Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond

Joined or drafted? :)

How many times do you need explaining this? Every other month? Being a Polish citizen does not make you an ethnic Pole, which is what are suggesting. But if you want to be consitant and that, you are forced to acknowlegde that 6 million Poles died during the war, and if ethnic Germans with Polish passports were drafted into the German forces and you call them Poles, then Jews with Polish passports were Poles also. Find another hobby, this is getting old. What does Volksdeutsche mean to you? German folk or Polish folk?

Every single one of them was pressganged and deserted at the first possible opportunity (which is odd given that desertion to join Allied forces was almost unheard of before D-Day).

I have absolutely no problem at all with agreeing that 6 million Poles died in the holocaust, never have and never will. Unlike some Poles, I think that it is as possible to be a Polish Jew as it is to be a Polish Catholic.

so they say

Oh they had but, none of those Poles wanted to co-operate. Even a right winged anti-Semitic organization which I can't recall the name of right now had a member whom was bribed by the Nazis (or forced idk) and he got a bullet in his head for the very idea.

Also there is a story about Goebbels wanting to make the Górale have their own mini state and saying that THEY were the original Poles and the Poles predecessors which stayed by their culture but you know what they did to that newly made mini states leader?? They got him and hanged him. Then Goebbels put that idea into the trash. (I wish I remember the links sorry but if you look hardly enough I bet you will find one)

Also Hitler and his crew had vassal states all over Europe even one they had invaded (France, Nazi-Norway etc)

So why not try to make those Poles whom a lot earlier won against the Soviet Union their ally or partner?

I bet they tried all they could!

They even had Russian troops... (a small faction considering the numbers of course)
But still a faction, while the closest time of co-operation between Poles and the Germans (Nazis) was in the eastern border when the German withdraw and they "forgot" some of their arms so that nearby AK forces could pick em up after they had told them their "forgetting" some stuff.

And that was only a single event! I can't recall that it happened quiet a lot. But it did happen, once...

Name me a nation/country which was occupied by the Nazis and the Nazis had a tougher time being there!

Just re-read this again. And then think about what you're actually saying. OF COURSE the risk for saving Jews was equally big in all the countries that were occupied by the Nazis. The Nazis had sth against the Jews, remember? The risk of helping a Jew was being killed yourself. And in most cases risking your family's life as well. Not only in Poland.

Why is is so hard for you and other Poles to accept that in other countries did their bit too, at the risk of their own life and that of their families as well? Do you really think that if the Nazi's captured you for helping a Jew, shot you in a prison, they would leave your family in peace? No way in cold hell, buddy.

It's like Stu says: you can only die once and in that respect the risk was in every country the same. Like I explained of often, the methods may have been different, but the endresult was the same.

But it's all too predictable. The number of Dutch in Yad Vashem is not that far distanced from that of the Poles. And they haven't also listed all Dutch who helped the Jews. Suddenly it seems like the Poles are not on a high pedestal all alone in that respect anymore. Everyone with a sense of fairness should be glad that so many ppl, not only from NL or PL, but from everywhere, were willing to risk their lives and that of their loved ones for the Jews. But yet everybody starts to rave and rant which proves that those who start ranting and raving feel their position somehow threatened. The position of Poland being the only country that suffered during WW2, the only country who's citizens risked their lives for helping Jews, in short, the only country who cared about their Jews. And that is what all these reactions are all about. Yet again a myth has been debunked and of course the reactions talk booklengths to prove this.


No, I cannot name another country where the Nazis actually left their weapons voluntarily to a resistance army. That resistance army must've been their favourite then, if you catch my drift.

>^..^<

M-G (doesn't know if Mythbusters is still on the Discovery Channel, but always loved to watch it)

You must have a problem reading English. I already told you that people in other countries did their part in saving Jews and had their hardships. I just never knew of an official Nazi decree to kill not only a person saving a Jew but his family also in countries outside of Poland. And forget about what I believe, I am not talking about Polish historians saying this but non-Polish and Jewish historians. If you can provide me with links backing up your claims as to what happened in these other countries, feel free to provide them to me. I already asked you this before.

First of all you are the fool using terms like " it seems Poles are not high on a PEDESTAL all alone in that respect" of saving Jews in your opinion. That's your ridiculous interpretation. You seem to just love putting the Poles on the defensive all the time and GOD FORBID anyone puts your Jews on the defensive.

To even bring up the notion that the Poles or anyone want to be on a "pedestal" in reference to saving Jews or ANY context concerning Jews shows that YOU are the one putting people on a pedestal. In your case the JEWS.

You come on this forum and everything in your mind is about putting JEWS on a PEDESTAL.

