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Saint Virgin Mary Queen of Poland crushes the Red Army


jon357 67 | 16,836
20 Feb 2020 #31
Stanisław Krajski

That guy is an utter crank. Some of his writings are absolutely off the wall.

struggles

As times of struggle fade to times of peace, the values born out of those struggles evolve.
OP Torq
20 Feb 2020 #32
That guy is an utter crank. Some of his writings are absolutely off the wall.

That's a bit harsh, I think. Can you give me any examples of what exactly you have in mind?

As times of struggle fade to times of peace, the values born out of those struggles evolve.

That's true. The attitudes evolve, and it's visible especially in the younger generation.
jon357 67 | 16,836
20 Feb 2020 #33
The attitudes evolve, and it's visible especially in the younger generat

Very much so; and the process continues as the world, the environment and people's priorities change. Right now, there are a lot of under 30s here who've had a life so safe and stable that their forebears could barely dare to dream of it. Some of the values you mention earlier would have been unrecognisable to people 200 years ago and unbelievable a few generations before that.

Can you give me any examples of what exactly you have in mind?

Have a look at his writings on Wolnomularstwo; they are obsessive and deranged.
mafketis 24 | 9,161
20 Feb 2020 #34
Catholicism has become so closely intertwined with the very idea of Polishness that one cannot really separate them

Sounds like nonsense to me.... IME most Poles are just not that religious.... (I'm used to american evangelicals so I have a high bar).

For at least the last 70 years or so (and I suspect much longer) the strongest expressions of catholicism happen in a political not spiritual context...

Poles, unlike Americans ime, almost never talk about or think much about religion... and many/most certainly don't follow church doctrine in their everyday lives very closely.

How would you propose to make the distinction in Polish? Ihor jest polski ale nie Polakiem? Sounds awkward... Minh jest polska ale nie Polką? Even worse...

Could someone (in your taxonomy) be a Pole but not Polish?
OP Torq
20 Feb 2020 #35
@mafketis

Gotta go now - I'll answer your post later.
Lenka 3 | 2,473
20 Feb 2020 #36
Sounds like nonsense to me...

To me too. A little bit like a feel good distinction 'i'm the better/real Pole because... '
In reality it's projecting one's own feelings on general public IMO.
Quite awful towards those who do not match that criteria but who cares, right?
Ziemowit 13 | 4,259
20 Feb 2020 #37
Poles, unlike Americans ime, almost never talk about or think much about religion..

This is true. Most ordinary catholic Poles think of their religion in terms of the rituals to perform (or in terms of begging for diviine help in the times of trouble :-). But of course, there are exceptions to this. One of the exceptions I can think of is Torq, another exception are the people belonging to the so-called "grupy oazowe". I have recently met such people on several, non-religious occasions and it is obvious to me they are very much inspired by religion in their every day life. It was a kind of shock for me as a non-religious person and yes, I would definitely say they were not the kind of typical catholic Poles. Far from that.
OP Torq
20 Feb 2020 #38
For at least the last 70 years or so (...) the strongest expressions of catholicism happen in a political not spiritual context...

Politics is an expression of collective will of a given society through their political representatives - that's why in Poland things like illegality of abortion or euthanasia are decided politically, according to the will of overwhelmingly Catholic society. The whole phenomenon of Lech Wałęsa - a union leader with a picture of Saint Virgin Mary in his jacket's lapel - is another example of this. I mentioned wars with muslims, orthodox christians and protestants as something that shaped Polish identity, but let's not forget the more recent events (Solidarity, the fall of communism) in which Catholic Church in Poland played a vital role.

Poles, unlike Americans ime, almost never talk about or think much about religion...

Perhaps not with foreigners. Polish society is similar to Japanese in this regard, I suppose; you can live here for 20-30 years and still feel like an outsider, and people won't be entirely open in their conversations with you (even if you speak perfect Polish, which is extremely rare).

How would you propose to make the distinction in Polish?

I wouldn't. There's no need. We can talk about different degrees of polishness (as Koneczny and Krajski did in their books), without coining new terms or trying to make the division more definite linguistically. Just to make things clear - polishness is more of a philosophical, or maybe rather spiritual, concept, and I would condemn any attempts at creating concrete divisions in the legal or political sphere based on anybody's perception of the term. That was certainly not the point that I was making.

