Poles should apologise to Ukrainians first

In 1960s, communist times, Polish bishops issued a declaration which initiated German Polish reconciliation - "we forgive and ask for forgiveness." Their initiative shocked most Poles, coz it was a short time after WW2 when Germans were still viewed as murderous beasts.

Today Poland needs a similar gesture concerning Ukraine.

Poles are demanding that Ukrainians should apologise for their genocidal crimes on the Polish nation during WW2. However, most Poles prefer to forget that it was Poland which attacked and oppressed western Ukraine, called Red Ruthenia or Red Rus, for centuries.

Poles should apologise first!! What for?

1/ for the colonisation of Rus territory, later called Western Ukraine.
2/ for the enslavement of Rus peoples.
3/ for suppressing Ukrainian attempts to create their own independent state
3/ for the brutal polonisation campaign directed against Ukrainian minority in the interwar period of 1920s - 30s.

@pawian

I am shocked, and at a loss for words...

Yes, but this is history which happened. When I develop point 3, namely the brutal polonisation of Ukrainian minority which took place in the 20th century, you will be even more shocked.

That is why many Ukrainians today, not even bandera supporters, are surprised to hear that Poles demand any apology from them coz they would prefer to see Poles apologise for centuries of oppression.

This will be interesting :)


Are you - by any chance - suggesting that banderist atrocities can be justified by "centuries of Polish oppression"?

Why don't apologise for your family being traitors?
Why don;t you stop talking about things you have no clue about? centuries of oppression is that Marx? :D
Why don't you stop try to tell people what to do? Freak~

Don't you know that nobody wants any apology from ukis they can shove it.
Is not Kabuki play, why there are commies that talk in the name of the Polish nation? Don't you dare apologise in the name of the nation. F - oFF~!

Banderist atrocities were a direct result of the Polish occupation of western Ukraine - the occupation which prevented the creation of an independent state which Ukrainians had desired for centuries.

No atrocities can be justified, neither Polish or Ukrainian. But when we look at the chronology of events and stick to it in the apologising process, Poles should take the first step.


I have different info about it. Are you still staying in Poland or moved back to North America??? :):):)

I propose to establish an Apology Ministry. Apart from the Ukrainians, there are still many who need to be apologized to, e.g. the Czechs for Zaolzie, the ruthenians for the seizure of the Kremlin, the Germans for this and that, the Jews for everything, etc.

I gladly will. Here you are:
Dear Ukrainians, I earnestly apologise to you for the Polish stubborn colonisation and polonisation of your lands and peoples living in Red Ruthenia later called Ukraine.

See, it is possible. When there is a will, there is always a way! Ha!


This has already been settled. :):)

I advise you to read on WW2 history and current events before you make statements like that. Some examples of contemporary Polish-Ukrainian relations:

1. Ukrainian anthem goes like that: "Brethren, stand together in a bloody fight, from the Sian to the Don". "Sien" or "San" is a tributary of Vistula, the longest river of Vistula. Can you name another nation that threatens a specific neighbor with violence in its national anthem?

2. Far right political movements in Ukraine like Right Sector openly make territorial demands toward Poland, more specifically the area of Przemysl in south eastern part of Poland

euromaidanpress.com/2018/02/22/poland-journalist-talks-nationalism-with-ukraine-right-sector-leader/
Right Sector might be a fringe movement right now, but radicals like that are likely to gain power in a ravaged post-war country. If Ukraine is forced to accept territorial concessions, Zelensky will likely be blamed for that and removed from power along with his lackeys.

3. Ukrainian immigrants are known for singing Czerwona Kalina (Red viburnum) in Polish cities (youtube.com/watch?v=im9EL4AuCzg), the unofficial anthem of fascist UPA organization responsible for genocide of Polish civilians in Volhynia. Before the war the Ukrainian nationalists marched through Przemysl each year, sometimes with UPA flags and in 2016 when approached by Polish counter-manifestation they mocked Polish anthem with words "Poland is not yet lost, but it shall" (youtube.com/watch?v=H2j31f06NEk).

If you are an US citizen can you imagine say, Mexican visitors, marching through a Texas city with nazi symbols and mocking the US national anthem?

