I would translate Miesojed as "the one eating meat".

Both surnames are rare, but they can be found in Poland judging by the maps at the moikrewni.pl site.


Marchiel - pronounce it like you would pronounce names "Gabriel" or "Daniel". If you want to be really accurate then in Polish "a" is pronounced in a bit different way than in English - it's always pronounced like in the sound "ah" ("h" is voiceless here, of course). "Ch" is pronounced as "h", but I see you already know that.

So the surname is pronounced like this: "Mahrhyel".

Miesojed - pronounce the endining of this surname just like it's pronounced in the name of the Russian breed "Samoyed". Normally I would think it should be "Mięsojed" ("mięso" means "meat" in Polish) but I googled the surname and it's always "Miesojed". "E" in Polish is pronounced as in the sound "eh" or, for example, in the word "technology". Both "i" and "j" are pronounced as "y" is in English. "O" like in the words "not", pot", etc. "D" at the end of words can be often heard as "t" and it's natural, but I would say that in this case, taking into account the Russian origin, the "d" at the end should be pronounced more like "d" than "t".

So "Miesojed" is pronounced like this: "Myehsoyehd" (with "h" being voiceless, of course).

News / Poland's post-election political scene [4080]


Haha, that's exactly my impression of that fragment about the civic society ;)
Ironside, and what's your take on what Kaczyński said?


Exactly.


I hope that's not true, but who knows... I've been naive enough before already... :/


I'm criticising people who are convinced that if someone is criticising their beloved leader or party they can be doing that only because they are payed to do that by "wraże siły" (foreign enemies). This is the narrow-minded conviction of pro-Putin Russian nationalists and looks like it is also your and Polonius3' conviction. They simply can't comprehend that criticism of Putin and Russia can be valid. Everyone who criticises Putin or Russia is a traitor or an enemy, no matter whether it's ordinary citizens, opposition, the media, Poland or the West. Such attitude makes any discussion impossible because it makes the other side not an equal partner for such discussion.

First, I'd like you to prove that 80% of Polish press is owned by Alex Springer.
Secondly, I'd like you to tell me who was "bankrolling" TVN.

Thirdly, I'd like to say that even Agnieszka Holland criticised TVN saying they weren't entirely objective (and she said that during an interview on that station, you should see the anchor's face lol - oh, but you probably don't watch TVN or TVN24, do you? ;)). My parents at some point switched from TVN's "Fakty" to TVP1's "Wiadomości". I myself noticed somewhere around the second term of PO in power that "Wiadomości" on TVP1 has become surprisingly objective and neutral (something unheard of before, since every new government was taking over TVP pretty shamelessly, as far as I remember). That's why I was absolutely baffled by the savage agression of the elderly people when they attacked that poor TVP journalist: youtube.com/watch?v=Spa5CBzB_4I

Such "civilised" people will be setting the tone in my country now?

The fact that some TV station or a newspaper may be to some extent not objective or biased doesn't have to stem from any foreign "bankrolling" but simply from the political views of the station or newspaper - this is how it is in many democracies. Let's take CNN and Fox News, for example. Am I correct?


LOL
No, they're protesting against PiS breaking the law and constitution. The reason why KOD came into being was the Constitutional Tribunal crisis. The parliament voted for the new legislation about the CT on the 19th of November 2015. The same day a group called KOD was set up on Facebook. The first public meeting of supporters of KOD took place on 26 of November in some theater (just 200 people). On 26 of November KOD wrote an open letter to the president of Poland urging him to take the oath from the judges elected to the Constitutional Tribunal. The first manifestation in defence of the CT organised by KOD took place on the 3rd of December.

On the 19th of December the demonstrations took place in 23 cities in Poland and in front of Polish embassies and consulates abroad.


And what's wrong with that?


I don't know whether it's because I'm tired and sleepy today or because you're not making sense but I don't understand this sentence. Could you elaborate? What does it have to do with KOD demonstrations?


No, Ironside. Both PiS and PO and their supporters were attacking each other for everything and nothing, but this is different this time. No government before went as far as PiS is going.


What? lol What on Earth are you talking about? I don't like PiS, I'd rather they didn't win, obviously, but I never contested the fact that they've won a fair democratic election (unlike PiS that claimed that previous elections when they lost were rigged! lol). That's not the problem, the problem is what they started doing after they won with the CT and not only CT. I didn't have a good opinion about PiS but, honestly, it didn't cross my mind that they were going to do the stuff they're doing now. Especially that during the campaign they were posing as modern and more friendly and professional and talking about "good change" and all that bullsh1t with smiling president showing of his pretty daughter. They've only shown their true faces after the election during nighttime parliamentary sessions...


:)
As I wrote before - arguments, Ironside, arguments and not insults :)


Me - a leftie? That's a good one :D You're not even able to tell my political orientation lol Have you ever met a leftie who's a religious Catholic? I must say I haven't. Although I think there should be at least a bit of a socialist in every Christian :)

I'm a centrist - something between a liberal and a conservatist with a drop of socialist, I suppose. That's why I can be less "stupid" than people like you or jon357 who are fanatics of one political side. I can see both sides of the barricade so I would say I see more than the both of you can see individually.


I know, I know, I'm all wonderful and brilliant when I'm criticising others and my comments are hitting nails on the heads one after another but when I start criticising you or what you like (no matter whether it's you or jon357 or anyone else who can't seem to discuss like an adult) I'm suddenly "stupid", "hormonal" and my "overlong" comments are "mindless drivel" :)))

Now, could we all focus on the subject matter instead of my intelligence or lack of it, my hormones, the length of my posts (if you don't like reading, go and watch a film, nobody forces you to read it ^_^'), etc. :*


Ironside, be serious, please. I was talking about the content and I think you're intelligent enough to know that.
Your comment is an example why discussing on this forum can be such a waste of time. Instead of using some serious arguments you're wasting my time by writing stuff like this and I have to respond to such childish play.

Btw, we "kids" were learning Russian at school so I was not only able to realise that those Russians were using a different language but I was also able to read it and discuss with them in their own language (poorly, but still... ;)).


What about them? :) Tell me about them. You surely must know much about it? :)
The context was, for example: supporters of the government calling the opposition/media/protesters traitors payed by foreign forces because they were criticising the government.

Any normal person in a normal democracy recognises the right of the opposition/media/protesters to criticise the government without them being called traitors payed by foreign forces.


I'm comparing attitudes, mentality, Ironside. Those "words" express those attitudes, mentality.
For example, Putin's actions during the Ukraine crisis were comapred to the actions of Hitler, the state of mind of the Russian society was compared to the state of mind of German society in the 30's. Does that mean Putin is Hitler and Russians are Nazis? Of course not, but there are disturbing similarities, patterns, attitudes, etc. At some point after the annexation of Crimea even some Russian state backed newspaper published an article defending the actions of Hitler concerning Gdańsk bascially justifying the attack on Poland. Who could imagine such a thing considering how much Russians hate the Nazis? But at some point such schizophrenia is possible.

Just like with PiS supporters or simply right-wingers hating on Putin and Russia but acting like Putin supporters themselves.
The same with Polish government...
Of course, Putin and Russians were greatly offended when they were compared to 1930's Germany :)
PiS and some or many Poles, I don't know (including some liberal journalists on TVN as far as I've noticed lol) were also offended when PiS was accused of "putinisation" of Poland :)


You can try, but use real arguments for that and some real info and not insults, please :)


That's not what I wrote you demagogue you :) I've compared the mentality and attitudes displayed by you and Polonius3 in your comments to the mentality and attitudes of pro-Putin Russian nationalists.

I understand that you feel butt hurt by being compared to pro-Putin Russian nationalists :) But I have a felling that your reaction would be different if I compared your comments to that of pro-Orban Hunagrian nationalists :) Am I right?


I'm not some polling or research institution, Ironside :) I'm an ordinary forum user who has a right to make observations and comments and can draw conclusions based on those observations. You don't have to agree with them, I know you most probably won't :)


No, a judge shouldn't be above the law just like the president and the government shouldn't be above the law. The CT didn't brake the law. The president did by not taking an oath from the elected judges. He broke the constitution and he will face the State Tribunal after PiS will lose power.

