Warsaw Rising 1944 - National Disaster or Triumph of Spirit ?

You missed point....as usual.
We're commemorating the Warsaw Uprising of 1944!

Who missed what point?
Please explain.

Warsaw Uprising was, as it says in the title, national disaster and triumph of spirit in one. What else?

If 200,000 dead Poles was a triumph, "spirit" was an ass.

@Novichok
200,000 dead Poles was a disaster but everything else was a triumph of spirit and this is priceless.

A simple test...Would anyone sane be in favor of repeating it?
We "triumph" over something. What did that "spirit" triumph over that was worth 200,000 dead and a city in ruins? Personal fears? For this, we have pills and psychologists.

As I said before, the Uprising was an anti-Soviet gamble and the Polish side lost - first to the Germans because they were stronger and, later, to the Soviets because they were smarter.

No monuments and speeches will ever change these facts.

It was a triumph in later years. In 1956 and 1980 Soviets were considering an invasion of Poland to crush freedom aspirations of the society, remove the ruling communists who seemed too weak to Soviets and replace them with party hardliners. Eventually, Soviets decided to discuss hot points rather than use military force coz they remembered Polish ferocious resistance during Warsaw Rising. They realised that Poles would put up a fight. Like heroic Ukrainians today.

Spiegel weekly cover 1980

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@Alien
Of course, not much could be done about disaster part, only fools and ignorants would think Nazi Germans wouldn't round up every grown up male and "shipped" them to concentration camps after building defensive structures for them in Warsaw (which wasn't an option). Cowards escaped Warsaw, rest stayed. Heroes fought, there was no other option. At least a little bit of freedom was tasted in those hellish times

@Novichok
Pawian was ahead of me and gave in #307 a right answer.
@Kashub1410
Novi was a "small" insurgent.🪖

Novi should apply to the Polish embassy for recognition as a veteran and maybe he would even get a medal and a pension.

Nice gesture of the German gov.
The German Embassy announced that in connection with the 79th anniversary of the outbreak of the Warsaw Uprising, flags will be lowered to half-mast in all diplomatic missions in Poland.

"Today, on the anniversary of the outbreak of the Warsaw Uprising, all German diplomatic missions in Poland lowered their flags to half-mast as a sign of mourning and shame. We remember the victims, let their fate be a warning for us for the future. Never again!" - we read on Twitter of the German embassy."

...them and the smart ones who knew that WW2 would be won by the big dogs regardless if they are dead or alive.


The only shameful thing was AK trying to kill the Germans as they were getting ready to start packing. All AK had to do is wait...and say, Welcome to Warsaw. Berlin is this way...when the Germans were all gone.

The idea that the WU would prevent Poland from becoming a Soviet colony was so naive...

It is 17 hours. Sirens are wailing in Warsaw.


We know it today. In 1944, people didn`t have this knowledge.

They sure did and that's why AK did the WU trying to prevent it. There was no other logical reason.

There are hundreds of Rising memorials all over Warsaw. At one of them they held a ceremony during which a deputy mayor of Warsaw said:

- It was here, on that beautiful August day, that you were sure at that hour that you were going for victory - said the deputy mayor of Warsaw, Tomasz Bratek, addressing the insurgents.

"You went into a frantic fight, sacrificing everything and paying no heed to anything. You went into the fight for the freedom that you loved so much, because you had been brought up in this way - he said. - This hard fight lasted 63 days. Today we light the fire of memory and during these 63 days we will remember your heroism, your devotion not only to Warsaw - he noted. - Unfortunately, this fight ended tragically - tragically then - because communism came and unfortunately this communism did not bring the desired freedom - he said. - But the testament and the message that you gave us during the days of the uprising helped us survive until 1989, when this real, longed-for freedom came - emphasized the deputy mayor of Warsaw.

