While I do agree that the final solution was uniquely against the jews, Hitler did tell the Nazis and wermacht to annihilate poland, destroy the culture and mercilessly wipe out the nation and people. Ill have to find his exact quote.
Either Hitler said these things to rally the troops or because he really meant it. In any case yes the jews were the ones chosen to be totally annihilated.
DIrkdiggler, documentary evidence has already confirmed this assertion to be both factual as well as truthful:
The key difference though here is that Poles per se found or arrested outside the dragnet of Hitler's Reich could easily be spared, should they agree to cooperate with the Nazis, e.g. turn in Jewish neighbors, colleagues etc.., thus currying favor with the "Generalgouvernment".
Any Jew however enountered by the Gestapo's net ANYWHERE within Occupied Europe was to be returned to Germany, thrown into a camp, and exterminated along with the rest of his ill-fated lot.
Again, for those whom Goering determined to be "Jews" vs. "Mischlinge", there could be no 'negotiation'; their fate was final, hence, "Final Solution to the JEWISH Problem" as outlined in the minutes of the Wannsee Conference, presided over by Heydrich and his adjutant Lieutenant Adolf Eichmann.
Moreover, the designation of "bacillus" and "parasites" etc.. was reserved solely for the Jews. Any doubts lingering can easily quelled by watching the painfully horrid "The Eternal Jew" (1939??) by Fritz Hippler. Poles, Russians, SIntis were murdered in droves, yet none of same ever openly equated with vermin or rodents or other "Schaedlinge" (pests)!!
No matter how you look at it in poland roughly the same amount of jews died as ethnic poles. 2.77 to 3 mil according to the institute of national remembrance. Death is death .... Doesn't matter really how someone goes about it. Whether its a bombing gassing shot to the head the result is all the same - death.
Read the bottom on himmlers statement on how he says to totally annhilaye the polish people
He says 85% of poles are to be killed 15% used as slave labor and later ALL poles will disappear from this world. He specifically writes the German nation considers the elimination of all polish people its chief task.
Our suffering was just as bad. We lost the same amount of ethnic poles as jews in poland. Yet hardly anyone knows this many poles died under Nazi hands and then later the Soviets. I'm just saying that no Jews and their holocaust wasn't the only mass genocide and attempted total ethnic cleansing. Both poles and Jews to be wiped out completely according to the Nazis.
Also you're incorrect about most Jews immediately going right away into gas chambers. If a person was too frail, disformed, could barely walk etc then they were killed right away. However everyone who was even somewhat able bodied despite being already crammed in a cattle car w little to no food or water, were forced to work in the camps. Once they were overworked they were killed whether by gassing blunt force trauma etc.
However I do remember one story of jews being lead down a maze with like a ticket booth to give up valuables and receive a ticket for it. However they would then enter a large building that looked like a Jewish temple and had a star of David on it. Once the people were in they were gassed. So yes the jews did suffer in different manners like that one which ethnic poles didn't endure as much. Nonetheless again death is death - we too were gassed, maybe not in such a deceptive way like the one I just explained but we, both poles and jews, were worked to desth, starved, shot, besten, experimented on, forced to clean up and cremate the dead, and all the other stuff that jews went through also.
There really isn't much difference between the way jews poles etc were treated at camps. We were all to be used till we died. I know the holocaust is a tragedy. Ill repeat again, I wish more people knew that it wasn't just the jews who perished but also tons of gays commies Russians poles etc. However those facts are put aside and it seems like only rhebsuffering is the jews is really what's remember when all these people deserve equal pittance and perhaps reparations which the jews already received as well.
here really isn't much difference between the way jews poles etc were treated at camps.
yep, tho jew got worse treatment outside -in Warsaw ghettos for example, were much harsher condition than outside of ghetto but the worst treatment in Death camps by far ,had Russian war prisoners. i read few books describing this , and those guys were exterminated almost as they arrived.
Yes I mean of course there's differences depending on the course of the way, where you lived, how you suffered, etc. Even the camp you arrived in could be more like a jail with not enough food for everyone like a pow camp or Nazi camps where slavs and Jews alike were killed alike.