You know, what baffles me and people I know is that PiS is behaving like there's going to be nothing after them, like there're going to be in power forever o_O

Don't they understand that the changes they make can be used against them by the party that will come to power after them? That the power they give to the state may be later on used by a party far dangerous then them? They seem to be extremely short-sighted.


Let's take a different example then if you don't get what I'm trying to say. The EU imposed sanctions on Russia (although Russia isn't even a member of the EU) for breaking the international law and the treaties Russia signed (annexation of Crimea). The EU can impose some sort of sanctions for the breaking of the Polish law and acting against the Polish constitution by the Polish government since such actions are apparently breaking the EU law and the treaties Poland signed.


So, by your logic the government has also certain rights and duties and if they fail to fulfil those (like acting according to the law and the Constituton of the country) they are no longer acting as a government but as "so called government", for the lack of a better expression? :)

You see, I'm not that stupid, am I? :D That's a double-edged sword ;)


Ironside, you don't know my opinion on the EU so don't pretend that you do. There's one thing that the West does good for sure though and knows lots about and that's democracy. They're far more experinced than we are in that department.


Oh, I don't know about that. I've heard other opinions.
And anyway, are you saying that noone can criticise any country for anything because it's not their business? Russia can't be criticized for being undemocratic, Saudi Arabia for not letting women drive cars or North Korea for keeping political prisoners in concentration camps? China for harvesting organs from Falun Gong followers kept in prisons (since they have healthy bodies everyone wants their organs, sic!)? Why can't Iran have a nuke? It's their business what they're doing in their own country, right?

You will tell me now - but they don't have democratically elected governments.
OK, but PiS wasn't elected for what it's doing now either. Every government in Poland is supposed to act according to the Constitution of Poland even if they don't like it. PiS could change the Constitution if they got enough votes but they didn't and hence they don't have the mandate to do anything against the Constitution.


Well, you would have to prove that. Feel free to do that, I learn all my life :)

News / Poland's post-election political scene [4080]


OMG, I'm sorry Ironside, but that's a funny one, especially considering how PiS is placing their people absolutely everywhere, instead of professionals lol


I used to think the same, but I'm not so sure of it at all anymore. It's already worse than with Orban in Hungary despite the fact that he had a much bigger support and big enough majority in the parliament to change the constitution. PiS didn't get enough votes to change the constitution so they're doing stuff they shouldn't be doing according to the law.


And in the minds of the EU and the US, it seems :)


I'm looking at Russia, Poland and other countries, at history, the present day and facts. And?


Then you clearly weren't in Poland at that time. I was.


Yes, everyone is wrong and only you are correct? Eh? What is this comment? Majority of Poles don't understand politics, the West, I'm often misinformed (about what?), most Poles feel more than think, etc. - what is this bullsh1t? And you're supposed to be the patriotic Pole? lol

Ironside, am I right in thinking that you don't live in Poland?


I wish I could, but I don't have the time to do that right now (that's why I'm sitting at this late hour like an idiot to finish this and have it off my head). As I wrote there's lots to write about. Maybe one day. But I think the comparisons between pro-Putin Russians' comments and the comments that I found here are valid and important because PiS government is showing signs of non-democratic Putin-like mentality. My post was a warning where it can lead.


I would like to see that interview too but judging by what PiS is doing I wouldn't be sursprised if that was true.

Ironside, all I'm saying is - it's better to "dmuchać na zimne" than "na gorące", and it's getting too warm in Poland already...


"Łubu dubu, łubudubu, niech nam żyje Prezes naszego klubu, niech żyje nam." :D (that's a cult quote from a cult Polish comedy "Miś", for those who don't know :))

Here, I found a fragment about the civic society from that interview with Kaczyński:
wiadomosci.ngo.pl/wiadomosc/194234.html

I must say it doesn't make sense - he claims that in III RP the disident circles were against the activisation of the citizens and the way to fight this activisation was to create... a civic society lol

And what he's saying later on is:

"The idea of the civic society was 'serving' not only those fears but first of all the political interests of the disident groups which were coming - whether purely in the biographic sense or in the sense of the social environment - from real socialism. They wanted to have some kind of political vehicle, because they never managed to build a strong party. The structures of the civic society, set against the politics and the state, have become such vehicle. That civic society was supposed to be a construct completely deprived of content, based solely on the system of authorities whose views on the state were burdened with their experiences of the repression used against them by the communist state. It led to the conviction that any repressive powers of the state are evil in itself."

What a load of gibberish o_O

News / Poland's post-election political scene [4080]


I don't know how much of press in Poland is in Axel Springer hands (care to prove those 80%?) but TVN up until recently was Polish-owned. I think it was bought before elections by some American company which I didn't like, btw, I preferred it to stay Polish at that time.

So who was "bankrolling" them?


Well then you have completely no idea why people are protesting or you're simply lying in my face, like PiS does.


How's that?


They have the right to freely speak their mind and I have the right to make observations and comparisons. I'm not telling you that you shouldn't write this or that, I'm telling you that people like you sound like Russian pro-Putin nationalists, that's all.


Ironside, it seems you can't get your head around what I'm saying.
I compared the comments of people like you to the comments of nationalistic Putin's supporters. Because they're exactly the same. Exactly the same. Do you understand?

You have the same mentality.


No, but judges from the Constitutional Tribunal have been already threatened by the all powerful minister of justice (since he's now the general prosecutor too, sic!) with legal actions.

Do you think authoritarian rule has to come all of a sudden and the situation won't be deteriorating gradually? Do you think Putin got the power he has now overnight? It took him years to turn Russians into well indoctrinated zombies. Now he can do whatever he wants.

You don't have to shoot protesters in the streets to turn a country into autocracy. Russia is a great example of that. All you need is making the right laws (everything is done "legally" then!), doing some tricks, some smoke and mirrors, and, of course, people don't get arrested for different political views but for corruption and "hate speech against the Russian nation" and stuff like that, the media aren't censored, they're just punished for popularising "terrorism", "extreme views" and other funny stuff ot they're simply bought out by "independent" business people ;)


No, Ironside. I've made logical comparisons. Read my post again, if you don't get it.


That Russian guy who commented that Kasparov looks like an ape had also no affiliation not only to the government but to any political party (as he claimed) and he was also entitled to his opinions and his "unfavourable views" about Russian democratic opposition and I was entitled to have an opinion about his opinions.


LOL Ironside, it's you who's calling people like me "damn morons, saboteurs, traitors and punks". Look in the mirror for once...


"So called opposition" - again, as If I was reading a pro-Putin Russian nationalist. There's no "so called opposition", there's only democratically elected oppostion.

I'm not calling the present government "the so called government".
The opposition has to "go"? And what's going to be left? Only PiS? lol One party system? :D


I equate your comments with comments of Putin supporters.


As far as I remember you wrote how you hate the protesters and that they should be shot or sth of this kind. I don't remember the exact words but I remember how shocked I was by what you wrote and I think delph commented on that - maybe he remembers which thread that was.


As I wrote before - any autocracy and dictatorship use this mantra (Polish commie governments included).


That's right and that's why they can be excused and we can't be excused.


And what if it's you whose clueless and not me? We can go on like this forever. Or until PiS will go even further.


Yes, yes, and they will help Russia to become yokels of the West.


You mean like Poland demanding interventions from the EU in Russia's internal affairs? lol Or when Poles wnated interventions form the West during commie times? Those traitors! lol

We're the EU, Ironside. We are a member of the EU. They can intervene in the way it's allowed by the EU law. You don't like it - make a referendum on leaving the EU.

And yes - I want them to intervene because I care about the future of Poland. Do you even live in Poland?



Haha, you are truly worth each other, you, Ironside, and you, jon357 :)
I'm sure Ironside is also convinced that in those latest posts I was just "a gobby and hormonal youngster who argues for the sake of it, making overlong posts with too much (usually inaccurate) information - and who always loses" :)

You people are so childish and petty...

News / Poland's post-election political scene [4080]


Well, you're defending PiS in what they're doing. If I remeber well you're a Ruch Narodowy supporter which is even worse. Plus shooting protesters in the streets comment - what kind of Pole are you? That's ZOMO mentality, ffs.


Ironside, after 7 or more years of discussing with Russians and reading stuff on Russian internet I could teach many Polish journalists (and probably some Western ones too, and you too) about a thing or two and how "dramatic" they should be right now, believe me. Most Poles don't have the knowledge that I have, unfortunately, and probably don't understand the gravity of what's going on and where it could lead Poland.