Could someone (in your taxonomy) be a Pole but not Polish?

No, as in a Pole (so, also a Catholic in my understanding of the term) polishness finds its ultimate fulfillment.

many/most certainly don't follow church doctrine in their everyday lives very closely.

Well, hypocrisy is certainly a widespread phenomenon, not only in Poland. Catholics in full meaning of the word are a minority, just as catholic priest who are fully devoted to their faith and epitomes of Christian virtues are a minority among the clergy. Again, we are talking about degrees.

A little bit like a feel good distinction 'i'm the better

It's not about being better or worse. It's about being different. We are not all the same (luckily!). As for being a real Pole, well - as I mentioned here on numerous occasions, for historical/political/cultural reasons - polishness would seem to find its fullest realisation in Polish citizens who are also Catholic faithful. Which doesn't mean they are better than muslim, orthodox or protestant Poles - merely different, with higher degree/measure of polishness in them. That's all. Others that I mentioned may have more Turkish/Tatar, Russian or German traits in them - that we, true Poles, are lacking (so in this regard they have more than we do). People are different - let's celebrate this variety without necessarily pretending that we are all the same regardless of our religion or ethnicity.

Right, I believe I've explained my position abundantly - people may of course agree or disagree with it, but, as I don't like to repeat myself too much, I shall end my commenting on the topic with this post. Those with a bit of good will are going to understand this, others who just want to nickpick will have to find someone else to discuss the matter with. :)

muslim, orthodox or protestant Poles

This, of course, should read "muslim, orthodox or protestant Polish citizens" (according to the distinction I was making in the English language).
Atch 16 | 3,267
20 Feb 2020 #39
polishness would seem to find its fullest realisation in Polish citizens who are also Catholic faithful.

Solidarity etc is a long, long time ago. It may be only thirty years ago, but in terms of the rate at which Poland has changed since then, it's lifetimes ago. You won't find many young working class guys in Poland wearing their Holy Mary badges these days. Poland is becoming more and more a nation of insatiable consumers. And unlike Ireland, where Catholicism is also on the wane, you don't have the social capital that we do. People in Poland seem to have very limited time, empathy or sympathy for others. I think that being Polish in 2020 means being aspirational and focused on material gain, status and position in society.
OP Torq
20 Feb 2020 #40
You won't find many young working class guys in Poland wearing their Holy Mary badges these days.

They wear their scapulars, Holy Mary medals and crosses though - I see many of them.

Poland is becoming more and more a nation of insatiable consumers.

Which is probably true for most societies in Europe.

being Polish in 2020 means being aspirational and focused on material gain, status and position in society

That is most certainly not what "being Polish" means.

Anyway, that's what I like about PF - one can come here and be lectured on what being Polish means by a bunch of Greeks, Irish, Germans or people who left Poland in 1960s. It is all quite amusing :)
Lenka 3 | 2,473
20 Feb 2020 #41
Perhaps not with foreigners

Both me and Ziemowit are native Poles and we seem to share that observation.

Which doesn't mean they are better than muslim, orthodox or protestant Poles - merely different, with higher degree/measure of polishness in them

By that you introduce gradation and split. If someone is more Polish that suggests he is a better Pole.

I met such people on non-religious occasions and it is obvious to me they are very much inspired by religion in their every day life

Oh yes, they are really devoted. Most that I met are a really nice group. That is the kind of faith that really helps go through life I guess. Funny thing is I never met a hateful person among them and they were never preaching to anybody.

@Atch- I find your description as inaccurate as Torq's
Atch 16 | 3,267
20 Feb 2020 #42
Maybe it is. I think it's inevitable that as a foreigner there will be a cultural difference between Poland and where I come from. When I contrast it with Ireland, I find Poland a less caring society.
OP Torq
20 Feb 2020 #43
Both me and Ziemowit are native Poles and we seem to share that observation.

Ziemowit left Poland in 1980s, and you are an emigrant as well (or am I confusing you with someone else?). I, on the other hand, am a Pole born and raised in Poland, who has lived here for most of his life and will continue to do so until my death. If you add to this the fact that I am also an incarnation of the best qualities of the Polish nation (magnanimity, courage, tolerance, kind-heartedness, valor, fortitude and modesty, to name just a few) then you will realise with how much attention and reverence my posts should be read. I feel strange stating the obvious, but sometimes it's necessary on this board.

