Poles should apologise to Ukrainians first

I don`t believe you. You are still spreading putinist propaganda, like before. Did you learn it from your Ukrainian acquaintance? One swallow doesn`t make the summer so don`t talk about all most Rusyns.

There are about 1.7 million Rusyns in all Slavic countries, not only in Ukraine. Polish Rusyns are pro Ukrainian, not pro Russian.

@pavian
Please keep posting the history of polish-ukranian relations, both good and bad I am very interested.

For a few centuries, Poland stopped expanding due to internal problems when the state was divided into smaller duchies which competed with each other. It lasted for about 200 years. In this time, a new power grew in the East - the Duchy of Lithuania!!! Over decades, it conquered amazing amounts of land in the east, including nearly all Rus with Kyiv. The size of today`s France, Spain and Germany counted together.

Check their conquests

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Lithuanians also tried to expand into Polish lands and Poles had a big problem with it.coz settlements near the border were regularly raided by Lithuanian warriors. Poles had a clever idea of pacifying that belligerent tribe by making an alliance with them.

The alliance commenced when a Lithuanian Prince was invited by Polish elites to become the king of Poland. I am talking about Vladislav Jagiełło, one of the greatest kings of Poland. Yes, he was Lithuanian but thought and acted like a Pole. E.g, he led Polish-Lithuanian- Rus armies to the battle with the mortal enemy of Poland and Lithuania - the Teutonic Knights. The battle at Grunwald 1410 put an end to Teutonic Knights` dreams of conquering the East and allowed both Poland and Lithuania to prosper as the Polish Lithuanian Commonweatlh for the next two centuries.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commonwealth

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  Jagiełło
  

What am I supposed to do about that?

Rusyns hate Ukrainians, who try to Ukrainize them for the last century or so. For Ukrainians, the existence of Rusyns complicates the story of their ethnogenesis. It would be much simpler to pretend that they don't exist.

As I already mentioned, Rusyn's call their language "Ruski Jazik", and the adjective they used to describe themselves is "Rus'kiye". They are kind of a fossilized proof that Ukrainians, Belarusians, and Russians all come from one people.

Don't you think it is strange that to the west of Ukraine there are a people called essentially "Russians", as well as to the East of them, while their own country is named "Borderland"? Neither does this make sense to Rusyns, and why they are reluctant to change their name to "Borderlanders".

The same term that Russians use for their language. Too many coincidental samenesses, sort of, :_):) that is why I said I don`t believe you. :):):)


Polish Rusyns aren`t called or don`t call themselves Russians. They are Lemko people. Stop this bs.

What are you talking about? Rusyns (in Polish "Rusini") aren't the same as RuSSians (in Polish "Rosjanie") and they're not called "RuSSians" either:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns


What?


Are you talking about Kresowiacy? o_O:

pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresowiacy

I didn't say that. However, even an idiot can see that "Rusyn" and "Russian" share the same root, and that is what I meant when I said there are essentially two "Russias" bordering Ukraine.

You are wrong to call all Polish Rusyns Lemkos. Only some part of them are Lemkos. Some still simply call themselves Rusyns, while others may call themselves Hutsuls or Boykos. It's just a subdivision of Rusyns. I suspect the majority of Rusyns in Poland simply call themselves Poles, since after they adopted Catholicism there really is not much difference between them.

When Rusyns from the Carpathian oblasts travel to Kiev, they tell their family, "I am going to Ukraine". Ukrainians don't understand their dialect - to the point that it is a recurring joke on evening television programs. The typical Rusyn response to who they are is:

"For Galicians (inhabitants of Lvovsk, Ternopol, and Ivano-Frankovsk Oblasts) - we are Hungarians. For Hungarians we are Russians. For Russians we are Banderites. We are, in fact, none of these."


Well it is true - you ape! Open Wikipedia and see for yourself.


Ukraina - means borderland. Look at the etymology in any dictionary.

Sorry, but what doesn't make sense to Rusyns exactly, according to you? That the country they're living in has a historical name? Rusyns live not only in Ukraine, but also in other countries and those countries have their names too lol They're an ethic minority in those countries. Whether they identify themselves as Rusyns/Lemkos/etc. or Ukrainians, Poles, etc. or both - that's up to every individual, I suppose.

Do you want to know why? I mean for real, not for games or some politicks?

@Ironside

Yes?


Why they should call themselves the stupid name of "Ukrainians", when they already have a perfectly good name.

It was Pawian who started this, by saying Poland must apologize to Ukrainians, for taking Ruthenian lands. I wanted to show that there is zero relation between "Ruthenia" and "Ukraine", no matter how much Kiev wishes it.

...somehow that PF apology-war made it into Twitter:)

"The lack of a Ukrainian apology remains one of the biggest obstacles to a Polish-Ukrainian alliance... But this is rather ironic, considering that Poland has a robust tradition of refusing to admit guilt for its own historical wrongs."

twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1683490166655131649

What a timing during a war!

I blame it on lazy journalists talking about apology. Nobody wants some apology except for our dumb politicians so they can pretend that everything is all right and they can keep selling out Poland interest to keep Ukrianie fighing. While those ukie a-holes keep sh't ing on us.

Thanks PiS - morons.

Oh wow, that's a big newspaper. The title of the article alone is quite juicy: Poland's destructive grievance politics

It turns out this article was written by a Pole. What is wrong with you people. Goddamn.

Is that one of your people? If not .....who is behind it? Germans and Biden trying to dump Ukraine and balme it on Poland?


It means nothing, who he is working for?

Ah, the short ban is over. How nice.


Check out the fragment of the article that starts with "As Polish sociologist Lech Nijakowski of Warsaw University explains" (...) and ends with "Spectacular torture, rape, and other atrocities have a rational purpose - they cause panic, which accelerates the exodus of the population."