And don't pretend that you don't know that I can think for myself.


Yes, Poland isn't Russia yet, it's just heading that way. It's all very comforting, indeed...


It looks like both apples and oranges are prone to going bad and rotting.


Sure, when PiS was in opposition and slandering Polish government (including accusations of being in cahoots with Russia and behind of the "assassination" of Lech Kaczyński and organisating manifestations with torches and slogans as if they were going to make a coup d'était and claiming the elections were rigged etc.) was all good and dandy and wasn't endangering anything lol

Please, Ironside, I'm not a moron. I have a brain. And I'm actually using it. And it works. I've proven it many times before on this forum.


What what what? Make some effort and use arguments with me or I shall destroy you, like many before you ;D :P


Of course nooot. When I'm criticising liberals or leftists you, Ironside, say that I "hit the nail on the head" (like when I criticised smurf in the thread "Should Poles help Germans organize protests demanding free media ?")

But when I'm criticising right-wingers that just makes me "a good carpenter" :)

You are no better than jon357, smurf or Harry. When I write what they like or I criticise whom they dislike I'm "hitting nails on the heads" but when I criticise them or sth they defend I'm treated like the greatest retard on this planet :)

Humans... lol *smh*

Btw, one journalist said on TV that Jarosław Kaczyński in one of older interviews he conducted with him said openly that civic society in Poland should be eliminated because it gets in the way of the power of the state. How do you like that, Ironside?

News / Poland's post-election political scene [4080]

Lots of crap going on in Poland but I don't have the time (and nerves) to read PF and comment on here so I stay away, but I had a look today at a few pages on this thread and I'd like to share some observation.

PiS supporters on here sound like Putin's supporters in Russia.

Some examples:


I see Polish nationalists even adapt the way Russian nationalists speak about democratic opposition in Russia. I've already written on PF that Russians call liberals "liberasts" (либерасты) which is a portmanteau of words "liberal" and "pederast" (педераст - a derogatory term for homosexuals, used like this also in Poland).



Again - democratic opposition and protesters in Russia are called exactly the same and accused of exactly the same.


And again - people (including media) opposing Putin and his United Russia (/Kaczyński and PiS) can't possibly be doing it out of their own conviction. Someone must be behind this "bankrolling" them. Or they must be stupid sheep listening to media influenced by hostile governments (and the Jews :)).

The only difference is that according to pro-Putin Russians the opposition media are payed by USA and the West and according to PiS supporters (or nationalists among them, at least) the non pro-PiS, non-right wing media in Poland are payed by Germany (and the Jews, according to the more anti-Semitic ones lol) and nowadays, according to them, probably by the rest of the EU lol


LOL!
OMG, the disruption of normal traffic got me the most!!! :D I remember one Russian guy from Moscow, a mild supporter of Putin (as he claimed) and a vicious hater of democratic Russian opposition (he claimed they are mostly Jews and are payed by the West + commented that Garri Kasparow looks like an ape and he's not a real Russian anyway) complained on regular basis about pro-democracy and anti-Putin demonstrations that nobody wants them, nobody cares for them and they only disrupt the normal traffic in Moscow! Who cares about democracy and an authoritarian leader - people want to get to home from work, they don't want traffic jams! :O

People in Russia know their priorities, unlike those weirdos in Gayropa (and Poland, until recently :/)! :D

Btw, when my anti-Putin Russian friend came to Warsaw to sightsee she was so amazed (in a positive way) about all the demonstrations taking place in Warsaw (like, for example, families with kids and balloons on some pro-life demonstration) and small presence of friendly police - that was during PO-PSL rule.

Also, PiS supporters didn't seem too bothered about the destruction of Warsaw during the Independence marches. Oh the hypocrisy...

I remember all those comments from Russians about "the hienas waiting in line for paychecks outside the US embassy in Moscow" (about democratic opposition and protesters), that all the liberal opposition wants is to get to power and steal money as they did in the past and they want to sell Russia to the US and to the West and all the US and the West and Poland want is to put Russia on its knees or destroy it altogether. And democratic opposition in Russia, of course, is ready to get to power by the means of bloody revolution, they would do anything just to get those dollars, eh.

Bringing country from its knees is also a common rhetoric for both Russian supporters of Putin and Polish supporters of PiS.
Also, I don't know what it looks like among supporters of PiS in general, but what I've noticed here is disregard for democracy and autocratic mentality (something that usually Poles were accusing Russians of!) with all this love for II RP and Piłsudski and stuff like Polonius3 writing that Piłsudski was tired of "squabbling parliament" in one of the threads some time ago. Also I think I recall Ironside wrote something about killing people in the streets. I didn't comment on all of that but I must say that it chilled the blood in my veins and got carved in my mind, as you can see.

I just wonder when PiS will stop to pretend that they care about democracy at all. And whether their supporters care about it and to what extent.

Russians don't seem to care about it anymore. I've seen Russians calling it "**********" (дермократия - gównokracja) and democrats - "**********" (дермократы - gównokraci). According to Putin Russia has it's own original version of democracy that fits the enigmatic Russian spirit or whatever (in reality it's just an ordinary autocracy and there's nothing "special" or "original" about it) which is called "sovereign democracy" lol:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_democracy

I wonder whether also in Poland normal democracy will be considered an invention of the "degenerate West" and PiS will think of sth fitting the "unique Polish spirit" more lol

Actually, what am I saying... They're already doing that...

And of course any criticism by the West (and Poland) against transgressions against democracy and rule of law are considered to be "political" and "hostile" and an attempt to put Russia into a corner or "on its knees". We are already hearing the same from the Polish government talking in such terms about opposition and the EU.

EU/foreign governments/foreign media, etc. "interfering in internal affairs" - that's a Russian mantra (and a mantra of any autocratic regime and dictatorship, for that matter) that is becoming also a mantra of the Polish government. You really don't have to be a genius to see that. I hope EU leaders and diplomats are seeing this too and won't turn a blind eye (it seems to me that Cameron already did that in order to make a deal with Poland - shame).

According to Russians NGO's are paid by the West. Amnesty International is a Western organisation (ah, Venice Commission and its "non binding opinions" come to mind :))) and hence is "political" and lies about everything that concerns Russia (human rights violations, journalists ending up dead, war crimes, etc. - lies, lies, Western lies lol).

Putin didn't care about demonstrations (despite the fact that they were much more numerous then in Poland), demonstrations didn't seem to change much in Hungary and PiS doesn't seem to be impressed by them either.

I don't know how many people would have to come to the streets in order to make PiS change their ways. As many as during Solidarity protests during commie times?

I really don't know.

It seems to me that PiS is like Putin - it will go as far as we'll let them (and they will be lying in our faces in the meantime, just like Putin does). And since it's a democratically elected government I'm not sure what we can do about it except protesting in the streets. But there would have to be some really mass protests and I'm afraid that by the time Poles will wake up it's going to be waaay to late. PiS is doing everything much faster than Putin (this has its advantages and disadvantages). I remember arguing about the experimental law in Saint Petersburg banning "homosexual propaganda" with that Russian guy (the one who called Kasparov an ape) before the West and Madonna took any interest. When they finally did it was too late, of course.

And I'm afraid the EU may be our only hope. I hope they won't leave it be :/

You know, there was a time when I found it funny how Russian and Polish nationalists are alike (well, nationalists everywhere are alike, I guess). It was so funny because they hate each other so much.

It would be funny how PiS seems to be parroting Putin (not Orban anymore, it got too far already, I think) and hating on him at the same time if I didn't live in this country. But I do and I care about Poland and it's not funny anymore. It's scary.

It looks really bad. I can't believe this is happening in Poland. That people like those in PiS were actually born in my country. How's that possible? In Poland that fought against totalitarian regimes, against communism? So much sacrifice and for what? To be all of that thrown away after less than 30 years?? It's heartbreaking... I can't believe what's happening... :( Damn, people must have felt this way in Germany when (democratically-elected) NSDAP came to power...


