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Whom do the people in Poland hate more: Germans or Russians?


hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
25 Nov 2011 #571
is an oversimplification of such colossal proportions

Sounds like moral relativism. What you say is quite simply crap. According to your logic Germany should feel no compunction in apologizing for the past, and yet they have, because they realize that they bear a collective responsibility for what was perpetrated in their country's name. Luckily for us they do not subscribe to your view of the world, unfortunately Russia does. As for the victims, all I will say is that I am sure they knew perfectly well who was responsible for their fate
Teffle 22 | 1,321
25 Nov 2011 #572
Russians by the way, as far as I can see, from the Poles I know.

The Germans may have been bastards but at least you knew where you stood with them and there was a logic, even if twisted - Russians on the other hand are little better than animals.

...seems to be the gist.
PeterWeg03
25 Nov 2011 #573
To say "Germany or Russia has done harm to Poland" is an oversimplification of such colossal proportions that not only a disservice is done to us and our children but it is literally spitting on the suffering of those who did so in the past.

My father is an example. He hated Stalin and Hitler, but liked the Russians even though they put him in a camp and killed his father and other family. Weird that he disliked the Germans as a people even though they never did anything to him personally.

My new family basically hate the Russians more than the Germans, on the basis of what they did went on for far longer and was very recent.
POLENGGGs 2 | 150
26 Nov 2011 #574
they hate themselves the most. Thats why I refuse to live in Poland.... Stalin gave them Silesia, Pomerania, East Prussia.... and they are very proud of Wrocław but hate the commie scum at the same time - what is it that they achieved ? Monte Cassino , lol that was the Allies and the Allies did not care that the volunteers came from Poland.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
26 Nov 2011 #575
Sounds like moral relativism. What you say is quite simply crap.

If it sounds like that it's because you read it wrong, out loud. Shut up and listen!

According to your logic Germany should feel no compunction in apologizing for the past

No, that's what you imagine my logic to be but I don't think of a nation as one living and breathing entity like I would a person- your inability to think differently is preventing you from absorbing the point being made. The idea that Germany, or any other nation is some entity that gets up in the morning, has something to eat and then is out the door and off to work and thinks in one mind about topic x is naive at best.

To speak of (any) entire society rolled up into one character is the kind of simplicity that appeals to dim wits and it is the stuff the mob is made of.

As for the victims, all I will say is that I am sure they knew perfectly well who was responsible for their fate

Sure they do and it certainly wasn't Hanz who's all of 25 years old and works as a nurse in Heidelberg. Who exactly is to "bear collective responsibility" in your opinion? All Germans (or Italians or Russians) alive today?

That's the same attitude that dumb yanks have when some kid exclaims "we won ww2," never mind he's not even lived enough to know the difference between his arse and his elbow.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
26 Nov 2011 #576
but I don't think of a nation as one living and breathing entity like I would a person-

Again crap. I understand you very well, I just think that you are completely wrong. Like I mentioned before a government is representative of its nation, especially a government that has been elected by them as was the case with the Nazis who were democratically elected by the German people to represent them. Hitler and the Nazis weren't backward in coming forward about what their polices were, they spelled them out in very clear detail.

Putting it in a simple way. If your father/son murdered someone, would you feel any sense of responsibility or guilt for the victims fate?

polices

Typo. i meant policies
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
26 Nov 2011 #577
I understand you very well,

The problem is you don't understand yourself at all!

Like I mentioned before a government is representative of its nation, especially a government that has been elected by them as was the case with the Nazis who were democratically elected by the German people to represent them. Hitler and the Nazis weren't backward in coming forward about what their polices were, they spelled them out in very clear detail.

I highlighted a key word for you in your rant. That was quite some time ago, the perpetrators are overwhelmingly dead. The people they once represented are either dead or a very small aging minority. Never mind that I can almost choose at random at with great frequency countries in which the government doesn't truly represent the wishes of the majority.

Putting it in a simple way.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM! It cannot be reduced to a "simpler way" because it is infinitely more complex than that! You have just shown that YOU DON'T understand the problem with that AT ALL.

If your father/son murdered someone, would you feel any sense of responsibility or guilt for the victims fate?

Firstly, if it were my son then I'd feel a sense of guilt. If it were my father- I feel no sense of guilt for any of his transgressions, I wasn't around to give him guidance.

Secondly the stupid analogy you've tried to illustrate would make the equivalent to the father and not the son being a scourge on humanity. At an individual level, courts tend to uphold the notion that children do not bear responsibility for their parents' actions. Even if your analogy had any ground, you'd have lost it there.

Thirdly, it's a retarded oversimplification that in no way bears accuracy to the complexity of a society. I'm sorry but I really suspect you're just simply unintelligent to the point you aren't capable of grasping this. You like simple ideas that can be summed up in a phrase or two because that's about as much as you can process.