Do you see now, Bobi, what we have to deal with in Poland? The guy rationalises the bestial murders and claims that they were merely ethnic cleansing, not genocide. If I recall correctly the same Mr Nijakowski wrote about Russian genocide in Bucha (73-178 victims acording to the UN, 458 according to the Ukrainian government). Can you believe it? In Bucha we had genocide, in Volhyn merely an ethnic cleansing (of course provoked by centuries of Polish oppression, so Poland should apologise first).

I have no words.

No, I'm afraid this curious fruit is one of yours.

Sławomir Sierakowski, founder of the Krytyka Polityczna movement, is a senior fellow at the German Council on Foreign Relations.

There's nothing "stupid" about this name.


Well, that's what they were called back then:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenia


Then there is zero relation between "Ruthenia" and "RuSSia" and "Belarus" too :)

And now on a serious note - the relation between Ruthenia and Ukraine isn't anyone's wishful thinking, but a historical fact. A quote from Wikipedia:

"Ruthenia is an exonym, originally used in Medieval Latin, as one of several terms for Kievan Rus. It is also used to refer to the East Slavic and Eastern Orthodox regions of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Kingdom of Poland, and later the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, corresponding to what is now Belarus and Ukraine. Historically, the term was used to refer to all the territories of the East Slavs, including Russia."

Rabid leftist. It's a pity he won't see my closed Slovak and Turkish threads - he would gladly apologise for every point I mentioned.

Ah, know him. He is sadly one of those ...red Army leftover. Hardly a Pole, he belongs in Russia. The only dffrence he was born and rised in Poland. His parents weren't punished for treason, so he is working in the same line of work, such people are in demand even in the EU.

Not really. I read the article, the guy is a complete cretin. The very opening sentences are idiotic:

July 11 marked the 80th anniversary of the Volhynia massacre, when Ukrainian nationalists fighting for their own state slaughtered nearly 100,000 Poles in a matter of days. People were killed with axes, their entrails and eyes gouged out. Children were thrown against walls, and pregnant women were pierced with bayonets.

"Ukrainian nationalists fighting for their own state" lol! Jesus Christ. Maybe nationalism really is a terrible ideology.

This was of course on another level, as you pointed out:

Nijakowski writes, "Spectacular torture, rape, and other atrocities have a rational purpose - they cause panic, which accelerates the exodus of the population."

This kind of acrobatics I don't think I've witnessed before. As Velund and I have been telling you since Feb. 24th last year - step aside and let us smash these b!tches.

That too. He is trying to make into politicks in Poland for over 20 years as a leftist which should be easy as pie in the EU, kissing out to Germans you are in, somehow he is dumb he can't make it. All he can do is writting some rubbish here and there.

I remember this guy, I've read an interview with him:

krytykapolityczna.pl/kraj/sierakowski-nie-jestesmy-lepsi-od-ukraincow/

I may not agree with everything he says, but I wouldn't call him a "cretin" though - he makes more sense in Polish, imho.


You've taken this out of context. He was explaining the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing:

linkedin.com/pulse/difference-between-genocide-ethnic-cleansing-kagusthan-ariaratnam

"In other words, ethnic cleansing chooses to terrify a particular ethnic group, forcing them to leave a particular area in order to create a more homogenous population"

While genocide focuses on complete or partial extermination of a group of people. That's why the Holocaust is considered to be a genocide, while what Serbs did in Yugoslavia, for example, is considered to be an ethnic cleansing, as far as I understand.


That's the first I hear of it. Where did you get that?

Strange, I don`t.

Do you agree, Paulina, that Bucha was a genocide but Volhyn merely an ethnic cleansing? An ethnic cleansing that was provoked by centuries of Polish oppression and that's why Poland should apologize to Ukrainians first?

No malice intended on my part, I'm just curious. It's a good moment for me to establish who I am dealing with on this board. With Pawian I already have a good idea; I like you (for some reason unknown to me), so I'm just curious about your opinion on this matter.

@pawian, well, I've read only that one interview with him - besides that I've never heard of him before, to be honest...


Why is it "strange"? :)

HEY!!!

Germans and apologies??? What do we know about it....

Yes, it was genocide provoked by Polish colonisation and polonisation especially in the interwar period when Poles sent punitive expeditions to Ukrainian villages and beat peasants there and burnt their houses and Orthodox churches. . Banderites came to the conclusion that the only way to deal with Poles was to remove them from the area. Thousands were murdered, other thousands were allowed to flee.

Your resistance to reason in this discussion suggests you know very little about Polish Ukrainian relations. Stay tuned and learn in this thread.


Yes, because Polish bishops gave an example of such apology once.


Strange coz I know everything about the Polish Ukrainian relations and everybody involved. . :):):)

As far as I understand the definitions it would depend on the intent of the perpetrators/decision makers. Volhynia massacres are a historical event already, so we have an idea what the intent was behind those massacres. In case of RuSSian soldiers/RuSSian government - we don't know what the intent was/is. In theory, judging by the genocidal remarks coming from guests/experts on RuSSian state TV and some others one could suspect that "coś jest na rzeczy". But that's not enough for me, of course. That's why in my opinion calling what happened in Bucha a "genocide" is premature. I'd say that calling it an "ethnic cleansing" would probably be premature too. For now, I think, all it can be called is "merely" a war crime and a crime against humanity.

Judging by the definitions I don't think the Katyń massacre can be considered a "genocide" either, btw. It's a war crime on a mass scale, but not a genocide.

On the other hand, I'm not an expert on this stuff or a historian and I realise that the lines between genocide and ethnic cleansing or war crimes can get blurred, so I can be wrong...