Wow, this is rich coming from a PiS supporter! lol How can you people be such hypocrites? I don't get this party fanaticism. Have people lost their minds? Is this party your family, or sth? They're just politicians, ffs! And crappy ones at that! ;/

I could go on like this but don't have time atm. Maybe some day I'll even make a thread because there's lots to write about, if I have time and will and some funny things won't start happening to my computer like when I was writing about the Ukraine crisis and I wasn't able to write on the internet for months ("greetings" to "sad gentlemen" from Russia if they had anything to do with it lol). Because nowadays my mum is warning me about "sad gentlemen" from Poland spying on the internet lol :/ She's afraid I'm going to get "internowana" for writing on the internet... lol That's like the term from commie times for people who were ending up in prison for "anti-communist activity" lol I hope it won't come to this. I was laughing when she was saying that she's afraid of "those people" (PiS) before the elections... I thought she was exaggerating, but I don't think that anymore... And I'm not laughing anymore... :(

This is all depressing, to be honest... Especially considering all the sh1t that's going on in the world and with the EU and Trump in the US...

I wouldn't like to be Lathspell, the bearer of bad news again, but all of this doesn't look good... This is not 2007, people... The world has changed and Poland has changed too... The question is - how much...


*sigh*
The censored words are "sh1tocracy" and "sh1tocrats".

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


No, I'm discussing. The fact that I don't always agree with you doesn't mean that I'm seeking a sparring partner or whatever.


I wrote: "They (and Poles) are also (surprisingly, I guess) more respectful and... I don't know... more gentlemanlike towards women than British men, for example (at least that's my observation)."

You wrote about Irish men being more respectful towards women than Poles and I pointed out that I was writing about British men, not Irish men.


No, I think you understood me in the opposite way than my intention was... ;) But nevermind.


Lots of must have changed since the time I visited Warsaw and Wrocław the last time, because I haven't observed anything like this - not even once.


Well, then I must say I'm honestly surprised. If it was so commonplace as you write I would have notice something like this, I would think.


Atch, maybe you're simply some stunning beauty by Polish standards :D


Of course there is and it's not meaningless. Russians use the word "Westerners" all the time :) I've adopted it from them because of the West vs "Eastern Europe" divide that I see all the time on this forum and elsewhere.


Atch, you just wrote that Italy and some other countries aren't "the West" anymore, according to you. So is there something called "the West" or isn't there? Because if there is, that would mean there are also the Westerners.


As a Pole I'm usually considered by the Westerners to be an Eastern European :)


That's right, I was told in Italy, I think, that the Northerners look down on Southerners. So there's not only the division into the West and the East of Europe, but also into the North and the South. And my impression is that according to Northern Westerners the East is worse than the South in this hierarchy :) We're in the worst "category" as far as Europe is concerned, as you put it :)


Well, I'm not sure what's wrong in having a relaxed attitude towards sex. Isn't it something that liberal Western societies are proud of? Because that would be my impression from what some British men were writing here (they were complaining, for example, that Polish women are too "vanilla" and not sexually liberated enough because of their Catholic upbringing, according to them, etc. etc.).


But you made it look like it was somehow something unusual :) At least that was my impression.

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


I'm asking a question, Atch :) You wrote that "Russian men being Slavs would be less inclined to look down on women of another Slavic nation". That would suggest that non-Slavs would be more inclined to look down on Slavs? Why would that be? Slavs look down on other Slavs too, for various reasons lol Some Russians look down on Poles, but for different reasons than Westerners. Some Poles look down on Russians also, usually for similar reasons for which Westerners look down on Poles, funnily enough. Some Czechs look down on Poles, allegedly, because the Czechs are atheists and Poles are religious.

Everybody is looking down on somebody in this world, I'm afraid :)


No, I didn't. I wrote that there's a stereotype concerning Polish and Eastern European women in the West. Eastern European doesn't equal "Slavic".


But I didn't write about Irish men. I wrote about British men. I have nothing to say about Irish men because I haven't met any, as far as I know, and on PF they seem to be in minority.


Of course! lol
Some Westerners get married only to the exceptions to the rule among the Polish nation, it seems ;)))


What do you mean by that?


I don't generally see Polish men doing that either o_O Where did you see that?
As for the vibe - I know it, because I've experienced it myself. Not in Poland though. I've experienced it in Italy (fortunately I didn't know Italian so I didn't know what they were shouting at me lol). Polish men are nothing like this, at least where I live.


Again, I haven't observed any such a thing... Unless you mean some nasty old grandpas in some God-forgotten village then maybe you're right.

Btw, I can spot a Westerner only by the disturbing way they look at the women here in Poland. I've already written about this on PF once. A Polish guy, if he passes by a beautiful woman he turns his head once after her and that's it. In case of Western men - they gape into women as if they haven't seen a woman in their lives. The woman doesn't even have to be beautiful - which puzzles me even more. Even if a man is young and handsome and walking with and talking to a pretty girl already he would be looking for an eye contact with the woman passing by them. For me that's sleazy, tbh.


Atch, to be honest, I had an impression that you were justifying those men in a way. And that you were being "deliberately obtuse" yourself.

I think the reason "why" is pretty obvious - you gave an example yourself - Thailand.
The tables are turned, for example, in Egypt. In Egypt it's the Polish women who are sex tourists nowadays. The reason is simple - economic situation in Egypt. One Polish woman who is married to an Egyptian man and lives in Sharm el-Sheikh, a city tailored for tourists, wrote on her blog that in November this year (the bombing of that Russian airplane was a big blow for tourism) an Egyptian man approached her Polish acquaintance at the Old Market and simply asked whether she needs "a slave". This guy was so desperate because of unemployment that he was ready to do anything for some food and a roof over his head.

It's always going to be like that with poorer vs richer countries.
But some men somehow refuse to realise this and think that it's somehow a "character trait" of Polish/Slavic/Eastern European women. And that's what I'm against.


Why is that? Most of the women I wrote about were sexually harassed in the UK and only one in Italy.


Why not? Was there some tectonic break up of Europe and those countries floated somewhere else? ;)


I don't know about "relaxed" attitude towards sex, to be honest, I was too young for that.
Lately I've seen a documentary about Polish martial law refugees on TVP1 and one of them returned for a brief moment with a Western humanitarian aid convoy to Poland and she said that the poverty was terrible. I myself remember, when I was a little kid, standing in a long line after meat in "sklep mięsny" with a stamp on my hand to prove that I'm "legally" in the line lol I remember the times when it was difficult to get toilet paper :/ I even remember being angry at my dad that he didn't bring it - I was convinced that he just didn't try hard enough to get it ;/ I was just a silly kid, little did I know...

So I'm not surprised, people could be pretty desperate.

TheOther, even if people in the communist countries had a more "relaxed" attitude towards sex than their western counterparts, I think what followed after the fall of communism was probably more crucial. Economic situation in Poland was dismal. In Russia it was even worse. Poles would try to get into the West to find work, legally or illegally, and, hence, sex trafficking was rife. Polish women would end up in brothels in the West and Russian women in Turkey. Apparently, Russian female name "Natasha" is a word for a prostitute in Turkey.

Nowadays, it's mainly the Romanian women who are sex trafficked in the West, apparently, judging by what I found out by watching Euronews

There were articles, documentaries about this stuff, films - for example: "Your Name Is Justine", "Trade" with Kevin Kline and a Polish actress - I recommend the second one especially. Apparently it was based on this article:

nytimes.com/2004/01/25/magazine/the-girls-next-door.html?_r=0


I really recommend reading the article, it's long but it's quite an eye opener. I needed a week to recover after watching that film "Trade". I must say I've seen a few documentaries on this topic about different countries and the extent of evil, cruelty and filth in this world is unbelievable.

So, to sum it up, I suspect it probably has a lot to do with the sex industry, actually.


Why offensive?


I'm not sure what's your point? It's not like there weren't women prostituting themselves in communist Poland lol Of course it was a taboo for communist governments because prostitution was seen as a capitalist exploitation of women but it doesn't mean that there weren't any people ready to sell their bodies for whatever they needed.

It's just in the West prostitutes had higher expectations in the payment department, for obvious reasons, I imagine and as TheOther wrote there were many things you couldn't get without Western currency. It probably can be hard to imagine for someone born in the West, but in those times a bottle of Scotch, a box of Western ciggarattes, a pair of jeans, a vinyl with Western music or simply dollars were "something", a kind of a "holy grail" in a way ;)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_Girl_(2012_film) - Sweedish film about what was going on in the 1970s, I've watched it on AleKino! some time ago, pretty gross stuff, especially that it's based on real political scandal.