Still tho. I think anyone would prefer being put in a ghetto (full of poverty typhus etc and not knowing when you'll be dragged off to a comp ) over being shot in the head. So perhaps yeah maybe poles lived a bit better in a home in the village or whatever but nonetheless we shared the often shared the exact sme fate as the jews
Not matter how you look at it on polish soil the same amount of jews died and poles died. They shared camps together. It wasn't as if poles too didn't have their stuff confiscated families torn apart and being forced to do slave labor till you collapse out of exhaustion and are then sent to be killed. With the exception of a few details like where say jews lived vs Catholics or that jews were made to wear a star is degregation and all. However poles too were degraded humiliated our best books burned and poles were beat up arrested and shot - just like many jews. With the exception of a few details, our suffering was similar and it ended in death for both 3 mil pl jews and 3 mil ethnic poles
Nonetheless the same amount of both groups died and death is the ultimate abuse, the worst form of punishment for a perceived enemy, maltreatment etc.
I just want people to recognize this that there's more to the Nazi conquest of Europe and killing jews because the truth is far more slavs died in the war than jews and the amount of ethnic poles that perished in poland are nearly the same 2.7 to 3 mil number. (Institute of national remembrance)
Only Poles for example, in and of themselves, were never per se exclusively targets of mass methodical, assembly-line extermination:-) Many peoples throughout history, right up through Idi Amin and Pol Pot practiced death by attrition and mass starvation. Prior to Hitler, the Jews themselves had undergone similar, if not identical, treatment at the hands of many nations, including during the Holy Roman Empire.
The Holocaust however put a different slant on the killing of Jews, biological, no longer merely ideological.
Ernst Zuendel just passed yesterday!!! One of the last of the "great" Holocaust deniers will have to meet his maker. That leaves only David Irving, a fella in France and another in Sweden to carry on the dirty job:-))
Part of what Netanyahu says about hitler is correct - Hitler didn't want to kill all the jews at first. He wanted to deport them to Madagascar but it proved too expensive and the allies blockades much of the seas. Don't forget hardly anyone wanted to take in Jewish refugees during ww2 - ships carrying jews were rejected from us Canada Cuba etc in the late 30s and very early 40s.
David irving stated there were gas chambers stayed holocaust did occur so he's not totally a holocaust denier. What he did wrong was downplay Hitler's knowledge and the scope of nazi atrocities. He painted Hitler as a unified of Europeans which he certainly was not - at least not for German blooded European. Its not just those guys though that get put into a holocaust denier or at least anti Semite category there's surprisingly quite a bit and famous people too like bobby Fischer Marlon brando pat buchanan etc.
The problem is due to the disproportionate amount of jews, most of whom are zionist, in position of high finance, media, politics etc many people from common workers to even educated types use them as a scapegoat esp in sociopolitical context. Sometimes its not too far fetched for example if I were to say 'the jews pushed 3rd world immigration on the us' it certainly exaggerates the roles Jewish politicians played but nonetheless the 1965 open immigration act was created and pushed by Jacob javitz and his buddies. Its been that way for centuries because well quite frankly jews value education, learning, and moving onto better and bigger things throughout their own lives and future generations. So yes many jews do end up in positions of high authority but that doesn't mean that there's no other types of people I.e. wasps Hispanics slavs blacks other Europeans in those positions. Also there are far more jews that are plain old everyday middle and upper middle class types than jews who are in the .0001%. The truth is the Jewish mechanic down the street or antique dealer in the downtown area of my suburb gets just as screwed as any goy by some of the policies made up top.
A lot of ppl have beef with Hollywood and political jews more so over their insensitivies to the masses and some people like Marlon brando will go publicly go voice it. Or those who support bds. However I still think the majority of those people would agree the holocaust did occur though.
