Recommended Poland's history books

@mafketis
I have a different view. I know us crimes are as bad as soviet crimes if not worse. Soviet intention was economic and political reform. US crimes were crimes of eradication

J all mighty we have another commie in our mist.

Serious question here....if you yourself could and needed to chose during Stalins times, where would you prefer to live....US or Sovietunion?

the USSR visited horrors upon its citizenry worse than anything the US did.

Having a "nice" motive doesn't change that.

@Bratwurst Boy
I am content living where I do I like Europe. If I had been born in either place I would on balance, probably be just as content as I am now.

The question of which system is better for the individual is irrelevant. The discussion is about the historical record of both systems. I don't believe that either Stalinism or unfettered capitalism tinged with evangelical religious overtones work for most people.

@mafketis
I don't think so, both systems fcuked people over in pursuit of their respective ideologies.

...nice mentality! :)

But I wouldn't talk down "individuality" so much, after all that is the reason why the capitalist countries never have to ask for immigrants, they come running! The promise of fulfilling individual dreams...no "collective-ideology-society" can hold a leg to that, never could!

Thank you.

People move for a better life individuality has nothing to do with it. For example the people who go to the Gulf dictatorships do so for money not because they can criticise the rulers.

in Hofstede's cross cultural studies (largest scale research in social science history IINM) the only dimension of culture that has a strong correlation with wealth is individualism vs collectivism (more accurately 'nuclear family oriented' or 'extended family/clan oriented').

when countries get richer they become more individualistic collective clan orientation provides protection from poverty but also reinforces poverty...


and because they don't have other, more attractive, options...

'power distance' (how much inequality is tolerated by those with less power) also has a weaker correlation with wealth though countries where the less powerful tolerate inequality (like Latin America or russia) tend to have small super rich elites and gigantic have-not classes with no real non-violent means of material advancement

This thread has gone off kilter. The current book in discussion has absolutely nothing to do with US presidents and Native American and their death tolls.

This method of "deflection" derails many threads on this forum. Many historical topics I've tried to read just desintegrate into the ozone and the rest of the thread is plain garbage, usually way off topic.

Yes, but contemporary imperial Russians vehemently deny those facts and create their own "versions" of history.

They know themselves that nothing good ever comes from r*SSia.

Has anyone heard of Polish historian Pawel Jasienica?

He was a journalist, historian and soldier. He was born in Russia to Polish parents and educated in Lithuania. When the Russian Revolution started his folks moved to the newly independent Poland. Jasienica was a prolific author and five of his most popular books have been translated into English. Of the five his trilogy of the Commonwealth has been a "best seller" in Poland and even here.

I read THE COMMONWEALTH OF BOTH NATIONS III: A TALE OF AGONY many years ago. Currently I'm reading THE COMMONWEALTH OF BOTH NATIONS II: CALAMITY OF THE REALM. The trilogy was published in English in 1992.

His narrative style flows like storytelling. He was very influential in popularizing Polish history during the 1960s. He's a "popular historian" rather than an academic type.
The volume that I'm reading starts with the death of Wladyslaw IV and goes through the Deluge.

Why I'm asking about him is that he is the most critical Polish historian I've ever read. He will describe an event, a city,, a campaign, a sejm, a commander, a truce, whatever and comment on the incredible ineptness of the Polish in face of Cossacks, Tatars, Muscovites and Swedes. Truly he really gives credence to the term "dumb polak". He doesn't hold anything back. I was shocked a little.

In doing some research about him I found that he is credited with a strong command of historical sources. With that command he adds a lot of comments that present a broader picture of these disastrous times.. his interpretations are definitely NOT complimentary of Polish leadership, diplomacy, priorities, "patriotism", etc. I've never read this view in other Polish history books. And these books were best sellers in Poland.

Unfortunately, Jasienica died young of cancer at 60 years old.

@marion kanawha
Due to a lot of events last 200 years in Polish history it has been important to find out what works, what doesn't work and reform it before it's not possible. Finding causes of mistakes and wrong doings as not to repeat them and underline current policies being popularised by certain political groups.

More authoritarian leaning groups worried about illegitimate tyranny from abroad will parrot many points made by partitioning powers about centralisation, strong state etc while more idealist groups will focus on the achievements of Polish society state and the failures of partitioning powers and draw in successes of other countries whom to copy cat.

This will be reflected in history books, wether it's critical or not. More importantly to score a winning argument against other political side and it's view on history.

yes, I still possess his Jagiellonian Poland on the shelves. Not bad as a reading, but I always prefered Norman Davies` style.

His style is not very good. He can't hold a candle to Jasienca. Admit it, you haven't read either author.

Stop projecting. I never lie in the forum. What for??? I have my dignity. Ha!!!

Besides, it is you who are troubled with historical ignorance far too often.

Poland hosts a few sites where Soviet POWs were annihilated by Nazi Germans.

About 15 years ago, while travelling to northern Poland, we drive next to such a site.

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LOL! That is why I know you are lying. What dignity?

