@delphiandomine He is interested in Poland to some extent, but he still knows very little about the country or its people (although he claims otherwise).
He doesn't hate Poles....Lzyko has by far the greatest knowledge of this country.
Oh please. Lyzko and his backpacker phrasebook knowledge of Polish admits to spending only a few days in the last century as a tourist in Gdansk (which by the way he deliberately refers to as Danzig in other posts). Granted, it could be worse and he could be like you relying on Google maps to see what most of Poland looks like beyond your bedsit.
He also admits elsewhere to never setting foot in any of the Nazi concentration camps anywhere. And yet day after day, post after post, all we get is his relentless, false and defamatory demonization of Poles side by side with his cultish veneration of the Jews.
Go read the title of this thread. Lyzko is completely unqualified to comment about "Auschwitz and The Ghetto".
And how shameful that he uses industrial scale atrocities committed by the Nazis in order to denigrate and bash Poles while pedestalizing Jews.
Now that's hate!
In fact, there is a word for it: P O L O N O P H O B I A.
@Bieganski Wasn't it just half a day in Szczecin? I have also noticed he calls Gdańsk Danzig - but again he likes Germans and probably doesn't know or 'remember' that Gdańsk was Polish.
Probably and that's giving him the benefit of the doubt that he has ever even been outside of America at all. He lies so much about Poland and Poles that I wouldn't be surprised if his stories about being in Poland is just another fabrication of his and based on coffee table picture books found in used bookstores and post cards he saw in bric-a-brac shops in his native New Jersey.
but again he likes Germans
He most certainly does. Very likely that his parents or grandparents are German Jews who left Germany before the outbreak of WWII. So they would have been completely brainwashed by all the anti-Polish sentiment spewed by the Nazis at the time as a pretext to invade Poland.
As Lyzko's one former president recently said, hate is learned. So he obviously was raised in a household which has a long history of hatred towards Poles.
Lyzko doesn't hate poles though but his comments that Nazis could have only built up Auschwitz and other camps with the help of poles are down right incorrect and many poles would find them offensive.
Remember the gaffe when Obama referred to such camps as 'polish death camps?'
Like i said before, roughly as many ethnic poles as polish Jews died at Nazi hands within polish territory if not slightly more. Why would poles willingly build a camp where as many if not more of their fellow poles would perish alongside polish Jew? Doesn't make sense. That's like literally digging your own grave which people don't do unless they have a pistol to the back of their head.
Unlike the Ukrainians Croats etc Poland didn't have any organized groups allied with the Nazis. Maybe a few opportunistic poles but no organized group actively allied with and supporting the nazis.
Lyzko may not be overt about his hatred towards Poles. He may not use obvious insults such as using terms like "dumb polak." He may never even have called for tens of thousands of Poles to be systematically hanged like another notorious troll on here has done in the past.
But Lyzko's daily (and discredited) disinformation campaign centered around falsely equating Poles to Nazis and Nazi collaborators is there for all to see.
Hatred displays itself in many forms and is as efficient and effective a motivator as money. Lyzko is very motivated in his bigotry against Poles.
Oh sure, he tried to deflect anyone pointing this out in the past by saying he saw himself as just some harmless Groucho Marx character. Don't believe him. Seemingly harmless humor told behind a self-deprecating facade are tactics often used in propaganda to sell lies.
Never once did I state on this, or for that matter, on any forum, that "the Poles built the camps", point blank!! This alone would be an out-and-out lie, worthy even of a libel suit. No argument there, not now, not ever. Merely wish to set the record straight:-)
However, as the old saying goes, "It takes two to tango." The measures imposed on the Danes by Plenipotentiary Werner Best for aiding Jews, giving succor to resistance fighters and the like, were as harsh as any imposed on the Poles.
The difference is merely that, Poland's huge resistance movement aside for a minute, the invading Nazis once again were banking on the local cooperation of the peasants, farmers and small-townsfolk throughout the countryside, not only of Poland, more so even, of Latvia and Lithuania (traditionally also seats of Jewish learning for centuries), for help in ridding Europe of her Jews.
These are facts. If you don't believe me, read Lucy Davidowicz, Raul Hilberg, and scholars far more learned than any of us here.
@Bieganski,
Your English could also be called "Googlish", but never once did I have to consult a phrasebook trapsing around Sczcecin! I waited till I returned to the hotel:-)
@kaprys,
I make no bones about the fact that Jews in Communist Europe numbered among the worst. With the blatant exception of course of Ceauscescu, Hungary's Rakosi Matyas was a vicious, unrepenetant swine who all but turned his back on his own people, changed his name, and adopted the ideology which would help him feather his nest. Not a Jew I'd be proud of!!