If someone is more Polish that suggests he is a better Pole.

Not at all. Better/Worse are wrong words to use altogether. He might be Polish to a greater extent, but he doesn't have all those beautiful and valuable Tatar, German or Russian elements. Does that make him better? No, just different.
Atch 16 | 3,267
20 Feb 2020 #44
I am also an incarnation of the best qualities of the Polish nation

I suspect your tongue is firmly in your cheek - at least I hope so!
Lenka 3 | 2,473
20 Feb 2020 #45
You are clearly mixing both mine and Ziemowit's dosier with different posters. And based on that you dismiss our opinions. Your right but silly
OP Torq
20 Feb 2020 #46
I suspect your tongue is firmly in your cheek

Yes, of course, because apart from all the other qualities that I mentioned, I also have a great sense of humour.

based on that you dismiss our opinions

I dismiss nobody's opinions. I simply explain why my opinions are more accurate.
Lenka 3 | 2,473
20 Feb 2020 #47
why my opinions are more accurate.

Why I think my opinions are more accurate.

There, fixed it for you. And as mentioned, you were wrong in your description.

Btw, do you think that one has to be a Catholic to be a Pole is a recent development? Considering you put a lot of emphasis on emigration (understandable when talking about recent events but not much more)
Ironside 50 | 10,922
20 Feb 2020 #48
But are they really Poles, in the full meaning of the word?

I tend to use Polish or Polish people rather than Poles. To answer your question - Sure they are or they can be.
In the same way one who has been born to Polish parents in Poland in a Catholic family doesn't necessary become a "full bodied Pole".

Being a Polish person is a question of culture and values. Hence those people who are not embrancining certain sets of values and axioms I tend to call Soviets even though sometimes they are just rootles plonkers. Those people would fit your definition but not mine. Unless you include in the standard set of a Torq's Pole someone who is immersed into religious practises (Catholics of course).

Koneczny was writing about civilizations and cultures. In that context a one who embraces Polish culture doesn't need to do it on a metaphysical end. Connection between Catholicism and Polish-ness is by far explained by a fact that the Polish nation has been shaped by the religion and western culture.

A Catholic equals a Pole is a pollical program from 100 years ago - By the way formulated by Dmowski who never made it so narrow as you just did.

There, fixed it for you. A

Fix your soviets' leanings and BS axioms first.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,259
20 Feb 2020 #49
Ziemowit left Poland in 1980s,

Oh dear, I might have done so, indeed. If I had done it, I would have been quite a different man today. Why aren't we given a chance to live two lives simultaneously, for example? I am sure I'm still with my one leg in the so-called 'rotten' West. That's why I am on this forum all the time, I guess.
mafketis 24 | 9,161
20 Feb 2020 #50
grupy oazowe

I remember those! Students used to refer to a very religioius person as oaza (plural oazy)

illegality of abortion or euthanasia are decided politically, according to the will of overwhelmingly Catholic society

when abortion was made illegal it was against the will of the majority...

you can live here for 20-30 years and still feel like an outsider, and people won't be entirely open in their conversations with you

I certainly don't feel like an outsider and people have spoken about intensely personal topics with me (really soul-baring kinds of things) but I can count the number of times people have brought up about religion on one hand and have some fingers left....

I think there is a minority of intensely religious Poles (apparently you're one of them) and a larger groupt that are catholic to the extent that they're anything (want to get married in church and have their kids baptised etc) and a group that will say they're catholic if you ask but don't necessarily follow any aspect of the faith...
Atch 16 | 3,267
20 Feb 2020 #51
I think a lot of Polish Catholics are like me and other Irish Catholics, never go to mass or confession, give priests a wide berth, follow our individual conscience rather than church teachings/the Pope's instructions when it comes to issues like abortion, homosexuality etc. However, we pray, go to the church to light a candle. Irish people also feel it's important to do something for others/help those who are in need, be aware of human suffering and try to do what you can to ease it. I think that may be a legacy of our education having been predominantly adminstered by the church and it was ingrained into us that you were supposed to put others before yourself. Perhaps that's why there's less of an obvious spirit of caring for your fellow man in Poland, because children weren't educated by the religious orders. Make any sense??
Ziemowit 13 | 4,259
20 Feb 2020 #52
Am I right Ziem?