After reading Polish history and the histories of Eastern Europe, I stared to reflect on the utter brutality of existence. The butchery is absolutely mind boggling!!! I sit back and say to myself I'm lucky that I was born, that there's an existent line of descendants that produced me. I sometimes thought of my ancestors who came to America as bombastic idiots. Naturally not all of them; some of them. If they were alive today I would kiss their hands as thanks for having the foresight to pack up and leave the "old country" and make a new life in the USA. I had a great-uncle who came here but left his wife and kids in Russia (then later Poland). After WW II he never heard from any of them ever again. He died alone in the USA in the 1950s I think. Geez! By the grace of God I am.

Personal. I am shocked you don`t know such basic issues.


Cancer was a direct cause but there had been certain circumstances which contributed to it. E.g,, Jasienica, for supporting the opposition, was oppressed by communist authorities including the First Secretary Gomułka who slandered the writer in one of public speeches. 30 agents spied on Jasienica, including his own wife who was a confirmed secret service worker. He had a difficult life in communist Poland.

And the finale of the informing wife story was:

After the Institute of National Remembrance archives revealed in 2002 that the writer's widow had collaborated with the Security Service, his only daughter, Ewa Beynar-Czeczott, refused to consent to further reissues of Jasienica's works and filed a motion with the court to take away the inheritance rights (including copyrights ) from the agent's son from her first marriage, Marek O'Bretenny, stating that the mother from whom he inherited was unworthy of inheriting after Paweł Jasienica, as she had acted to the detriment of her husband . Until the dispute was resolved, Jasienica's works remained unpublished. On 28 December 2006, the court granted exclusive copyrights to the writer's daughter; while Jasienica's stepson was to receive his stepfather's book collection. This paved the way for the reissue of Jasienica's works.
The writer and his secret service wife

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I just finished Jasienica's HE COMMONWEALH OF BOTH NATIONS II: CALAMITY OF THE REALM, 1992 English version. He more I read about this historian (plus the comments made above), the more someone should make a movie about his life!!! He lived a jam-packed life, did a lot of things and died young.
He was a journalist first and foremost. This is how he made his living. He was a contributor and editor of newspapers, magazines, weeklies, etc. he also worked for PAX Association and became director of the Polish Caritas charity.

PAWEL JASIENICA WAS NOT HIS REAL NAME. it was his "pen name". his real name was Leon Lech Beynar. How did this happen? He was a soldier. He was in the Polish army, captured by the Wehrmacht but managed to escape. He joined the Armia Krajowa and was also an editor of an underground newspaper. Attempting to dislodge the Nazis from Wilno his outfit was captured by the Soviets. He was given a choice to join the Soviets or spend vacation in Siberia. Instead, he escaped and rejoined the AK. He then joined the anti-Soviet campaign and was wounded in August, 1945 (remember the was "ended" in May, 1945 in Europe). The village of Jasienica was the place where he was recuperating from his wounds. He used this name to hide from the communists.

He was always in trouble with the government because of is outspoken views concerning freedom of speech and expression. In the 1960s he started his history books and got into more trouble over censorship. Wow! What a life!!!

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  As a young officer in Polish Army
  
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  Late 1960s with his secret police wife Zofia Darowska O'Bretenny
  

Some interesting points about Jasienica's style of historical writing. He's considered a popular historian rather than an academician. The books I've been reading have no footnotes, no bibliography, no preface or introduction and no index. It's like picking up a novel. He oftentimes references historians that he evidently uses as sources but unless you are seeped in Polish history you wouldn't know who they are.

Because he was always in such trouble with the government, he purposely stayed away from writing modern Polish history like the Second Republic or World War II. He would have had to tailor his history according to the prevailing Marxist historiography of the time. That's why he picked the Piasts, the Jagiellons, the Commonwealth. Google says that his books, after his death in 1970, became the most reprinted histories of Poland.

What I wish was translated into English was his TRZEJ KRONIKARZE (THREE CHRONICLERS), 1964. It's the story of three Medieval chroniclers of Polish history and they provide a great overview of society throughout the ages. He also wrote DWIE DROGI (TWO WAYS), 1959, about the January Uprising --- an even I'm always interested in because of my family. This book is not in English. Too bad!

You have no dignity, that's the point. You are confusing it with digital, it is not the same.
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Yes, one day it will take place. It will be either an action film or a thriller.


Exactly. The life of a decent person and a patriot of Poland who got a little lost in life when he joined that nationalist PAX but in fact he had no choice.

Yes I had to Google the PAX Assoc. A communist Catholic organization? More nationalistic?
I have to admit I had to read his books and write down stuff he mentions, then I had to Google that info to fully understand. When I came to his life I had to do the same thing.

Yes, set up by a famous pre war fascist who got arrested by Soviets and nearly executed during WW2 but decided to collude and create a "catholic" organisation whose aim was to compete with the Church.

Patriotic anticommunist veterans who were released from stalinist prisons but couldn`t find a job due to continuous revengeful oppression by communists were invited to join PAX. For many it was really a safe haven. Judging them today would be unfair.

Good info. Thanks for the insights. I'm learning alot!

Did you know that PAX`s formerly fascist, later communist nationalist leader, Bolesław Piasecki, lost his son in a mysterious act of kidnapping and murder?? The case hasn`t been solved till today.