How is it then, that the Nazis tried to erect similar such sites in, among other places, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Scandinavia and France
Where is your source to support hat claim. Where is a data that shows without a doubt that Germans 'tried to erect similar such sites' anywhere bide places they have had them erected. Do you think they started their work with a poll amongst the local population? Can you be more out of touch and ridiculous?
Forgive me but even for the American standards your historical 'acumen' is so beyond the pale that I'm forgiven in my believe you're trolling.
It's very interesting that only a few years ago your dance partner Harry's daily rants were all about falsely blaming Poles for pogroms, Nazi death camps, and any other tale of woe to be told by a Jew.
Now this is your routine while his moves have changed to stomping on Poles who express themselves at the ballot box as well as quickly passing a guilty verdict as soon as any allegation of a crime is made against a Pole.
@Lyzko Can you give us any examples of how Danes were punished for helping Jews? Can you give us any examples of Danish people who were murdered (like the Ulma family) or tortured (like Sendler) for helping Jews? Why are there so few Danish Righteous? You keep talking about Poles from small towns and villages who helped Nazis. What about those who hid Jews? Or those who lost their lives for helping Jews in public executions? Also from small towns and villages.
As for my post about Jews involved in Stalinist atrocities, keep in mind it was about not making harmful generalisations. Also, some of your posts have proved you know very little about Poland during WW2.
However, as the old saying goes, "It takes two to tango."
The Polish involvement in the camps was a significant part of their... content. You, nasty xenophobe, are spitting in the faces of these people.
the invading Nazis once again were banking on the local cooperation of the peasants, farmers and small-townsfolk throughout the countryside
Even for so called "Nazis", Jews were the 2nd rate issue. During WW2 half of the world was fighting, tens of millions died. Your approach... that it's all about Jews, shows you are an egocentric xenophobe. I wouldn't be surprised If you praised some "Nazi", who killed hundreds of Goys just because he spared a couple of Jews.
By the way, "Nazis" didn't need any "local cooperation", in most cases when they ordered Jews from place x to be send to the ghetto in town y, Jews where showing up where they were told, often carefully counted by their local leaders, same story in the ghettos, usually till the final walk to "take the shower". The whole concept of millions of Jews running for their lives, just the nasty locals didn't want to help them, is totally incorrect. If somebody got down there to your level, one could say that Holocaust was a German-Jewish cooperation. And now some US based *****, think they are entitled to be some sort of judges of the humanity.
Sorry but that wouldn't fit the legal definition of libel. For one no one attached your legal name or a business you run to it. Also you'd be unable to prove it would damage your reputation in real life.
Anyway, facts are facts. More poles died than Jews on pl territory and if the Danes brits Hungarians whatever were so great to the Jews then why is it that poles have the most 'righteous among the nation' awards issued by yad vashem?
Takes two to tango? That's like saying the Ukrainians are half responsible for Stalin's holodomor because it occurred in Ukrainian territory or that the siberians were half responsible for building the gulags to which millions of Soviets were sent to.
That's like saying the Ukrainians are half responsible for Stalin's holodomor
well..not the best example. guy responsible for this atrocity was ukrainian jew.kaganovitz
r because it occurred in Ukrainian territory
area affected was todays east ukraine,and russian kuban region,both inhabited by russians mostly.west ukraine was within polish border,so they didnt suffer.
one could almost say that during holodomor,ukrainians starved russians.
Actually when ships carrying Jewish refugees arrived in various ports such as united states Canada cuba etc they were consistently denied entry. Unlike those countries Poland was bombed to oblivion yet we still helped jews more than anyone else and our yad vashem awards prove it. Its easy to say they should have done this or that but this all occurred during ww2 - the most deadly war in human history. Some people actively helped jews helping them hide in sewers cellars barns etc at risk to their own lived, some turned in Jews for money, some just didn't want to get involved and wanted themselves and their families to survive the war.
The unfortunate thing is even after poland was devastated by the nazis, the Soviets and polish Jews (who made up over half of Poland's security service after the war) took their rage out on poles especially an members and those loyal to the government in exile. All that after we had a 60 some day uprising in Warsaw to attempt to kick the Nazis out and regain control of the city which at the time had the largest Jewish ghetto. Poles waged a guerilla war against the Nazis in Warsaw for longer than the entire French nation waged war against the Nazis despite their far superior numbers and technology compared to the poles. People like Stefan michnik sent patriotic ak members who fought against the Nazis to their deaths. They were more than happy to act on some sort of perceived revenge against the poles although they were silly enough to think the Soviets had their back. Soon after the Soviets ended up massacring these same Jews or sending them to the gulags of they felt they weren't falling in line with the commie ideology.