Run along now and go waste someone else's time.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
26 Nov 2011 #578
I see so what you are saying is that nobody bears responsibility for the Holocaust, and the survivors/victims should get over it. What is more you believe that the German government was wrong to pay compensation to the Jews for their suffering. You also probably believe that native title is a stupid idea in the Australian context etc. Just so that you know those ideas are divergent from mainstream of public debate and are usually held by far right groups.

Sorry but I disagree.
southern 75 | 7,096
26 Nov 2011 #579
The Poles do not really hate Russians.They think more of them as the crazy bully brothers.
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
26 Nov 2011 #580
crazy bully

if someone is perceived crazy and bullying at that, there is usually hardly any sympathy involved
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
26 Nov 2011 #581
I see so what you are saying is that nobody bears responsibility for the Holocaust, and the survivors/victims should get over it.

No, in no way shape or form is that what I stated nor can I understand how a rational thinking person could come to that conclusion based on the words I wrote. You are literally too stupid to understand the basic premise being stated and perceive anything that doesn't fit to your narrow view of the world to be some kind of hate speech. You have no argument and cannot make relevant the points you've been trying to argue so, at last when you realize your point of view is bankrupt, you start trying to label what I'm saying as right wing.

Here's a task for you: Go highlight the words you think I typed which you think are represented by radical right wing groups, not your dumb a.s.s. interpretation, just the actual words. Go boy! Fetch!
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
26 Nov 2011 #582
It's interesting how when you are loosing the argument you resort to personal abuse, you just realized that you have walked into an elephant trap and you can't turn back.

The fact that you have omitted the second part of my post speaks volumes, because you just realized that your belief if put into practice would mean that the German government would have never apologized for its past, and would have never compensated the people who survived the Holocaust. Or I am getting you wrong, do you actually believe that the apology and compensation were not warranted given that you ideology indicates that is the case since you believe that the present generation bears no reprehensibility for the past?
Wroclaw Boy
26 Nov 2011 #583
Poland lost many nationals in the East during the border shifting and expelled the Germans in the West...then there are the Jews murdered by Grandparents

Brat Boy - the perfect German?
skysoulmate 14 | 1,296
27 Nov 2011 #584
NINAZIEMSKIJANA, brisrodney & redskyrsky - great posts from the three of you. Personally I don't hate the Russians but I don't trust them either.
Teffle 22 | 1,321
27 Nov 2011 #585
Personally I don't hate the Russians but I don't trust them either.

Funny, that's more or less exactly what Poles have said to me about Germans.
Ogorki - | 114
27 Nov 2011 #586
Someone mentioned that Bratwurst Boy was not here anymore? That's a shame. Got noone to wipe the floor with now :(

Throughout history Poland has stopped Russia having it's way with Europe and stopped the Germanics having their way with Europe (not to mention the Swedes, Muslims and Gengis Khan) Both Russia and germany have a chip on their shoulders about this and in recent history got a little of what they wanted in WWII by ganging up on Poland. Even then Poland stopped them. (Yes - I know the allies eventually joined in) Poland just wants to live in peace with both neighbours but they - just - keep rocking the boat. What you gonna do?
skysoulmate 14 | 1,296
27 Nov 2011 #587
Someone mentioned that Bratwurst Boy was not here anymore? That's a shame. Got noone to wipe the floor with now :(

Correct, he left and I don't blame him. I don't remember him defending nazism or war atrocities or even whitewashing the German (nazi) war crimes. Ever. On the ATP forum he even claimed that Germans caused more suffering than the Russians did. I disagreed with him but am bringing this up to show that this German you like to stomp on isn't as devilish as you claim. He's proud to be a German and rightfully so. I don't always agree with him but am yet to see this nazi boy mentality so many here think he espouses. Nothing could be further from the truth.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
27 Nov 2011 #588
You probably don't realize that before he was bratwurst boy, he used to go by a different name and some of his earlier posts weren't all that pleasant to read. Although in recent times he did make quite a valuable contribution to the forum with some good jokes.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,296
27 Nov 2011 #589
Well, no I wasn't aware of that. Is it proven it was the same person though? I'm only defending the posts written by BB as that's all I know. I like to see his perspective, sometimes I'd agree and sometimes I'd disagree; I'm glad I can keep discussing issues with him even though it's on a different forum.