The focus of your conversations is primarily "WHO did good things for JEWS" or "WHO did bad things for JEWS". All you do is JUDGE people here BASED on how much or how little they put JEWS on a pedestal. You may think the world revolves around Jews but it does not. And Jews don't have a monopoly on suffering. The Holocaust just happens to be one of the favorite topics of media elites. Did you ever hear of the Holodomor? Over 8 million Ukrainians sufferred and died under Soviet thugs.

As for your preoccupation with "who saved how many Jews" from various countries, tell me, how many people have Jews saved from suffering and death? How many high powered Soviet Jewish communists saved innocent people from going to Gulag death camps including religious Jews?

I'm posting on an iPhone, so forgive me for not copy/pasting from your entire post. However, as to your question: I name Yugoslavia, a nation which fielded more than twice as many freedom fighters as Poland and which was the only nation in WWII to (largely) free itself.

Yugoslavs certainly deserves praise for their resistance against Germans, when the former eventually stopped cooperating with the Nazis.

Yugoslavia: smaller numbers of German soldiers, much smaller losses of trained military personnel, terrain much easier for underground operations, de facto recognition by the US and UK leading to significant material support by the allies.

Poland: Significantly larger German (and until 1941 also Soviet) forces, less favorable terrain, significant military losses to two WW2 powers, lack of material support by any allied forces,


So... who freed the USSR?

No, point is that contrary to nowadays western media gospel, Poles actually made an enormous effort , sometimes organized, sometimes not, but always with enormous risk for themselves and their loved ones.

Secondly that circumstances in Poland under German occupation made this effort the most difficult - thingy you have a problem to understand.
I like to add that your biased view of Jews is the very myth which is begging to be busted.
Topic like Jewish police, Jewish Gestapo agents, not even brushing situation that saved Jew pointed their savers from Polish underground to Soviets.
Shouldn't be the myth that Jews were always the victims and if have done wrong their are justified by circumstances be the very focus of your attention, and your motives would be a less in doubt than your focusing on Poles and their deeds.

The only conclusion from your liberal ?! and "fair" ramifications is that nobody should be bothered to do a moral and good deed as it doesn't matter for a firm myths busters what you did but are you a right kind of person (or country ) to deserve credit.

If you are from Poland you should kill Jews, join German army and think about surviving and make some money because at the end you are just stupid peasant, reeking of dirt and vodka and you deserve no better.

On the other hand there is race of the masters - Dutch !
They are so liberal that they allowed even Jews to call themselves Dutch - don't they deserve all the prise ?


Sure, Harry anybody but Poles:) whadya think simpletons that they could do something better than anybody else phew!
I-S (phew!)

You're the one who was claiming that the Nazis had a tougher time in Poland than in any other country.

-.-

Enemy of my enemy is my friend? Ever heard of it?

Do you honestly think those Poles would leave all that equipment and not take it at all? It wa deliberately so that it would "force" the AK forces to prolong the soviet advance, although they prioritized fighting other partisan units instead.


No, that was me ehrkhm *cough*


That could be one of the options for sure, I will ask Crow if he knows more on the subject about the hardship of German soldaten am Jugoslavien :)

You really didn't understand what I was saying, it shows.

PS: if you don't want to be in the defensive all the time, learn to accept that Poles are not a kind of mythical ppl. That is the problem with you posters here. You lose track of reality. I'm only here to remind you of that. And it works, as it shows.


I repeat, I have never heard of instances before where this happened.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

I repeat: yet another Polish myth debunked. We're nearly at the point when we will start considering the Poles as a normal ppl, With all their faults and mishaps, but also with all their good sides. Too bad that some on this forum cannot accept that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

LOL

There you go again. Mischaracterizing me.

That's your twisted interpretation of things when you say I think "Poles are a mythical people". I never said that and I dare you to find where I said anything even close to I think "Poles are a mythical people". Actually there have been several times when I have criticized Poles like when I criticized those Poles who are criminals and act like hooligans in England.

No defending Poles from certain Jewish bigots who get an adrenaline rush by constantly accusing the Poles of "anti-semitism anti-semitism anti-semitism blah blah blah" does not make me think "Poles are a mythical people".

Have you ever criticized the Jews?

I don't think "Poles are a mythical people" when I point out what Poles did for Jews including ALLOWING most of the world's Jewish population into Poland when virtually all other countries kicked Jews out. Or pointing out that there was a good reason why Jews CHOSE to live in Poland for ONE THOUSAND years. Or that the famous rabbi Moses Isserles said "If it were not for Poland the existence of the tribe of Israel would have been unbearable".