The one thing that bugs me is unlike any other mass murder genocide extermination etc througout history its almost as if examination and research which challenges existing nuances, even if new facts can be totally proven scientifically such research is generally discouraged with the holocaust. You can even be put in jail in certain countries for not agreeing with some parts based on your own research or whatever unlike say katyn srebnica great purge etc. Fortunately some Jews like yehuda bauer did want to ultimately come up with a death toll at least at Auschwitz in his case. Actually the court decided in 2000 during the irving v lipstadt trial that 'hundreds of thousands of jews' died in Auschwitz so far lower than the original pre 1989 number and closer to the 1 mil estimate of yehuda bauer who imo is most accurate, till more research is allowed to be done anyway.
He did however have a pretty thorough go at it in the end.
disproportionate
There are no quotas or rules about who can or can't do what, and no reason to have that. Are there a 'disproportionate amount' of Chinese people in manufacturing?
Poles were most certainly targets of assembly line mass extermination by both Nazis and Soviets. How could you say such a thing? Hitler stated on August 22 1939 "kill without reprieve all men, women and children of the polish race." The Nazis would march through villages shooting at any civilians as they pleased. Entire towns got massacres and still Nazis reinhard heydrich complained too few poles were being killed.
Stalin was even worse because most ethnic poles were loyal to the ak and government in exile and he exacerbated tensions between jews and poles to repress ethnic poles. The vast majority of the security services were jews and Russians with power to do whatever they wanted to poles. Only problem was non communist jews who originally thought they'd be safe since their bretheren were in ub ended up getting jailed or killed esp if they were thought to be anti commie.
There were plenty of massacres of ethnic poles by both Nazis and Soviets and their puppets katyn volhynia czestochowa bydgoszcz there were tons. All of Warsaw was decimated after we fought on behalf of all those who lived in poland jew and pole alike in the Warsaw uprising only to have the entire city bombed after some 60 days of fighting - we fought longer in just 1 uprising than all of France did when they got invaded. Attention only shifted to exterminating jews after Hitler realized his plans to deport the jews to Madagascar wasn't feasible.
No matter how you look at it as many ethnic poles died at Nazi hands as jews did. If you include all slavs its several times more than the total amount of jews. Death is death
Yeah he def did especially after 1941 and as things got more desperate for him. And no there aren't any rules quotas (unless you count affirmative action but that's a different topic). I'm merely saying that its Jewish tradition to be educated esp for males hence why many jews become successful as education and success in a career are highly correlated. But to answer your question yes there are a disproportionate amount of chines e in manufacturing because that's what they chose to specialize in. China is known as the factory of the world. It is what it is... Not good nor bad. Doesn't mean that others can't be also manufacturers its merely stating that as a nation and as a percentage of the worldwide population and economy, China and the chinese are the dominant ones in manufacturing.
Im merely stating fact that there is a disproportionate amount of jews in high finance media politics etc. Its a well known fact. It doesn't bother me personally but it can bother some people who use it as a scapegoat. Personally I don't care.
@Dirkdiggler, while partly correct, the fact is, the Poles (even though Slavs and not Germans) were still Christians, even though Christianity in itself was rejected by Hitler as showing too much of a "Jewish conscience"! If Poles somehow escaped the Nazi network throughout the occupied continent and made it safely to non-Nazi-held territory, they wouldn't necessarily be deported back to an extermination camp. They'd be starved or worked to death.
Neither option is preferable however, this is certainly true.
That makes a difference how exactly? "Oh m'lud, I upped my murder rate as things got more desperate for me"...
I'm merely saying that its Jewish tradition to be educated esp for males hence why many jews become successful as education and success in a career are highly correlated.
Very good. You may think that non-Jewish Poles and Germans don't have that same tradition of study and education and instead have other traditions, however there's nothing to stop them ditching their traditions and adopting better ones. Learning from a group is far better than persecuting it.
As The Internationale says in its glorious lyrics: "We'll end to day the old tradition, we'll spurn the dust to win the prize".
Exactly it doesn't make a different. Death is death and the same perhaps roughly more poles died than jews.
And no throughout history the average poles Germans British focused more on physical type work I.e. agriculture industry etc. Most people weren't even literate in Europe till the past 200 100 years or so. However the difference is with Jew for example just about everyone was literate even if only to read hebrew scripture
And no lyzko not falling for any stereotypes. Besides all stereotypes have a certain degree of truth to them otherwise they wouldn't exist.