After all, it's allegedly the oldest profession in the world and it was and it is present in whatever country and under whichever political system and regime.

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


So you would say Westerners are likely to look down on Slavs?


Russian men have some slight fascination with Polish women sometimes, at least those who grew up in the communist times, from what I've noticed. Maybe it's because of all those Polish actresses who played in Soviet films.

They (and Poles) are also (surprisingly, I guess) more respectful and... I don't know... more gentlemanlike towards women than British men, for example (at least that's my observation).


That would be my guess, but you would have to ask those men, not me...

Btw, Atch, you're not being terribly polite by writing about my "fits" all the time, just saying... :P


Atch, I don't care why this image came into being. It's no excuse. Women shouldn't be treated like this.
One of my friends worked as a waitress and lived in a room over a restaurant in which she worked in Italy. The owner had a key to her room and one night he was trying to get inside. She had to block the door with furniture so he wouldn't get in. That was f*cking scary for her!

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


Atch, InPolska is one of many Westerners who settled in Poland for their Polish partners. Many of those Westerners have similar attitude towards Poland and Poles despite the fact that their partners are alive. So, I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it.


To some extent you're right but it's the Polish and Eastern European women that seem to have such "reputation" in the West. I have never seen comments like this, for example, from Russian men about Polish women and I've been discussing with Russians for years...


The difference is, though, that I'm not making sweeping, ridiculous generalisations about Western men. You wouldn't see me writing that 99% of Western men are this or that (disgusting molesting pigs, for example), despite what my friends have been through, or that 99% of people in the West or anywhere else think this or that.


I could say the same thing about the British (at least judging by those on PF) :)


Can't say I can talk about a whole generation like I know everything... Aren't you generalising a bit?


Of course, and societies and people are changing too, I guess, due to all kinds of circumstances.

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]

That's nice of you, dolnoslask :) Maybe at some point you could try to talk him into getting some treatment...

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


I have no idea what this means...


Oh, I would say she does stick out among the "fighters for tolerance" with the stupidity and recklessness of her comments, to be honest.

As for Ktos and others like him - they are not fighters for tolerance, they're pretty straightforward about who they are and hence - not hypocrites (and they're usually beyond help anyway, my guess is).

In other words - I expect more from liberals and leftists in the tolerance department, from people advocating tolerance, etc. than from racist, intolerant people.


Are Westerners on PF any less "touchy" and less "quick to pick up on anything they perceive" as racist, anti-Muslim, anti-Semitic, etc, though? Really?

Btw, when there was and there is such need I behaved and behave in the same way when I'm defending Russians against Poles, when I'm criticising Poles on the Polish internet. I guess that's something people here don't realise about me and hence you probably think that I'm some overly patriotic, touchy person :) I'm generally a sensitive person, not only about Poles...


No, I was dismissive of your appeal to give her a break.


OK, Atch, let's talk about something real.
Let's talk, for example, about why I'm so "extremely touchy" and so "quick to pick up" on comments about Polish women on this forum. I see you registered not long ago, so maybe you don't know what was going on this forum before. What was written here about Polish women. Things like that being prostitutes is a "character trait" of Polish women and similar stuff. I guess you would probably say that those were just some "over the top things" and that it was "all very superficial". But those men who wrote those things could be one of those men that my friends told me about.

You see, I have female Polish friends and acquaintances, my age and younger, who worked in the West and most of them experienced sexual harassment and vulgar, offensive name calling by Western men when they were over there. No, none of them were prostitutes, in case you wonder, but all of them were attractive and Polish (and most of them in the UK). So, either being sexually harassing disgusting pigs is a "character trait" of Western men or the stereotypes and prejudices about Polish women being repeated by Western men from one to another have (and not being challenged by anyone, apparently - as it often was the case on PF) made so much damage that men think there's nothing wrong in viewing and treating Polish women like that.

So, yes, it's kind of personal for me - you didn't see their eyes when they were talking about this... (and, btw, that was their only complaint about the UK and British people, they never said a bad word about either). They are lovely, modest, normal, friendly girls and women - they didn't deserve any of that.

For you it's just "comments on the internet", but for me it's a sign of something more sinister.


Atch, in all honesty, I think it's simply her "character trait". (;))


Because she won't get it. She's not the reflective type, it seems. I think she needs some shock therapy :P


Not really, I guess I've adapted a bit of Harry-like style of hammering people on their heads after years of writing on this forum. Plus I don't have the time right now to word my comments in the most careful way.


Not me.

Do you even like him? Why do you call him your "friend"?

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


Her comments often are outrageous, to the point of being moronic. Her claim that 99% of Poles think that black people are apes is just one of the examples (I picked the most ridiculous one). What irritates me the most about her (together with all the loudest, most judgemental and self-righteous Western fighters for tolerance on PF) is her hypocrisy. She's against generalising about Muslims and other groups with "special protection status" in the West, but she herself is making the most ridiculous generalisations I've seen on the internet (about Poles and not only).


"But so what..." lol

So, if I start behaving like her and writing stuff like "99% of Jews think that Arabs are apes" (a nod to Naftali Bennett) I will be excused by you?

Or is it OK to write just anything about Poles, no matter how untrue and outrageous it is? Because it's about Poles, so who cares, right?


That's right, it was you who told people here to "give this woman a break". And I don't understand why. You think she's the only one on this forum who has someone burried in Poland and who had or has health problems? Why would she get a preferential treatment?


Why? Is she supposed to not to be criticised for anything on this forum because her husband passed away at some point in her life? Are you serious?


I understand that perfectly, but what does it have to do with a claim that 99% of Poles think that black people are apes made by her? Or her looking down on Polish and Eastern European women, for example?


Yes, thank you, Atch. Empathy towards Poles is something that quite a few Westerners were (and some still are) lacking over the years on this forum, in my opinion.

People seem to forget too often here that Poles are real, flesh and blood human beings, just like Muslims, just like Jews, just like blacks, etc.

It's not pleasant to be on the receiving end of the non-empathic comments, believe me.
I'm nice towards nice people and judgemental towards judgemental people. She's honest about what she thinks about Poles and I was honest about what I think about her (I haven't offended her husband in any way and I'm not going to write ridiculous, generalising comments about the French because of her). Nothing more.

She's not in her early teens, Atch (and that's what I thought when I first started reading her comments), she's apparently much older than I am, well-travelled, she should know better, she should realise what she's writing, she's not a kid that could be excused and so I see no reason to treat her like a child with "special needs". She does have fits of sanity and even wisdom, but for the rest of the time her behaviour is unacceptable for me, especially considering how judgemental and full of herself she is.

She didn't even retract any of her ridiculous comments, like the one I'm quoting all the time (in the hope that maybe she would understand her error and back out of it).

So how am I supposed to treat her seriously?


The fact that he said that doesn't mean that he is, clearly lol

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


Wow, the great mistery solved lol They moved to another city. Now, my question is - did they suddenly stop answering your messages and answering your calls the minute they set their feet on the soil of those other cities or it did happen gradually over time?

As I wrote before, I myself have problems with keeping in touch with people that moved abroad, for example. It's also more difficult to sustain a relationship even when someone is living in another city in the country. Such ties get "relaxed" over time and often they die a natural death. That's nothing surprising for me and nothing unusual in my opinion and I somehow doubt it's a specifically "Polish trait" and not a general "human trait".

My best friend from high school, for example, right after finishing high school moved to Paris to study art at the Sorbonne, because she loved art and French language and culture and it was her dream. For me it was a bit of a blow and I missed her a lot at first and we would write a lot to each other initially, letters and then e-mails and we would meet when she was coming to visit Poland but during a few years we both would write less and less frequently and at some point the contact just died. I was very busy with my studies, I've met my next best friend and other friends at the uni - life got in the way, as I wrote earlier. I can imagine the same happened to her.


That's something I don't entirely understand. If you were friends then how come you don't know where they are? You don't know where they live, where they work?


That's something I'm trying to determine :) It doesn't happen to me, it doesn't happen to people that I know - so it's logical to look for different theories.

It was dolnoslask, not Roger5 and he wrote it happens to him from time to time and that those people usually show up when they need money. Which brings me to the conclusion that they aren't really his friends, that's a no-brainer really.