4. No apologies or even acknowledgement of Volhynia massacre to this today. Instead former Ukrainian ambassador in Germany insulted us with claims that Poland is equally responsible for the events of Volhynia. Zelensky is a blatant liar who claimed that Ukraine "does not have any blood on its flag" (youtube.com/watch?v=Rn9PxESa2JE) even though Ukrainian fascists are responsible for extermination of Jews and Poles after German invasion of USSR. To this day there is no monument commemorating Polish victims. When the Polish president visited Ukraine he could only lay flowers in the middle of wheat field:

Something tells me that this suggestion, made repeatedly in the past by several members, shall not be followed. :)

Besides, let's remain calm - maybe Pawian just wants Poland to go the German way: let's apologise everyone for everything and then claim to be a moral superpower, lecturing everybody in Europe about decency, minority rights, democracy etc. Hmm... maybe he's onto something here. :)


Interesting. So would you say that when a group of people "desires something for centuries" and the elites of the country where they live, the ruling class, doesn't want to satisfy their desires, then when the aforementioned group of people commits bestial atrocities on civilians - mostly peasants, women, children and the elderly - this is merely a "direct result" of those frustrated desires? I'm just making sure if I understood you correctly.


Don't forget the Swedes, Alien. We should definitely apologise to them for brutally repelling their Potop and driving them back across the Baltic Sea. That was definitely uncalled for by Poland! We should have folded, so that today we would be a part of Sweden, "socially just" and with full tolerance of various minorities.

Yes, it is the Polish anthem in which we sing about retrieving with sabres what foreign powers stole from us during partitions.


While Polish nationalists still dream about Lviv and other. So what?


Was it created specifically by UPA or OUN as their anthem? No, they only adopted it. Should we condemn and erase every song which is adopted by evil people????

PS. can you make your posts a bit shorter???. There is a limit of three quotes per post and I have just reached it, having to skip commenting on our views in point 4

Why do you bring up Germany if that`s what Poles love doing - always playing victims hurt by their evil greedy neighbours. . But in case of Ukraine and Belarus it is a false game, I am afraid. How about looking the truth in the eye? In Ukraine Poles were oppressors and partitioners. Demanding an apology without even a slightest thought of apologising as first is pathetic.

Well, right now I am feeling fleeting urge to support Russia, to kill some Ukrainians. Was it the reason, you have posted this thread? Congratulations, you achieved something Novi, Bobo or gay Velund have never come close to.

It took me by surprise.
Apologies weren't even talked about, as we established they can shove it.
Then he pulls some utter tripe about centuries of oppression....like ukrainians date back to mid 19th century at most. Getting everything wrong, talking BS.

Going to ignore it. No need to give fuel to that freak, maybe he will f -off on his own.
One thing is certain he is not what he says he is.

How about answering my question from #10? :)


Another question, just to establish what you mean by that. Were the Poles bestially slaughtered by OUN-UPA, the children tortured and begging to be killed next to their mums (you should try and read Volhyn survivors memoirs every now and then) - were they "oppressors and partitioners" in Ukraine?


Indeed. A Putinist, hoping to turn Poles against Ukrainians, could do nothing better than propagate Pawian's thread to achieve his aim. Who knows - maybe he is a covert Putinist agent? Hmm... :):):)

That`s bad. :):) But it seems you have got lost a little. Why Ukrainians? They didn`t steal our lands during the partitions as the anthem suggests, it was Russians.


Yes, I am known for that. :):)


I already answered your question about atrocities in post No 6. Read in the middle of it.

No, you did not. You said in #6 that "no atrocities can be justified, neither Polish or Ukrainian". That's not what I asked in #10, so I will repeat my question...

Would you say that when a group of people "desires something for centuries" (as you said) and the elites of the country where they live, the ruling class, don't want to satisfy their desires, then when the aforementioned group of people commits bestial atrocities on civilians - mostly peasants, women, children and the elderly - this is merely a "direct result" (as you said) of those frustrated desires?

...and just in case you missed it, I will repeat the second (but definitely not the last :)) question:

Were the Poles bestially slaughtered by OUN-UPA, the children tortured and begging to be killed next to their mums (you should try and read Volhyn survivors memoirs every now and then) - were they "oppressors and partitioners" (as you said) in Ukraine?

Do you really think my views are so rare in Poland??? :):):)
So, apologies are needed but to each other, not only from Ukrainians.


Remember my multiple requests to you for explanation yesterday? Now it is my turn to play your own game. :):):) Ha! You shall taste your own dish.

I know exactly that there are people in Poland who formulate similar views - even in a more pronounced manner - and that's exactly why I'm asking the questions in this thread. :):):) So, would you be so kind and answer them?


Aaaah.... so now you see that it's not nice when you start a thread and somebody comes and start nitpicking in it? :):):) I just gave you a taste of your own medicine.

Let`s look closer at historical events.


It started in 11th century. Prince Chrobry, later the first king of Poland, attacked Red Ruthenia and captured Kiev in 1018. The famous act of striking his sword against the Golden Gate of Kyiv gave a rise to the legend of Szczerbiec, the Jagged Sword, the exhibit kept in the Wawel Castle Museum as one of the most precious artefacts in Poland.