Frankly I point all this out not because I think according to you "Poles are a mythical people" but in REACTION to those who joyously like to slander Poland and accuse Poles of "anti-semitism this" and "anti-semitism that" so that Poles should feel indebted to Jews.

You really didn't understand what I was saying. That is not a shame, only a few do, but it would be better if you said you didn't. Myself or other ppl here might just bother to explain to you what is obvious.


Where exactly do I state that it's anti-semitism?


Ah look! You're just crying because I showed that the Poles are not alone in their goodness towards Jews. Yes I did criticize the Jews. On plenty occasions. Read my response to that Peace flotilla thing. But, what does this alledged defending of Jews has to do that NL is very close to PL when it comes to saving Jews?

No matter what you say, it will only make me laugh. I have shown, by simply putting down the figures that the Poles were not the only ones who were kind to Jews. In fact, a little country down by the sea with roughly about 1/4 of the Polish population has only 1200 entries less in Yad Vashem than the glorious Poles who's entire life revolved about saving Jews and were in fact goodness itself towards Jews and got shamefully betrayed by those very same Jews who had the nerve to survive the Holocaust and had the guts to claim back their houses after they were taken over by the Poles. And besides that, we've seen how good Poles were towards Jews after the war.

haaretz.com/news/historian-threatens-to-reveal-polish-atrocities-against-jews-if-tried-for-slander-1.237256

foreignaffairs.com/articles/58254/abraham-brumberg/poles-and-jews

But I am sure you won't read these stories as it's kinda negative for your image of the Poles.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Another example of your mischaracterizing of me.

Do understand English? For the third time, I already said to you, I agreed with you that people from other nations had hardships in saving Jews and deserve credit. Also why do you mischaraterize my request of you to show me links where the Nazis decreed that saving a Jew outside of Poland was punishable not only by death of the person saving Jews but of death of his whole family? Why do you consider that to be me "crying" for simply asking you to provide me with information where in other Nazi occupied countries the Nazis decreed that saving a Jew was punishable by death and death of his family?

But why are you so fixated on people who saved Jews?? Why not ask the opposite question and ask how many Jews in the world risked their lives (like people who saved Jews) to save non-Jews???

This for example.

I do understand English, probably better than you do. It freaking doesn't matter how long Jews lived in PL, even if it were a million years. It's irrelevant to the topic at hand.


Because that question has been asked over a dozen of times. Jews were simply not in a position to help other ppl, so putting that question forward is basically ignoring the fact that Jews could not help other ppl as they themselves were in the most hunted position during WW2. It also implies trying to get one's own plate clean.

Compare: "I saved the kid, and I saved the other kid as well." "yeah but, what did the kid to save you as a grown up?". It's exactly the same.

>^..^<

M-G (who would've thought that simply putting forward the fact that NL put nearly the same effort in saving the Jews as PL did, would meet such resistance)

Oh really?

You say Jews were never in a position to help other people? Even all those high ranking Communist Jews that had the power of life and death over so many of the citizens of the East European countries they lived in?

Even the powerful communist Jews that Stalin installed throughout Eastern Europe who could have prevented the trains going to the Soviet Gulag concentration camps? Or at least they could have made less trains and less innocent people tracked down to go to the Soviet death camps.

Stalin's Jews: ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

This is about the WW2 years, not the years after WW2. You guys always mix that up. Stop mixing that up. This is about the period 1939-1944/45 ('44 for PL, '45 for NL). What happened afterwards, happened afterwards and cannot be used as explanation for earlier events.

You give reasons or explanations that happened after the events. Sounds a bit weird, huh?

>^..^<

M-G (nobody still has answered the intrinsical question)

I don't want to provoke a mighty opponent myself, so please ask M-G about the role of Judenrat in the Nazi Germany...

-----

Uff... I am late, I know, but that's all your fault. 7 pages with references is not a small thing.

edit:


hm, there's that bit of history of the Soviet occupation of Eastern Poland, starting in 1939...

Finally, a neutral comment that has answered my intrinsic question. Appreciated and thanks for that, my friend. Your post pretty much sums up what I wanted to hear.

>^..^<

M-G (is making a new tune for the first time since weeks!)

Are you a musician?

A hobbyist musician, yes.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Um, a bit unexpected... don't want to be rude, but I am not your friend (yet, possibly). Actually, you irked me a lot with many of your comments, but, as I already said, I blame the media for (most) of it. I am not your enemy either, to make it clear.

Care to comment about my reservations re Yad Vashem list?

It's a figure of speech, nothing more.

I will comment on your remarks later on, have to go now. I am already late.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

What are you talking about?