That's the problem with communism as the internationals lyrics proves it. Not everyone wants to abandon their traditions. Some people are happy as they are and don't want to give up their ancient traditions. Such is their right. Not everyone wants multiculturalism feminism or a communal society especially poland as we've had a rather bad experience with commies
As The Internationale says in its glorious lyrics: "We'll end to day the old tradition, we'll spurn the dust to win the prize".
I would actually like to see some old traditions die before agreeing to this. At present it seems that those who hold on most firmly to their old traditions (no matter how dysfunctional from a western civil society viepoint) are doing better than those spurning the dust.
The men, anyway. The literacy and adaptability thing shows that people sometimes try and thrive in adversity and that complacency and clinging to small things is generally bad.
The two British spinster sisters, very ordinary and not rich, who rescued 29 families from the Holocaust said that the people they were able to help were the ones who could drop everything and change their life completely; those who hung on to belongings, family photos, status - they couldn't help them.
Yeah that's how my gfs familt survived. Although they were French jews and they had it way different than pl jews. There was no Paris ghetto or Auschwitz in france. It was rather easy for them to get into Canada then us as a just in case move. They traded most of their possessions for diamonds, smuggled them and went abroad.
And yes traditionally the men studied went to yeshiva and all that, the women were encouraged to stay at home and pop out babies. In the more religious communities people are married as teens often through arrangements between the parents.
It also depends on the environment. Sometimes family, photos, memories is all one has and would prefer death over losing that. If I were to lose my entire family id rather join them in death than live in misery. Just depends on personal preference.
France though was scarcely a picknick either, Dirk! Don't forget that while admittedly there was no exact equivalent of Auschwitz or the German Gestapo to speak of, and the majority of French were dyed-in-the-wool anti-Nazi, she did nonetheless have Drancy, an internement camp to the South of France, the Vichy regime played on the centuries-old anti-Semitism of the peasant classes, and the local police often turned in Jews to the Germans.
If you recall a most poignant film, made around 1980 or so by Louis Malle, "Au Revoir Les Enfants", the two Jewish boys were turned in to the Gestapo by traitors, eager to score browny points with the police.
On the other hand, as noted before, France had perhaps the most visible resistance movement in Europe (don't let's not forget Jean Moulin), second only to Denmark and possibly Norway ("The Heroes of Telemark"):-)
France also has had a tradition of anti-Jewish hostility, from the snide writings of Voltaire (oddly enough, an otherwise most enlightened man) up through Edouard Drumont just prior to the Dreyfus Affair, followed by faschist types such as Pierre Laval and others.
No, France, like Sweden and a few others, was NO haven per se during WWII. Merely, their PR was ten-times or so more successful than that of Germany, Poland, even Austria and Switzerland.
she did nonetheless have Drancy, an internement camp to the South of France,
it was a bit more than an internment camp though wasnt it? From there people were taken straight to Auschwitz. Foreign Jews first, (the ones that had sought refuge in France from Russian pogroms) and then, later, French Jews.
In fact the French police were complicit in rounding them up . More than one trainload of unaccompanied children left France for Auschwitz.
Not that the channel islands (British) were much better, just much much lower numbers.
I should have written "way station", not really an internment camp, you're absolutely right:-) Even today, many French (Marine Le Pen, for one) refuse to admit France's clear complicity during the War.
yes I was reading about Irene Nemirovsky recently - her 'imagined memoir' written by one of the children that she had to leave behind when she was deported.
Missed a thread recently apropos, by indeed a true hero of the entire Shoah in Poland at any rate, was Janusz Korczak! Giving up one's own life in order that children not even related to him, but in his care, should not feel alone in their hour of direst need, is perhaps the highest level of humanity we know.
I should have written "way station", not really an internment camp
It was both a transit camp and an internment camp. Some of the Jews were incarcerated there for months; the fascists couldn't get them to the Death Camps in the east quickly enough, since they were murdering so many Jews from all over Europe in them.