Yes, you are. You speak as if you were sitting right inside of my mind and knew this dychotomy in me. The old good England of my youth! Will it ever return to me once again? :-)

they're catholic if you ask but don't necessarily follow any aspect of the faith.

These two latter groups represent the most common attitude in Poland these days. Thinking otherwise, Torq seems to live under some glass cover separating his illusions from the outside world.
OP Torq
20 Feb 2020 #53
Being a Polish person is a question of culture and values.

Definitely.

people who are not embracing certain sets of values and axioms I tend to call Soviets

Could you name those values? You called me a Soviet a couple of times (even though I'm a patriot and a practising Catholic), so I'd just like to check where I fall short of not being a Soviet. ;)

A Catholic equals a Pole is a political program

Not for me. I think I made it clear in my response to Mafketis. My ideal of a true Pole is a philosophical/spiritual concept, nothing to do with politics.

I think there is a minority of intensely religious Poles

True catholics are indeed a minority in the general catholic population, just as true Poles are a minority among Polish population.

But, as I said - there's too much space for misunderstanding, ambiguity and nitpicking here, so I'll just leave it at that.
kaprys 3 | 2,502
20 Feb 2020 #54
In a way I see your point but ...
Off the top of my head: Polish Tatars fought against the Ottoman Empire in the Battle of Vienna. Orthodox Poles were also killed at Katyń.
OP Torq
20 Feb 2020 #55
@kaprys

That's actually a good point. To the extent that I'm willing to somewhat adjust/extend my Theory of True Polishness. I thought about it carefully before replying to you, and here's what I came up with:

If an uncomplete Pole (let's say 85% or even 60% Pole - numbers/estimates are a secondary issue) fights and dies for Poland, actually gives his life in the service of Przenajświętsza Rzeczpospolita, then his soul mystically and misteriously turns 100% Polish at the moment of his death, so on the Day of Judgement he will stand hand in hand with true Poles, and be regarded for eternity as one of them.

Yes, it's a valid point and good improvement of the Theory. Thank you!
Miloslaw 8 | 2,880
20 Feb 2020 #56
then his soul mystically and misteriously turns 100% Polish at the moment of his death

Whist I agree with and respect most of your posts, I think that you are slightly blinkered with your blind faith.
I really do not see any connection between being Polish and being a faithful Catholic.
As long as you follow the basic ideals of Catholicism, and it's main morals, you can still be a true Pole and not believe in God.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,259
20 Feb 2020 #57
then his soul mystically and misteriously turns 100% Polish at the moment of his death

You must have gone mad completely, Torq. On the spiritual level, someone is 100% Polish if he feels 100% Polish. There is no misticism in that.
OP Torq
20 Feb 2020 #58
Whist I agree with and respect most of your posts

The sentiment is entirely reciprocated.

I really do not see any connection between being Polish and being a faithful Catholic (...)

Well, Milo, you are fully entitled to your very own Theory of True Polishness. I have mine.

On the spiritual level, someone is 100% Polish if he feels 100% Polish.

Of course being Polish (on every level) is decided in our hearts and souls, but certain prerequisites have to be fulfilled (like being a Catholic). A woman, for example, cannot suddenly say that she feels 100% pregnant, and a baby magically appears in her womb - no, certain prerequisite conditions have to be met to put her into this blessed state.

*I knew it was a bad idea to discuss the Theory further... people are not yet ready for it; I'm way ahead of my time :-/ *
mafketis 24 | 9,161
20 Feb 2020 #59
but certain prerequisites have to be fulfilled (like being a Catholic)

So you would agree that to be a certain nationality one has to follow a certain religion?

Only muslims can be 100% Turks or 100% Egyptian?

Only protestants can be 100% American?

What about English? Only Church of England are "real" English?

It's a very weird idea that falls all apart the second you start poking at it....
Crow 146 | 9,142
20 Feb 2020 #60
In communism, theoretically, people are same. Like in Islam. Like in Christianity.

You just have to think global and refuse your ethnicity. When you do that you find out some are equal more then others. Then comes the leaders who knows what is good for you. Etc. Same, really. Its just on us what we choose. And we always choose right path. How could we mistake.


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