Franky the whole notion of posting under different screen names is very perplexing to me, why would anyone want to do that?? It's like having a discussion with yourself, I guess I just don't get it?? You'll never see me posting under a different screen name, here or on ATP. If it doesn't say sky... it ain't me. Oh well, enough about that.
southern 75 | 7,096
27 Nov 2011 #590
Bratwurst boy started his career in PF with largely different opinions from what he supports now he was hardcore germanic in his views but later he softened pressed by audience.He was very irritant and provocative eg you Poles provided us the battleground to fight against real soldiers like the Russians etc.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
27 Nov 2011 #591
It's interesting how when you are loosing the argument you resort to personal abuse

Well seeing as you started with an insult it goes to show you had lost before you even started. Look champ, I'm not commenting on ww2 suffering, you brought that topic in and the only reason why I can imagine you did that is because you're either really really stupid and can't see how it isn't relevant to the essence of what I stated or you knew your argument is flawed so you started to argue towards a point (that I didn't make) where you can be first to shout "racist!" Sorry, you're really not up to this and it showed before you even got out of the gate. Your "trap" was and is entirely in your imagination and if you believe that to be sophistication then you are beyond help.

The fact that you have omitted the second part of my post speaks volumes

Yes it does.

because you just realized that your belief if put into practice would mean that the German government would have never apologized for its past

No that is not the reason why. If the Germans want to feel a collective responsibility then that's their decision. Notice the word in bold here kid because that IS the only thing I've been arguing here and you still haven't got it.

Or I am getting you wrong,

Completely. I am not commenting on what happened you imbecile. Until otherwise proven, ww2 isn't up for debate and why you're insinuating it is reveals a great many unflattering things about you.

since you believe that the present generation bears no reprehensibility for the past

I never stated that.

I only showed you that if we are to use these analogies where by we refer to a country as person then that is exactly the belief YOU WOULD HAVE TO HAVE. Let's back it up again kid and see if you can catch the train this time. This is using the terminology YOU have defended.

If your father/son murdered someone, would you feel any sense of responsibility or guilt for the victims fate?

Ok present day "Germany" becomes the child and Nazi "Germany" becomes the father:

A father commits a terrible crime, he kills and tortures 6 members of a family (let's say there's 40 people in the family) and 6 other people from other families. Do we make his children pay restitution? The courts of most western countries generally seem to say "no."

Is it now clear why referring to societies in such simplistic and reduced terms is a very dangerous thing? Do you now see how issues can become clouded? Do you now understand how ascertaining the intricacies of societal and cultural matters is lost in such reductions?

f'n hell can any other regular posters here verify if that is clear?
legend 3 | 664
27 Nov 2011 #592
For a while he seemed rather calm and right at the end that hardcore germanic viewpoint started to show itself.

Correct, he left and I don't blame him.

I agree completely.

--------

Oh to answer the question...

Im no expert so Ill just say from my experience.

Poland has fought with Russia probably more than Germany (or its predecessors). [~1000AD-1700AD] Obviously we had fights with the Teutons too though.
After that it was about equal. [Partitions and World War(s))].

Overall I think directly Germany did more harm (Prussia and WWII Germany). Indirectly Russia did more harm (communism).

Today I respect both those countries history and statehood itself. There was no doubt dark times in Polands history because of these giant neighbours. Perhaps I favor Russia more today because of Slavic roots.
southern 75 | 7,096
27 Nov 2011 #593
Poles are fundamentally different from Germans and Russians.Russians do not regard them as slavic enough or call them slavic traitors while Germans think of them as non germanic deceitful etc.To balance between these two is really an achievement.Amount of german and russian bullying is gross and shows off in person so Poles probably have suffered.They failed to create a buffer zone between the two because they lacked the same attitude and were not estimated as a power.
sascha 1 | 826
27 Nov 2011 #594
Bratwurst boy started his career in PF with largely different opinions from what he supports now he was hardcore germanic in his views but later he softened pressed by audience.

he has now a higher ground, being moderator and somewhat mächtig like a dictator... ;)

To balance between these two is really an achievement.

exactly. they were always, or most of the time in the sandwich lage.

I don't remember him defending nazism or war atrocities or even whitewashing the German (nazi) war crimes. Ever.

sorry, but in order to defend you dont have to do it literally. the attitude is enough and his is fascho.

On the ATP forum he even claimed that Germans caused more suffering than the Russians did.

thats correct. the russians did harm to their people. germans to half of the world during ww2

He's proud to be a German and rightfully so.

by listening to fascho music and collecting helmets? come on...

I don't always agree with him but am yet to see this nazi boy mentality so many here think he espouses. Nothing could be further from the truth.

ok. some proove that you are wrong.

"Hmm...I want my tribe (Germans), my people (Germanics), my race (Whites) thrive and flourish (and that implies culture AND genes).
I don't care so much about how the others fare (I wish them well though)....that's all there is to it I think!"

"Must be nice to live in such a upside-down world Southern....but then, you are Greek!"

"Hague will be more fair to the Serbs as Nuremburg was to the Germans, believe me!"

"...maybe it should be scratched completely for a generation or two, being made really irrelevant!"


just a few of his "brilliant" statements. furthermore putting the iq table from a right wing organisation in order to proove his "racial theory"...