Not sure how the comment about cleaning toilets was necessary - if you wanted to show your superiority to economic migrants from Poland then that's just low :)

Now, tell me - which countries and for how long?
Also, how people end friendships and acquaintanceships in your country and in the countries you lived in? Do they write long e-mails explaining why they are terminating their relations? Do you meet over a coffee and say something like: "Listen, here's the thing, I don't feel like hanging out with you anymore, I have more interesting friends now and/or just don't have the time for you, etc., sorry"?


As I already wrote, for those Poles not answering your messages may be the nicer way, in their view, of ditching you than telling you: "I don't want to hang out with you anymore, stop bothering me."


If you're asking whether such word exists, then yes - it does :) And there's nothing paranoid about it - one can be prejudiced against any ethnicity, including Polish one.


It doesn't change a thing, in my opinion, a person can be prejudiced, chauvinistic, etc. even if married to a Pole or any other ethnicity. It's weird, I know, but I've seen it before. It's a bit like a racist person claiming he's/she's not racist because he/she has a black friend while writing clearly prejudiced comments. Sorry, but that's just not enough for me. Don't hide behind your family, it doesn't work for me.


Why is that? Only you can be a "lecturer" on this forum? Noone can "lecture" you, hmm? :)


It's rich coming from one of the most judgemental people on this forum. Not pleasant when it's happening to you, huh? :) I'm "judging" people in the same way as others do that on this forum, including you, based on their comments - for example, when you're calling people "racist mob" you're judging them while knowing NOTHING about their lives, right?


I simply provided you with a few theories (some more serious ones, some not so much :)) based on the info you provided and your character traits you display constantly on this forum.

And I must say I find it hard to accept the assessment of the level of my intelligence from someone who claims that 99% of Poles think that black people are apes :)


The thing is, InPolska, that you were called a chauvinist (or a xenophobe, I don't remember exactly) by TheOther who's an Australian with German roots living in the US, who spent most of his life living in different countries and who isn't a racist nor a Pole. I've also seen you being criticised quite a few times by non-racist non-Poles on this forum. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to look in the mirror from time to time? Or are you just too perfect fot that? :)


YES, I knew it! lol Your husband was "different", of course :) Prejudiced people always say that, btw. "I have a black friend, but he's different, you know, and the rest of them... well... you know..." etc. :)


I'm sure there are Poles like that, but there's also the opposite side - Westerners for whom Poles just have to be the worst kind of people on the whole planet. I'm not kidding - the whole planet - it's like everything bad about humans is specific to Poles :)


I know, I was told the same thing by Russian nationalists who seemed to be pretty obsessed with Poland and Poles and at the same time they claimed they don't give a sh1t :) ;)


Well, you can bury your head in the sand if you wish, it's your choice, of course, if you prefer only to be patted on the back all the time and when people only agree with you, etc. But it's a public internet forum, so you must be prepared that people won't share your opinions, views, etc.

I also don't see anything "hysterical" about my post (feel free to quote the "hysterical" parts).


Paranoia concerning what exactly?


Aren't we discussing just that - common Polish character traits (at least as viewed by InPolska)?


I know, but I'm trying to make some people realise that they behave in the same way that racists, anti-Semites, etc. behave. That they're being hypocrites.

They accuse Poles of being "rude" because cashiers aren't smiling at them and at the same time - look at what they are writing about Poland and Poles behind their backs. I don't mean some founded criticism but the shear contempt verging sometimes on hate, some absoultely moronic generalisations like that "99% of Poles think that black people are apes". It's just mind-boggling for me.


Nor do I (not anymore, that is), I'm just trying to make some people look in the mirror.


Yes, me too, but that's changing, I think. I changed myself in that respect - after I actually got to know those foreigners and realised they are no better than Poles.


I hope so, but we'll see about that :)


My thoughts exactly.


So when I'll start telling on a forum about my personal problems, including my health problems, I'll be cut a slack too? lol

I don't see how her loss of a husband (I guess it didn't happen yesterday, did it) or her past health problems justify her often outrageous behaviour on this forum? Noone forces her to come here and write ridiculous stuff like "99% of Poles think that black people are apes". Also, noone here seems to care much about what Poles have been through over the years when they're passing their judgements, etc. People don't cut any slack here, so why should we, right?

What I've learned on this forum about Westerners is that there's no point in being nice to them, you're just going to be considered "thin-skinned", "oversensitive", etc. So I use their ways in order to get to them - one has to simply "hammer" stuff into their heads, apparently :P


Well, yes, it actually does make sense, especially if those were some loose contacts, acquaintances. Of course, the question is whether this happened suddenly or over a period of time, whether those people were close with each other, etc.


It depends on the circumstances. Did it happen suddenly or over a period of time? Plus, even brothers can fall out. There are members of family in this world that don't even speak to each other lol

And, OMG, not all relationships last forever. Sometimes they simply... end :P


When you have many friends and acquaintances? Sometimes quite a bit :) But I think they were trying to be polite. What were they supposed to say? That they didn't answer because they didn't feel like it and they wanted you to leave them alone and stop bothering them?


Yes, yes, you've made it clear many times how superior you are to Poles and how proud of it you are lol You also seem to feel some great need to share those feelings of superiority and pride with us on this forum :)


Are you saying that you're still loyal to your friends from kindergarten? ;D Come on...

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]

Even the media seemed to get fooled into thinking that PiS got wiser, at least a bit... Maybe it was just wishful thinking. And now it's like everyone suddenly woke up... lol

Well, we'll see what happens next...

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]

lol It's funny that an adult man can be so naive... Bashar al-Assad looks like a normal European politician, he even reminds me of that noble highlander from some Polish "mountain" beer commercial - and so what... All that glitters is not gold. I see past the surface...

Politicians may show more of their true face once they get the full power...
vimeo.com/25741586

It's always better to be safe than sorry... And to look at the hands of politicians... Even if they're from the political party that you like.

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


Indeed, I wouldn't. But the look in his face creeped me out. Just like what's going on in Poland right now. I don't want to live in another Orbanland or Putinland, I'm worried :(

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


Now that's a good question concerning not only Poles but also other nations. If I were God I'm sure I could answer it lol


Don't crack me up, Polonius3, not now lol I was observing Kaczyński, his bulging eyes, shining with unhealthy excitement and creepy smile during the discussion about the Constitutional Tribunal in the parliament and this scene sprang into my mind:

youtube.com/watch?v=e_DqV1xdf-Y
xD

Genealogy / What are common Polish character traits? [425]


I'm always amazed by this strange ability of people on PF - they always seem to stumble upon the worst kind of people in Poland lol I've never had a friend of mine asking me for money (or an acquaintance for that matter). I never asked them either.


Strange, if it's such a unique and startling "Polish trait" then why haven't I ever heard of it before? I mean, I've read all kinds of things about Poles on PF, the wildest and most ridiculous exaggerations and generalisations (including yours) but this is something new.


I was born here and I've been living in Poland all my life and it never happened to me.
The only thing I have a problem with, I admit, is keeping in touch with people who have become long-distance friends since they've moved abroad but that's simply because life gets in the way and it's easier to focus on what is near you. That's natural, imho, and happens everywhere.

So, since what you've described never happened to me I can only guess about the reasons and I have 4 awesome theories:

1. You're lying, just like when you claimed that 99% of Poles think that black people are apes.

2. Your relationships with those Poles were great only from your point of view. It's possible they weren't so great for them and so they put an end to it. Maybe when they got to know you better they realised how anti-Polish you are and sensed how much you dislike Poland (you admitted yourself that you don't want to live here) and they couldn't stomach it (and/or your personality) in the long run. You write that the reason for sudden loss of contact is due to the fact that Poles are "rude" according to the foreigners you know. In another thread you wrote that it's because Poles are "cruel" lol In my opinion it's the exact opposite. I often heard and read from foreign men how nice and "humane" Polish girls/women are in comparison to their Western counterparts when turning a guy down. I even remember Steffen Möller mentioning this when he was comparing Polish and German women. He said that a German woman would just bark out an angry "NO!" into the guy's face and make him feel like a looser while a Polish woman would take the guy's number when offered and would even say she'll call but she never would (which he found to be confusing and irritating, of course ;)). So, for a Polish person it's not "rude" or "cruel" - it's the opposite of being rude and cruel, actually. They think it's the nice way to resolve something like this. I may be wrong, of course, but I think Poles aren't very confrontational, they prefer to be nice then hurt someone. They may prefer to stay away from you then to tell you what's wrong, why they started disliking you, etc.