- We will always remember - not only at 5 pm, when we will all stop here and throughout Poland - but we will remember for all subsequent generations - he said. - Warsaw today is beautiful, Warsaw today is great. (...) Thanks to you, this city - invincible Warsaw, the invincible city looks the way it does. And we promise you that all generations will remember your heroism, and your values ​​will remain deeply in our hearts - assured Tomasz Bratek.


I was talking about preventing, not Soviet colony.

...including me and I didn't like it one damn bit...

That's what reckless idiots do. People with functioning brains analyze risks and benefits. As I said so many times, all AK had to do was wait...and surface up when the Germans were gone and the Soviets didn't enter yet.

You and your politicians can talk this bs to death and it will still be the biggest mistake of the war in Poland. I do admit that my plan would be less romantic.

Or irresponsible weak leaders. They gave the order to enthusiastic youth instead of stopping them.


Who knows??

The Czechs also had their uprising and that's exactly what they did in Prague.

The film about it was 10 minutes longer than the rising itself. :):):)

What??? So it was "enthusiastic youth" with the frontal lobes of teenagers that were in control? You are scaring me...

It was the idiots like this that would shoot a drunk German soldier on the way home only to see a hundred innocent people executed the next day. Sensible Poles would actually escort that German to safety to make sure that nothing bad would happen to him - only to be called "traitors" by their countrymen.

They weren`t. But the general atmosphere among them was full readiness to engage Germans and at last repay for all their crimes during 5 year long occupation. Irresponsible leaders knew about these emotions and took advantage of them.

This guy has a good speechwriter.

As a Russian, it still breaks the heart to read about this wild uprising. We like to think we suffered the most at the hands of the Germans, but Poles may have us beat there. To imagine what those young people felt, when they had an opportunity for the first time in 5 years to kick the Germans in the teeth... crazy. The way it ended, just rounds out the brutal symbolism.

They were driven by the urge to take revenge on Germans for all atrocities. Warsaw had suffered the most under German occupation. Nazis claimed that without Warsaw, the Polish opposition to their plans for occupied Poland would diminish by 4/5.


Only a few wise experienced people correctly predicted the result.

That's what they do when they write "from their heart" instead of their brain.


Why? As a Russian, you should be relieved that somebody else bled the Germans in Warsaw in advance of crossing the river in January.


...and see 170,000 Poles die and the city destroyed for nothing other than a political gambit.
In our culture, we are never allowed to find faults in dead heroes. They become faultless untouchables regardless of the evidence to the contrary.

Yes:

In this country, we have one point from which every evil emanates. That point is Warsaw. If we didn't have Warsaw in the , we wouldn't have four-fifths of the difficulties with which we must contend. - German Governor General, Hans Frank, Krakow 14 December 1943

The uprising consumed enormous resources. It ground up nearly 5 divisions worth of Germans, and gave them a taste of something familiar. See below:

This is the fiercest of our battles since the start of the war. It compares to the street battles of Stalingrad.

- Heinrich Himmler, SS chief, to German generals on 21 September 1944.

Respect.

AK should have asked the Soviets when they were planning to cross and tell them about the planned uprising.
Yes, the Soviets could lie. That's why the WU should be postponed until the crossing of the river was in full swing.

Bobko, I am not sure whose interests you are trying to represent now.

Quoting:

Altogether, Polish losses during the uprising included 150,000 civilian deaths and about 20,000 Home Army casualties. The German forces lost an estimated 10,000 troops.

That's a very bad ratio and nothing to be proud of.

Only this uprising was ultimately planned against the Soviets. The insurgents hoped that the Germans would quickly withdraw from Warsaw, which they probably did not do due to Hitler's personal intervention.

I don't know...

I think Bor-Komorowski and Jankowski are criminals, but Stalin also did an ugly thing.

...and everybody knew it.
AK assumed that the Soviets were idiots - just as now stupid Poles assume that Russians are stupid "mongols". They never learn...

Poles are notorious for making one fundamental mistake when discussing wars...Never, ever call your enemy incompetent and stupid in case your enemy kicks your ass really bad.

Relax. See some photos from the celebration today. Do you know this sign???

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