Folks, culpability in time bears the fullness of responsibility, if not directly, then indirectly. Sources for my posts? Lack of knowledge about WWII? I ask the naysayers among us to read the history for themselves. Anybody can label someone a "counter revisionist" for attacking revisionist claims, such as those of Messrs. Irving, Nolte or Hillgruber, among others.
Ever read Goldhagen's controversial best seller "Hitler's Willing Executioners", or perhaps even more trenchant because written by a non-Jewish historian, "Ordinary Men" by Christopher Browning?? The contents may surprise most of you, shock some of you, and I hope, enlighten the rest of you:-)
I expect to receive the usual denial of the truth. Indeed, the truth can on occasion taste like a mouthful of worms, and yet, in this era of "fake news", it's salubrious for sure to bask in the healing waters of veracity:-)
A long post about nothing. No real arguments. No answers to the questions. Talking about the truth ... have I just read in another thread that you 'no longer live in Poland'? Have you ever lived in Poland? Or you have just visited Poland once. What is the truth? Less and less credible with every post ...
Lyzko at his 'best': Poles are responsible for the Holocaust, whoever questions his posts doesn't understand English and that horrible Polish accent. Lol. You forgot to mention it today. Hahaha.
So any examples of Danish citizens murdered for helping Jews? Did you just lie about living in Poland?
Two serious questions to you.
I'm not sure you understand them as I typed it in a very strong Polish accent but you are such a darling that you speak Polish to Poles because their English sux so: Jakieś przykłady Duńczyków zamordowanych za pomoc Żydom? Czy właśnie sklamales o mieszkaniu w Polsce?
This book is about German collusion, specifically Police Reserve Unit 101, not Polish collusion. I read it a few years ago now.
the invading Nazis once again were banking on the local cooperation of the peasants, farmers and small-townsfolk throughout the countryside,
What evidence do you have to support this? I am sure that Poles in a life or death situation may have had very little choice but to cooperate, as probably you would with a gun to your head, but I've never heard of Poles willingly cooperating with Nazis. There were collaborators, mainly from Eastern Europe, namely Trawniki men, but these men were recruited from POW camps set up by the Nazis for Soviet soldiers captured during Operation Barbarossa.
The fact is that the holocaust is dying as a thing that people get worked up about. Why should people born 50 years (2 generations) after the end still be concerned? It had a good run, but it's over.
No tragedy concerns people forever. Remember Kampuchea and the Khmer Rouge? Rwanda? That was just over 20 years ago and the world has forgotten.
Exactly. There were no such organized pro Nazi groups in poland. Maybe a tiny group of guys who took advantage of the situation and linked up got her to find Jews in return for reichmarks. But nothing like the ustace which attacked villages and murdered Serbs or the banderists with some upa/oum elements attacking and killing poles. However to say that poles in general helped out or gave the Nazis the thumbs up to build Auschwitz simply isn't true. We were under occupation.
The fact is the only poles who could have in any way helped the Nazis were primarily hose who were forced to do so i.e. sonderkommando, were in Nazi pow camp prisoners, and those captured in lapanki. (Stalin did something similar but with criminal inmates however they were thrown back in prison anyway after the war ended. Such began the b!tch wars because the name of these veterans was suki. Any collaboration w the government in the old soviet prison system was the worst thing a vor could do).
Exponentially more poles opposed the nazi than helped them and that's a historical fact. Yes some poles esp rural areas used the turbulent times to enrich themselves. They'd rat out Jews to the Nazis for money, would steal everything from a Jews house who was sent away or even move in and claim the house as his or her own, and some simply didn't want to get involved. They neither helped nor hurt Jews bc they didn't want themselves or their family to get shot.
