Saint Virgin Mary Queen of Poland crushes the Red Army

Provoked by a discussion in Random Chat I think this merits a separate thread in the History Section...

"Three and a half Polish infantry divisions fought back eleven Soviet infantry divisions and two cavalry ones (...) 15th August - The Queen of Poland appeared during a night charge of Lieutenant Stanislaw Pogonowski in the small hours, at two different locations in the proximity of the villages Mostki Wolczanskie and Wolka Radzyminska. Awakened by a sudden fusillade, the Red Army troops were truly terrified. They saw the tremendous figure of a woman wafting above the heads of the attacking Polish battalion. A streak of divine light illuminated her, making her well visible in the darkness. There was a halo round her head."

visegradpost.com/en/2016/08/21/the-polish-army-and-the-virgin-mary/

indiancatholicmatters.org/part-ii-blessed-virgin-mary-the-first-miracle-on-polands-vistula-river/

Our nation owes so much to our Dearest Queen that every Pole, worthy of that name, can only cross himself with reverence and repeat after Saint John Paul II: "Totus Tuus!" - I am all yours, my Queen.

Now, I feel sorry for you, Torq. You just diminished their achievement.

I respect you Torq, I do. But look this from another angle. Let Poland just try dare not to repeat "Totus Tuus!" - I am all yours, my Queen and Vatican would not only once kill Poland but trice. One would be anyway. But trice would be for lack of full obedience.

That is just my humble opinion.

I don't think so.

My maternal great-grandfather, Lucjan, was in the Battle of Warsaw (4th Cavalry Brigade). I never spoke to him (he died before I was born), but my family tells me that every time he was asked about the battle he said "It wasn't us, it wasn't Piłsudski, it wasn't the high command - Saint Virgin Mary granted us the victory". It wasn't diminishing anybody's achievements, it was merely acknowledging the deed of Our Lady Queen of Poland.

I feel really disappointed that I have to explain such basics to a Pole (even if it's a Pole who has lived in a foreign land for a very long time).


*sighs*

Its all rather sad. Some people mock with us all.

Can we discuss things without hyperboles?


Same here. What does it mean: I am all yours? That I am paying undivided attention?


What deed? What did she do and how?

It's not about explaining but about belief. Personally I don't believe in any intervention and scarily I'm on Rich's side.


And that is actually very offensive to any patriotic Pole that is not Christian.

We can`t. Truth is that ugly.

You see - Saint Virgin Mary can bring even such different persons as you and Rich together. How great She is!

Hey, even Rich can be right once in a while.
Please, notice that - to my credit - I am not arguing anything so far - just asking questions.
As always, the burden of proof is in the claimants. Under this rule, I don't have to prove that there is no link between God or Mary and the actual events.

I just wonder, what could be price for true freedom of Poles. Do we even can imagine.

That will not last, so your celebration will be short-lived. Also, I find it annoying that one side gets all the credits and never the blame. It is very convenient - I mean that Satan and "free will".

If the Polish army lost, would that be Mary's fault? It did in 1939.

Yes, that might be offensive to any patriotic Polish citizen or person of Polish origin that is not Catholic.

Of course such citizens exist, but I really do think it would be rather innacurate to call them Poles. I mentioned it before, that Catholicism is so deeply intertwined with the very idea of Polishness that it doesn't really make much sense to talk about a Pole who is not a Catholic. Or, at best, we would have to say that Polishness of such person is somewhat flawed and incomplete.

So, for future reference, when I say "a Pole" I mean a Catholic (even a temporarily stray one), and when talking about a person who definitely and completely rejects Catholicism, I will use either the term "Polish citizen" or "person of Polish origin".


Nope. That was simply bad political decisions (late mobilisation), ineffective High Command, and outdated equipment.

And then you talk about the hostility of atheists toward Catholics...Incredible

... you can't always count on miracles. :)


...yes, I have my own theory about it, but let's not drag the thread off-topic too much.

She is right. It's very much on topic as such topics are coming only from the attitudes and what's churning in the believers' heads - not from provable facts.


It is exactly this attitude that made Jewish integration next to impossible. According to you, even I, born in Poland and raised as a Catholic, lost the right to claim that I am Polish. That is ridiculous and would be offensive to many Poles. Not to me, though, since I made every attempt to shed all the vestiges of my "Polishness". So no skin off my nose, but that does not make your statement any less insulting.


Was anything ever Mary's fault?

Bollox.

Jews were always welcomed with open arms in the Catholic Church and there were many converts from Judaism in history. Of course, there was a difference between Catholics and Protestants in this regard. For example, in pre-war Catholic Poland, Poles considered Jewish converts to be Poles, and Jews who decided to cling to their religion were considered Polish citizens of abrahamic confession. In pre-war protestant Germany, Germans considered Jews to be "untermensch" and murdered them regardless of their religious afiliation or lack of it.