My link from the Israeli newspaper Ynet on the article "Stalin's Jews",

ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

showed how Stalin put Jews into power all over Eastern Europe during and after WWII especially in the capacity of killing the enemies of Stalin which was numbered in the millions of Eastern Europeans. The article stated how high powered communist Jews abused their power and used it to hurt non-Jews by helping to facilitate the movement of millions of East Europeans into Soviet Gulag Death camps. In light of this, don't you think there were family members of these East European victims that resented what these communist Jews did? I know you probably never read this in the Left-Wing Communist NY Times or lamestream media, but these Communists Jews did in fact do all these horrible things in Eastern Europe. Eastern Europeans have always known this.

Also Stalin stacked Poland with many Polish Jews in positions of leadership (like in other E. European nations) after WWII since he knew they generally had little loyalty to nationalist Poles/nationlist E. Europeans and had loyalty to he and the Soviet Union first. Do you want me to name these Polish Jews? These Polish Communist Jews were helpful in precipitating stunts in Poland (and other E. European nations) to create frictions between East Europeans and Jews so that the Soviet Union could then broadcast this to the world as some of the "reasons" its OK for the Soviet Union to occupy these E. European countries. Even though hypocritically in later years, the Soviet Union then started to purge out Jews from its leadership positions.

As I recall, Stalin wasn't in power in Poland between 1941 and 1944. I know the Poles were pyssed off by certain Jews (surely not all of them) who welcomed the Russians in 1939. But I just wonder how much Jews did this and why they did this. Sure, there were communist elements which welcomed the Russians, but if ordinairy Jews did this, and given the posts on this forum about this specific topic I am lead to believe that also ordinairy Jews welcomed them, there must be a specific reason for that. One reason is clear: those ordinairy Jews were simply happy that it was the Russians who came and not the Germans as they knew what the Nazis did to the Jews. However, this reason has been dismissed by most of the posters here. There must be some other reason then. Because I don't believe that Jews without any reason will welcome an invading force in a country that has always been very good to them. Care to enlighten on this one?

@nott:

To reflect on your remarks about Yad Vashem, of course it's a mainly symbolic gesture. But the ppl who are on there certainly have done good to the Jews. And that's why I consider it an indicator of how well locals treated the Jews in life-threatening circumstances. An indicator also of the fact that there are certainly good and decent elements in a society, just as well as there are bad elements, which joined the occupator's forces, for example.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

An indicator, yes. Rather roughly, and quite indirectly, indicating the actual situation. Not something that would back up your statement 'I am quoting documents and hard numbers, where's your data.' Innit :)

An indicator of the memory of the saviours being dear to the Jews, as well.

I tried to find out when it all started, and just popped into the Yad Vashem site:


Shortly, the real picture of who was saving Jews may wildly vary from what the list seems to suggest. What it says is only: 'These people applied or were recommended, and their applications met our requirements'.

---------------------


Are you sure about it? The Kristallnacht happened less than a year before, and it was the first such a 'big' pogrom. Hitler was furious when he learned about it, because he wanted to stay palatable to the West up until the very beginning of the war. Even if, then how being happy that the allegedly lesser evil happens does justify cooperation with the invaders against their fellow countrymen? Must've been some other reason.

But that's what I also said:


See? :)

>^..^<

M-G (is going out for a pint in the Slovak pub/dancing/nightclub/whatever next-door, also to see some nice looking young ladies)

I am 100% polish, i speak polish fluently, and I have lived half of my life in the states and the other half in other countries. So I can say that I have been around. I used to have this "polish pride" and got so angry when someone said something bad about Poland or Polish people. The more time I spent around Polish people and living in Poland,(im including my family sadly) I realized that I too dont like Polish people myself. Now I am generally ashamed to be Polish, the only good thing about being polish is having a EU passport. The more time i spent around polish people, I realized that they are by far the most negative and backward thinking group of people I have ever met. They confront everything with a negative and realist perspective. All they do is complain, mainly about life, politics, and money. If they spent as much energy on actually taking a risk in life or doing something great as they do on complaining, perhaps Poland would be a stronger nation today. I would agree with anyone who argues Polish people are very well educated, in all actuality they are among the top 5 most educated young people in Europe. The problem is due to their backward mentality all that education will mean nothing in the end. This does not pertain to every Pole, but I can safely say the majority. Through out history they have been whiners, it is probable because of that history they became that way, which is OK, but I mean after, now what 60+ years after the war, people are still crying about something. Whether it is the Russians did this or the Germans did that, SO WHAT!!! Any person who lives in the past during the present will never enjoy a future. And to say that, to not like polish people is being a racist, is quite the outrageous statement. As polish people are probably the one of the most racist nations in all of Europe. so haha to sum it up im acting really polish right now, by complaining about something. sorry for that.