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I have to admit, I feel fully inadequate now. There's no point for me to carry on.

Pawian has just admitted that Poland cruelly oppressed good Russian people, tried to Polonize them in the process - creating the ugly Ukrainian mutation, and did this not just over the centuries, but as recently as the 1920s. This is all I ever wanted to say on this forum. God bless you Pawian!

Too late. I was first with the taste of your own dish in post 18. Ha!

But apart from that the thread is not entirely pointless in its core. Mutual apologies, some time in the future, brotherly understanding, and - why not? - a bit of kumbaya singing would eventually be nice. :)

Pawian, pawian, pawian... you're not a bad guy at heart, I'll give you that.*


Should we apologise for that too? If we go back 1000 years the Europe will be stuck in apologies for another millenium - there will be no time for anything else. :D Oh, well... anyway, I'll leave this humorous thread in peace for the time being and will observe it with kindhearted interest. :)


Hey, what happened to "it was the Austro-Hungarians who created Ukrainian nationality against both Russians and Poles"? ;)

*But you can be an annoying c*nt sometimes nonetheless. Peace.

Nope. Russians take their origin from the Duchy of Moscow, while Poles colonised Ruthenians, today Ukrainians.


We should apologise for everything! It was Poles who started the expansion eastward against Ruthenians, not the other way round.

I excuse you for not being aware of this, but the modern peoples who call themselves Rusyns are largely pro-Russian, and anti-Ukrainian. Go figure. They also call their language "Ruski Jazik". Also, very strange.

You should get a tattoo on your face every time Ukr authorities name another street or they unveil another bust in Bandera's or in his butcher's honor. "So like Hitler.

Regrettabily Holocausted but fought against commies."

Maybe when looking in the mirror each morning, you will get the picture.

Some Poles celebrate their own murderers. And?


Being a decent person, I have no problem with it. Ha!


Yes, I am stoutly pro Ukrainian. Have always been, ask Iron. When Ukraine declared independence and Poland acknowledged it as first, I was the happiest person.

Mr Zelensky must be very forgetful of his country's history, or he must suppose that all others are ignorant or forgetful of it. But it is not my intention, at present, to reply to this extravagant pretension.

I shall, however, observe this thread with utmost interest. :)

At the beginning of the 11th century the Polish state got consolidated enough and its first king, Boleslaw the Bold, decided to make it even stronger through expansion. He tried to expand in various directions - west, south and east. But it turned out that Germans in the West were too powerful while Czechs too close to Germans. The eastern direction was a much better option - Chrobry attacked and annexed the so called Cherven Cities in western Ruthenia.

Poland in his times: pink colour is Polish state in 993 when Boleslaw started his rule. The red line shows the border in 1025 when he died. The yellow colour shows expansion - light yellow shows the territory he temporarily annexed but lost, dark yellow - annexed and kept. Cherven Cities in the east.

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I agree with the thesis of this thread, but for practical and national interest reasons.
Kania and Konfaside are reacting from a romantic, stubborn, polish nature, problem is Ukrainians are the same, so there will be deadlock until someone takes to first step to dance. The history that Pawian details happened first, so Poland should be the first to show regret/apologise. The Volyhn and other genocide was the most recent and the most atrocious, so Ukraine should be the last to apologise but their contrition should be expressed in the strongest possible terms.

In Zelensky polish speech commemorating our Independence Day, he called Poland our big sister, and that's what we are. A big sister apologises first, instead of bullying the smarkac brother to say sorry.

Poland is the stronger, therefore it is our duty and privilege to apologise first, that's all we have to do. They have to apologise, acknowledge the genocide, dig up mass graves with tens of thousands of dead, bury them, change their whole educational curriculum, destroy the reputation of the actual leaders that ordered the massacres. A very hard task, but helped by the fact that Poland holds the whip hand in accession to the EU. I don't care about Bandera, who was in prison at the time, they can keep him but the actual people who were involved need to be splattered with historical contempt.

Why is this more important than apology to turks/czechs etc?

Because Ukraine holds the key to the emergence of Poland as a major power in Europe, as germany was the patron state for Poland in the EU, and benefited greatly from it, so we too will be for Ukraine, but in a more brotherly, less condescending manner. The fact that there is a shared history of the Polish-Lithuanian-Ukraninian-Belarusian Commonwealth helps. At Davos last year the Ukrainians were claiming the constitution and multi-ethnic/cultural nature of the commonwealth as for themselves as well, that's a great sign of accepting the positive aspects of our shared glorious history.

The reconciliation process should be driven forward by the religious class and then handed over to the political class.