Btw, did you know these people at your workplace or outside of it?

3. It's a foreigner thing. Dolnoslask mentioned something about money, so maybe some people are a "friend" version of a gold digger lol But you haven't mentioned anything about money so I have no idea...

4. Those people actually died and that's why they didn't contact you :P I don't know, maybe they got hit by a car or were eaten by wolves in the mountains or those polar bears that walk the streets in Poland and drink vodka :P

Btw, InPolska, in what countries have you lived and for how long?


For all those years that you lived in Poland it happened to you 5 times and you write that this trait is common among many Poles? *smh*


That's how I often feel when I read your (and other) comments about Poles on this forum.


You are most annoying, prejudiced, chauvinistic, weird, immature for your age and full of yourself (sorry, but that's what I think). I do NOT understand how you "function" lol


I don't know what "rarely" is for you so I can't comment. In my opinion Poles are rather private people and it's possible they are more likely to invite people they really like and want to invite. On the other hand I've been invited by all kinds of people to their homes - by my family, friends, classmates, work colleagues... so... hmm... *shrugs*

Although I must say that in my experience people like to simply meet in cafes, clubs, etc. probably because you don't have to clean up your place and prepare the food and drinks then and another reason may be the fact that Poles often live in small flats and if one wants to invite even just a few people the place can get pretty cramped.


I agree with Ktos.

(always willing to explain the complexities of the Polish/human soul lol)

Wow, you can even find the info I provided on the internet on some British site! lol I googled "being invited by a Pole to home" out of curiosity and look what I found:

kwintessential.co.uk/resources/global-etiquette/poland.html

"Poles are known for being direct communicators, i.e. they say what they are thinking. However they are also very sensitive to other's feelings and let that determine how and what they say.

. While direct communication is valued in Poland, there is also emphasis on finessing what is said in order to deliver information in a diplomatic way.

. The level of the relationship mostly determines how direct someone can be.
. For newly established and more formal relationships, a great deal of emphasis is placed on diplomacy. Once a relationship has passed through the initial phases, people feel more comfortable speaking frankly with each other and animated exchanges become more common."

This is 100% true in my opinion - couldn't put it better myself o_O
Btw, this is probably one of the reasons why I often have problems with Westerners here - the way they write about Poles and Poland... I think many Poles would find it rude (verging on unnecessary cruelty) to write in such a way about a foreign country and people...

Life / Funeral Traditions in Poland [68]


Are you male or female?
Men should take off any hats etc. while inside.
In Russia, for example, women usually cover their heads.
You could use a scarf/shawl:
kolumber.pl/photos/show/golist:29575/page:41

I don't know if it's the same in Poland, to be honest. Here's apparently an Orthodox wedding ceremony in Poland and women aren't wearing anything on their heads *shrugs*:

blog.fotomarko.pl/2009/07/prawoslawna-ceremonia-zaslubin

But better take a shawl with you (if you're a woman), just in case. Apparently women should wear skirts (rather longer than shorter ;)) - that's the tradition or sth but I don't know if it's so strict nowadays.

General info:
antiochian.org/content/first-visit-orthodox-church-twelve-things-i-wish-id-known

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]


I would interpret it in the context of the rest of his post that you partly quoted: https://polishforums.com/history/poland-terrible-past-jews-57810/11/#msg1471081

I even did that to some extent in my previous post but you still don't get it?
I don't know, maybe you need to be a Pole to understand what he was trying to do...
So, am I supposed to explain at length, again, just like I explained things in my post #356 why Poles who are not anti-Semitic write the things they write?


There was no "therefore".
It was simply his response to you mentioning the throwing out of Germans from Poland (quote from your post: "After May 8th, 1945 ... ").


It's still there (#352).


No, to be honest I don't see sarcasm in that. That's the way I understand sarcasm:
"The use of strategies which, on the surface appear to be appropriate to the situation, but are meant to be taken as meaning the opposite in terms of face management." (from the definition of sarcasm in Wikipedia).

Unless you don't really mean what you wrote then I would agree with you since I'm not flogging any dead horse - I wrote what I had to say about it and I'm done.


Well then it was too veiled and vague for me, sorry. Seems to me Polonius3 didn't get it either since he asked "When were those Lutherans expelled?"

Next time maybe ditch the "British way" of asking a question and try the straightforward Slavic way - simply ask the question...
I've interpreted what you wrote, or rather your intentions, in a completely different way than you're explaining it here.
I don't know, maybe we need here some kind of Western to Eastern and Eastern to Western translator lol


Unlike you about what Polonius3 wrote? lol :)


lol
No, I don't think that and I doubt that is what Polonius3 meant. Actually I'm pretty sure that's not what he meant. Nothing of what he wrote indicates that to me. You're connecting his posts in a way that is completely weird to me.

In case I'm wrong, why don't you simply ask Polonius3 whether he meant what you think he meant?


o_O
Jesus effin Christ...
Next time you'll write that I sound like I'm a camel and I will have to explain myself that I'm not a camel... xD

I honestly have no strength for you, TheOther... :) What the hell is wrong with you?
I wrote about historical facts because the overrepresentation of Jews in directorship of the MBP in 1944-1954 is a historical fact and you seemed to be undermining it: "The MBP numbers above are to be taken with a grain of salt then."


You didn't. Not the first and most probably not the last time either...


Gee, I hope you don't make a living as a comedian.
And I'm a PO voter if you have to know. My very first parliamentary election I took part in was when we voted PiS out of power - and that was the sole reason I participated in it, actually - just to get rid of PiS :)


Why on Earth would I waste my time like that? If you know about Polonius3' post that would shed new light on what Polonius3 wrote on page 11 then, by all means, direct me to it.


True, the same can be said about all the rest of the countries of "the communist block" that were "liberated" by the Soviet Union and countries like Estonia that were incorporated into the Soviet Union against their will.


Yup.


I meant that you did misunderstand what I wrote... It's late and I'm tired, sorry ;P

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]


I haven't read the whole thread, but I've read the posts you picked and I still don't know what's your point? What does Marek11111 and Varsovian have to do with Polonius3, me and Vox? They're Polish? Such connection is enough for you?


Help me with what? I wrote in one of my posts that "there are some really hopeless cases of anti-Semites who see Jews in probably every communist that ever lived in Poland". Marek11111 is a great example of that lol But what those posts from 3 years ago have to do with the present discussion? Polonius3 didn't write that "after ww2 90% of Polish communist ware Jews". He didn't write that "people of Jewish faith are genetically predisposed to become a bloody communist, inflicting terror on his country" and I haven't seen him blaming Jews "for the communist era in Poland". After he gave the statistics concerning the ethnic makeup of MBP directors in 1944-1954 he then wrote in the same post "Can we blame them? Of course not. War and its aftermath brutalizes everyone and makes survival the supreme goal." He wrote both about Jews serving the Soviet-imposed regime and Polish szmalcownicy during the Nazi occupation.

Although I can't really entirely agree with him that we "can't blame them". My grandfather's family didn't turn into "szmalcowniks*" or anything of this sort despite the fact that they were starving. They were farmers but they were literally starving, because Germans were taking all the food. My grandfather's teenage sister died because they had no money for a medicine. "Such was the poverty at that time" - my mum said.

And I don't think you had to necessarily be a MBP director to survive in post-war Poland. People simply made such choices.

* szmalcowniks (org. szmalcownicy) - those Poles who were giving out Jews to the Nazis for money and were blackmailing Poles who were hiding them and giving them out too - I'm sorry but for me they were the scum of this Earth and they were regarded as such by the Home Army (Armia Krajowa)

That's what the term "szmalcownicy" means, Polonius3. They weren't just people who were "taking over Jewish property" o_O


No, this is called pettiness. Your "sarcasm" was uncalled-for and had nothing to do with Polonius3' comment. Polonius3 was writing about religious tolerance in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. What on Earth does it have to do with events after the end of the World War II??


What does this smiley change exactly?

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]


Which things "don't leave room for interpretation" and by whom were they presented exactly? What are you talking about, TheOther?


Where are all those people who see the things you see then? For now I only see you making some wild and false assumptions about views of people writing here (including me) and some of your comments simply don't relate to what people are writing (like the one about Lutherans).