@mafketis Its because of something called the holocaust industry which a Jewish processor Norman finkelstein wrote a book on literally titled the holocaust industry. A small amount of Jews have been unscrupulously using the holocaust to make millions off their dead descendants by making tons of movies books etc about the holocaust as well as political concessions that Jewish hawks particularly love like 'never again.' that I think is fair bc they do deserve their own country but giving billions to Israel is not worth it. At first perhaps but now it's a very rich country and yet it receives more aid from the us than every African country combined which is in far worse poverty than any poorer neighborhoods of Israel. Furthermore there's a system of apartheid there against Palestine and the government constantly violates un resolutions. Some Jews have even made up their stories about Auschwitz or sorely exaggerated the truth. You don't see the Japanese crying non-stop about Nagasaki and hiroshima and making tons of books films etc on the subject nor are families suing the us to get money. The Jews have extracted a significant amount of money from Swiss banks and are still asking for more. Money was doled out without a whole lot of deep investigation into ones claim. Same thing with all the other mass killing, ethnic (or political) cleansing, genocides etc - rwanda, Congo, burma, soviet union, serbia, bosnia, etc.
Some early extreme Zionists promoted the holocaust and they didn't care what happened to their fellow jew as Israel would be created, funded and allied with America and the west. Israel was suppose to come into existence when the brits signed the balfour declaration. They also promised the land to the Saudis to help defeat the ottoman empire but that's a diff story. Anyway the plans were to be put into motion asap but ww2 delayed it. Hence many extreme Zionists actually were kind of happy the holocaust occurred because it would give them so much political economic and military security once it was all done and over with. A question is often asked to Jews and Zionists Jews which is really tough to answer imo and idk how I would of I were Jewish - Was it worth it for millions of Jews dead with millions move losing everything just for Jews to have their own country at the end or not?
You are correct regarding the Browning book, Maf! I read it after the Goldhagen, and while my analogy might have been misleading, my point was that collusion was rampant throughout the War, not only on the Polish side:-)
Furthermore, it is known by any number of Polish Jews in my circle of acquaintances, from Holocaust Survivor groups, for instance, that in Poland, anti-Semitism has of course long since been officially "de-fanged", and yet, it lurks beneath the surface.
A pianist colleague of mine from Warsaw, changed his name from "Markowicz" to "Marekowski" in order to sound more "Polish". He also told me that many Jews, openly Jewish, living in Warsaw, and NOT small villages, typically had their car tires slashed for no apparent reason.
Isolated as these incidents may be, as with domestic violence until recently, a large number more are, I'm sure, not reported for fear of reprisals!
As a nation, Poland has certainly done her share to make amends for the past, nearly as much as Germany, much more than Switzerland or Austria. However, ironically, national surveys done continue to reveal an underlying hostility towards the presence of Jews in their country.
A surname ending with -wicz doesn't sound Jewish at all. As far as I know Adam Mickiewicz or Henryk Sienkiewicz weren't Jewish. The ending is typical for Eastern territories.
Also it is just a myth that a typically Polish name ends with -ski.
As one also familiar with Polish, it is well known that a large number (though perhaps not the majority) of Polish surnames DO end in "ski", "owski" as well as "icz":-)
There are, however, certain family names which I for instance would not associate with a "Jewish-sounding" one, e.g. "Duda", "Lula", "Pajdo", "Blaszczuk", "Dolnik" etc...
Your point is fair enough, but in fact, Jews with easily identifiable last names such as "Horowitz", "Goldberg", "Cohen" and so forth will obviously stand out in Poland. Physical appearance though, I freely admit, is dangerous to generalize, therefore less clear to identify in a crowd (except when clothed in certain garb such as a kipa, shreimel or long black frock coat during the summer months, for instance).
Many Polish Jews are often so intermarried, and have been for centuries, I even remember seeing a few who had what I might dub typically "Polish" features such as lighish eyes, squarish jaw, sharp features and a tendency toward tallness.
I'm sorry but the examples you give just don't sound credible. Markiewicz doesn't sound Jewish. Why would he have changed the name?
Could a Jewish person face antisemitism in Poland? Sure. The same applies to other countries. Even your country! You say someone Jewish had their tyres slashed in Poland. Google 'antisemitism USA slashed tyres' as I did and there are several quite recent articles about that - one incident happened in New York - close to where you are, I believe.
What about Charlottesville? What about the KKK? Lynching and segregation well into the 1960s?
Ethnic Poles and Polish Jews have intermarried. The president's wife is partly Jewish, so is the former first lady. That is not a recent thing. Such marriages happened before WW2, too. Kiepura's mother was Jewish. Mila Kunis and Natalie Portman look like thousands Polish women you meet in the street. They may have Slavic ancestors.
All over the world, there are people who hate others for their race, religion, sex etc. And those who don't care. There are good and bad people.
Poland or the USA are no exceptions. So please, stop blaming Poles for all antisemitism in the world.
Home / History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto?