Really? Do you completely reject Catholicism and Catholic church? I hope not.

There's an absolutely brilliant book by Stanisław Krajski...

3dom.pro/Stanislaw-Krajski-Odzyskac-polskosc-p449

... in which the author explains abundantly why you cannot really consider yourself Polish and remain outside the One And Only, Holy, Roman and Apostolic, Catholic Church.


No, of course not. Don't be ridiculous.

@Torq
For centuries Poland was far more heterogenous when it comes to religion: we can't forget about the Orthodox, the Jews and others.
Poland has been so religious-wise homogenous only after ww2.

The cult of Virgin Mary is very typical to Catholicism in Poland. I'd say (and someone will surely disagree with me pretty soon), the cult of the saints is not so widespread as in other Catholic countries.

Interestingly enough, when I was in Malta I learnt about a similar miraculous rescue that happened on 15th August (would have to google it ).

Of course. Poland had many Polish citizens living alongside Poles, most of the time in perfect harmony. Have I ever denied that?


Quite possible. Many miracles happened through the intercession of Saint Virgin Mary, all over the world.

I referred to Poland and the Poles like you claiming that only the Polish citizens who are Catholics are Poles. Muslims would agree with that concept.

Miracles suffer from this weird distribution - there are no false negatives. Meaning: phenomena that were explained by science never would later be declared to be miracles. In the science vs miracles sorting process, there were only false positives - the events first claimed to be miracles which were later found not to be miracles. Like a stain on a wall.


Not only do I reject it, but I am hostile to it after they elected a communist to be pope. If that was not enough, this commie, instead of chasing kid raping priests, is full of advice how the US should welcome the hordes of illegals, pay for global warming, distribute its borrowed money and stuff.


You shouldn't have said that without defining miracle and the list that includes places, dates, as what actually happened.

Well, then you are either a "Polish citizen" (if you still have your citizenship) or a "person of Polish origin". Sorry that I called you a Pole, but reading your posts I got the impression that you are a quite intelligent person. I have never met an intelligent atheist so, since you said you came from Poland, I automatically assumed you were a Catholic. My mistake.

I gather from your posts that you failed to read Fides et Ratio. A pity. Oh, well...

You have. You just didn't know they were atheists. Or the cafeteria Catholics who accept the 10 but reject snakes and apples.
Religion is a wonderful character forming idea when we are just out of diapers and as a consolation when we need those diapers again. I was probably the only atheist taking my kids to the CCD classes and, later, to the Sunday mass. It's the crazy stuff that I don't buy as defying logic and so totally unnecessary.

Just as I accept what MLK said but reject the other side of him - which wasn't pretty at all.

The video is 2,5 years old, but in case someone missed it (English subtitles)...

youtu.be/aN73N9EjoM4

Why not? As long as they are somewhat more politically aware that you and support independence of Poland they can be Polish all right.
Only those who reject basic moral values and succumb to progressivism, nihilism, internationalism ad such can be regards as Soviets, because they reject values traditions and axioms that make Poles Polish.


WTF, God works through people, they need to prefect themselves and act together to get that kind of a miracle you are talking about. On the top of few others premises.

Of course they can be Polish. We have Polish Tatars (muslims, and great citizens), Polish evangelicals - good, hard-working citizens etc.. But are they really Poles, in the full meaning of the word? I mean: do they embody fully the logos and ethos of being a Pole, so to speak? In my opinion: no.

All of the religious minorities fought for Poland for centuries. Even during the partitions of Poland. Why would you say they're not Polish?

It sounds like you're trying to introduce the Rosjanin/Russki distinction of Russian (citizen of Russia vs ethnic Russian) into Polish... Why? Has such a distinction ever existed?

Does everyone who's an 'ethnic' Pole fit that criteria?

Is the Pole in Pułtusk who's a Mariavite any less of a Pole than her neighbour who's Catholic?

It is not a new idea; it was introduced by professor Feliks Koneczny in his "Polskie logos a ethos", and repeated in many other publications, most recently in Stanisław Krajski's "Odzyskać polskość" (the third part of Obudź się Polsko series).

The general idea behind this distinction is that Catholicism has become so closely intertwined with the very idea of Polishness that one cannot really separate them. It has also been a distinctive factor in Poland's history, especially the struggles with Muslim Turks, Orthodox Russians and Protestant Germans and Swedes - Catholicism defined us as a nation to a larger extent than most people realise.


They are both Polish but not equally Poles. Complicated, I know, but so is Poland.