Maybe read again what was written, but this time without prejudice?

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]


Well, that's not a very helpful feedback, jon357... How am I supposed to know which points I made are "very interesting" and which are "repetitions of things refuted by people earlier" according to you?


Thank you, Polonius3, I'm glad that someone appreciates the effort I put into this :)


So what? It wasn't used this way this time. Just because some morons use this or that to support some false notions normal people are supposed to negate historical facts?


I wrote "Westerners", not "silly Westerners".


No, it doesn't - I'm sorry, the Other, but it's all in your head. Polonius3 simply stated simple facts - statistics - it's up to you what you'll make of those facts.


*facepalm*

Well, the Other, if I ever actually say something like that, feel free to tell me in my face that I'm not worthy to even bow my head over the bones of those Jewish officers buried somewhere under the birch trees of the Katyn forest.

Does this answer your question...?


No, why would you even ask such a question? Polonius3 wrote, I quote: "no religious groups was ever expelled from Poland".
Germans after the World War II weren't thrown out of Poland for being Lutherans and you made it sound like they were.


To be honest, I don't think I've seen Jews being "blamed for the communist era in Poland" even by Polish nationalists on the Polish internet. The Soviet Union is blamed for "the communist era in Poland" (maybe you're confusing it with Russian nationalists blaming the Bolshevik Revolution on Jews?).

If anything, Jews are being blamed for serving the communist regime. But Poles who did that are blamed for this too. There are some really hopeless cases of anti-Semites who see Jews in probably every communist that ever lived in Poland lol But I don't see anyone doing this during our discussion in this thread so... why are you even bringing this up? o_O


Where that quote says that no (ethnic) Pole ever served the communist terror apparatus?

I have to agree with Vox, here, the Other. It seems to me you're discussing not with us but with some people in your head or with ghosts from PF's past. Please, maybe try to focus on what people are actually writing here and now...

History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland? [930]



So, can you enlighten us on this matter, jon357?


So what? Polish kings were usually to some extent a product of the Polish society and there was a period of Polish history when they were elected by the nobles.You think the British aren't proud of their, for example, Elizabeth I of England? It seems to me they are. It looks like they're even proud of Elizabeth II, although I'm not entirely sure why.

There were kings in Polish history that Poles are proud of and there were kings that Poles are ashamed of.
Are Poles allowed to be ever only ashamed of everything?
It's tiring and depressing, you know?
Every nation has a need to have something positive in their history, some kind of positive heritage, something that a nation could take an example of even. Having something like that is healthy for the collective psyche of any nation.

When I was at school the tolerance of the Polish Crown (shown not only to Jews, but also to others, like, for example, Scots,both Catholics and Protestants) and a kind of multiculturalism of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was being presented as something positive, an example that should be followed and I think it's a good thing.

One more thing - if Poles are giving examples of relative tolerance of Poland in some of its past they're usually not doing that to take some kind of credit for that or whatever, but to show we're not some kind of "genetic anti-Semites" or "genetic intolerant bastards" or "genetic monsters" or "genetic whatever". Because we feel that there's some kind of label put on us and we're tired of this. OK?


All of them? Always? How do you even know that?


As opposite to Germans, right? lol I don't think it's a fair statement, yehudi - the Polish society after the partitions wasn't the same as the Polish society before the partitions. So I don't think it's OK for us to say that after Poland regained independence Poles somehow showed their "true colours" (if that's what you mean).

Btw, did you know about the Pale of Settlement ? If you (and others) didn't then I wrote a bit about it here:
https://polishforums.com/history/poland-european-anti-semitism-29186/6/#msg1462696
You think such thigs didn't affect Polish society? Of course they did.
Do you remember the town of Chmielnik I wrote about in one of the threads on PF? It's in my region, not that far from Kielce, "the pogrom city". Polonius3 mentioned Arians, the Polish Brethren who were members of the Minor Reformed Church of Poland, a Nontrinitarian Protestant church that existed in Poland from 1565 to 1658. In the 16th and 17th centuries Chmielnik was a major centre of Polish Protestants (Calvinists and the Polish Brethren). On the basis of privilege granted by Krzysztof Gołuchowski in the second part of the 17th century the town was populated by Sephardi Jews expelled from Spain. They built a synagogue in 1638 and took over houses and shops of the Polish Brethren expelled from the town in 1658.

Nowadays they are probably no Jews in Chmielnik and most probably no Protestants either.
Societies change during the course of history for all kinds of reasons. Look at Germans.
Today's Polish society is different than it was centuries ago, it's even different than it was before the war. It's already different than the post-war society even.

Other European societies change too, not necessarily for the better. I've heard the right is on the rise all over, UKIP won the election to the European Parliament in the UK, Le Pen's National Front won in France, there's Orban in Hungary and let's not forget the "lovely" Mr. Putin in Russia...

Things change, people, panta rhei...
And we can turn the table, too, history is a b1tch this way, I guess lol Or maybe it's God giving the humanity a poignant lesson in humility - once the Jews got their own state look at what they're doing to Palestinians... Jews aren't a nation of victims anymore, nowadays they are a nation of perpetrators (and that's nothing new really - victims turning into perpetrators - it's as old as humankind, I guess). I'm writing this with all seriousness and sadness (and disappointment too, to some extent). In 50 years time or more your grandchildren will have to "świecić oczami", as we say in Poland, for what Israel/Israelis did and is/are doing. Of course there are and there will be justifications being given, explanations (they always are), just as I am explaining things to you and as some others are giving justifications. And some will be in total denial. As many in Israel are now, probably.

I don't usually use this argument but sometimes I have an impression that some people need a reality check form time to time.


If they are differentiated on other occasions (usually by you, Westerners, and by Jews themselves) than why not in this case too?


What faith? lol They were communists.


Why is that? Those numbers are based on ethnicity, not nationality.


Aren't they of the same ethnicity? Jews in Poland weren't just of different faith but also of different ethnicity. And what about Catholic Jews? lol They weren't (and aren't) ethnically Jewish?


Were they expelled for being Lutherans? Nope.


Yes and this can be said of members of any ethnicity. Lately I've read about Baruch Steinberg, Chief Rabbi of the Polish Army during German invasion of Poland in 1939 who, like many other Jewish officers, was murdered in the Katyn massacre by the Soviets in April 1940.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Steinberg

I can imagine there were some Jewish members of the NKVD shooting their religious brothers in their heads.
Now, can we move on? I don't think anyone claims in this thread that there were no (ethnic) Poles serving the communist terror apparatus.

As for differentiating between Jews and Poles - it's a complicated matter. There were in the past and are Jews who didn't and don't consider themselves Poles. They consider themselves "Polish Jews" at best. Yesterday I've read an interesting note of Ela Sidi at her blog - she's an author of a book "Izrael oswojony" (I guess it could be translated as "Tamed Israel") - it's about everyday Israel and Israelis seen through the eyes of a Pole living there. She's a gentile who married an Israeli and has been living in Israel since 1991. She asked her fellow "Poles" (Jewish ones) who moved to Israel whether they consider themselves Poles, part of Polonia abroad. To her surprise (and disappointment, I guess) most of them answered "No", despite those people were born and bred in Poland, speaking Polish among themselves in Israel, always interested in Polish culture and even taking part in creating it and popularising it, visiting Poland often, missing the country where they were born. It's an interesting note, maybe I'll translate it one day and post it on PF (but that's a big "maybe", because it's freaking long lol).

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]

"Polsko! (...) Pawiem narodów byłaś i papugą"

(Poland! (...) You were the peacock and the parrot of nations)

*Juliusz Słowacki, "Grób Agamemnona", 1839

:)))

That's all I have time for right now, so I will leave you with this, see you in the evening probably :)

*Juliusz Słowacki - he was one of the Three Bards (the national poets of Polish Romantic literature)

Life / Are Poles mentally more Eastern European or Western European? [170]


I will tell you some strange thing - Russians often sound as if Russia is a different continent altogether ;D It's not "Europe", it's not "Asia" it's just Russia ;) They say "I'm going to Europe for holidays this summer" :) As if Russia wasn't in Europe at all :) And all of this despite the fact that the European part of Russia is culturally definitely European...

*shrugs*

People and their definitions and labels and points of view, huh... :)