They failed to create a buffer zone between the two because they lacked the same attitude and were not estimated as a power.

they were once a power, but my guess is that the permanent struggle gen westen und osten made them tired. so in total i would guess unentschieden regarding "hate"... ;)
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
28 Nov 2011 #595
If the Germans want to feel a collective responsibility then that's their decision.

Stop shifting the argument. According to your belief the Germans should not apologize full stop. Because as you so clearly stated "To say Germany or Russia has done harm to Poland" is an oversimplification of such colossal proportions", which quite obviously is an attempt to minimize the actions of the Russians and Germans by breaking the link between the people and the state.

that is not the reason why. If the Germans want to feel a collective responsibility then that's their decision.

And how else do the Germans do that except through the actions of the state which represents them, just as it did in WWII.

Until otherwise proven, ww2 isn't up for debate

I see, straight from the David Irving school of history.

I never stated that.

No, but that is exactly what your ideas imply and that is the logical end step of your belief, perhaps your'e to stupid too realize it.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
28 Nov 2011 #596
According to your belief the Germans should not apologize full stop.

It's like you're purposely being stupid. When I say "Germany or Russia didn't do harm to Poland" what I'm saying is neither Germany, Russia nor Poland are set individuals. Some 10 year-old kid in Russia didn't have anything to do with hurting anyone in Poland or anywhere else. Yet that kid is Russia. A 32 year old assembly worker- should he feel guilt? What about an au-pair living abroad? Should she feel guillt? Should that 10-year old feel a sense of guilt? The guilty should feel guilt and no one else. If you can't digest that then you've no business being in this conversation.

No that's your argument using the terminology you defend.

No, but that is exactly what your ideas imply and that is the logical end step of your belief, perhaps your'e to stupid too realize it.

The very conclusion I wrote is where the terminology you use will lead you to. That's not on me punk, that's your problem. If you don't like it then change your way of communicating.

And how else do the Germans do that except through the actions of the state which represents them, just as it did in WWII.

That's none of my business, the only thing I objected to then as I do now is to speak about any entire society of people as one singular entity. It's a stupid way to communicate complex ideas for stupid people- I can see why it appeals to you. What I find utterly exasperating is that you actually fail to see or deny seeing the messed up conclusions one can logically come up with if we accept such oversimplifications.

Everything I've written has been in an effort to show you exactly what logical end YOU HAVE TO arrive at IF YOU USE THE TERMINOLOGY YOU'RE DEFENDING. I have only attacked the terminology for being inaccurate and overly simplistic.

Countries.
Aren't.
People.
sascha 1 | 826
28 Nov 2011 #597
Countries.
Aren't.
People.

that is correct though not at all practised in reality...just look in the youngest history...

regarding the thread my guess is that poles if you have to call it like that 'hate' more the germans...they made a real frakkin mess in pl...probably because of the closeness and the doktrine lebensraum im osten/slaves are untermenschen....
Curious1
29 Nov 2011 #598
Hi!
First time poster. Great debate!
I want to know what you think of my friend; who thinks that even if in a powerful position Poland would never commit such mass killings, as Germany and Russia had done in the 20th century. Not necesarrily because some Poles in power might not want to, but because Poles would not stand for it. Are Poles that epic as my friend thinks. If so then the Germans and Russians would never understand so Poland shouldnt expect much. Comments?
skysoulmate 14 | 1,296
29 Nov 2011 #599
Curious - good question and I don't know the real answer to it, no one does as it's a purely hypothetical exercise. My personal opinion is that Poles aren't different from Germans or from Russians however they comprise a highly individualistic society, one that prides itself in preserving old traditions and does not like to conform to "universal" thoughts of mind. (I'll leave out religion from this discussion)

The murderous "achievements" of the nazis and the communists were a result of two very deranged ideologies, two beliefs that fought and hated one another yet were eery similar if not identical. One murdered in the name of your race while the other did just the same in the name of your class.

Even though there were communist sympathizers in Poland the ideology had to be forced upon the majority of Poles, they never accepted it with open arms the way most Russians did. There have been atrocities committed by Poles, some better documented than others. However, I don't think Poles would ever be able to commit mass atrocities on the scale of the Russian and German atrocities because totalitarianism was then, and still is a very foreign subject to most Poles.
legend 3 | 664
29 Nov 2011 #600
Would the Poles have done something like Hitler or Stalin/Lenin/Trotsky? I will say probably not but no one really knows.

However Poles done harm on smaller scales (Polish/Russian conflicts, Polish/Ukrainian conflicts, Polish/Czechs).

What would happen had Germany not invaded Poland? Would the Russians still invade? Would Poland try to gain more land?
No idea.

I have heard somewhere that Hitler had offered Poland (maybe it was Piłsudski?) to attack Russia? With a person like Hitler in power even if Poland had gained more land in the east its possible the Germans would still want their Prussia land back.


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