Destructions of Poland thoughout centuries

No, they actually see the "Deluge" as a good thing from their perspective.


Nope.

No, it is completely unknown. Swedish diplomats and regular Swedes who come to Poland learn about it for the first time. Come on, how many Poles know that once Polish troops invaded Moldova or fought in San Domingo? :):):):)

every Pole knows about San Domingo as to Moldova every Pole Knows Poland conrol the region for some time with war agains Turks.

Sorry, quite the opposite. Ask your Polish granny! Go out and ask your next door Poles.


You cherish illusions. :):):):)

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Poland had at some point invaded Moldova. In the interwar years, it also had serious border disputes with Czechoslovakia and annexed Cieszyn in 1938.

Poland has historically been expansionist and colonialist, and there is only one thing that stopped it from becoming like Russia. Russia. Of course, Poland's not alone in this. Germany to the West and Hungary to the south were other expansionist European powers, and the only reason Poland and Hungary had maintained generally good relations is because they seldom had competing territorial interests. The same cannot be said for Germany.

Of course not. Poles only defended their own territory. Yes, sometimes they crossed the borders, but it was in pure defence of Poles who lived out of Poland.

Now, now, what about Polish troops invading Moscow? I don't believe there were many Poles living there at the time.

Pure defence against aggressive politics of Muscovites who, for over a century then, had been trying to expand their territory at the cost of Lithuania who was allied with Poland. Poles defended Lithuanians` asses and their own in the longer run, too. The same in Moldova - Poles tried to pacify local Turks who endangered Polish southern borders.

I sometimes wish Poles had been as aggressive and expansionistic as Germans or Russians. We wouldn`t have many of today`s problems. But we were always too delicate, forgiving and tolerant. Catholic upbringing!! Hence such frequent devastations of Poland by our neighbours.

Were those territories ethnically Lithuanian? What business was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth doing on territories inhabited by Finno-Ugric Estonians, Baltic Latvians, and Eastern Orthodox Slavic Ruthenians/Belarusians/Ukrainians and Russians?

I'm awfully tempted to say that what they were actually doing is expanding. Russia was naturally doing the very same thing, and was competing with Poland over control. And in the expansionist race, it's Russia that has ultimately prevailed.

it was the Sigismund Vasa policy making - he wanted to plant his son a tsar of Russia we have paid dearly for his ambition because the offensive wars with Muscovy created hatred among the Russian population against Poles

OK, you convinced me. :):):)

Territories of old Kiev Rus had been conquered by Lithuanians in medieval times. After joining Poland and Lithuania by the Union of Lublin it naturally became part of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. You have to remember that Ruthenian and Lithuanian boyars unlike Lithuanian aristocracy supported this union looking for privilages of Polish nobility which were promised to them by king Sigmund II August.

When it comes to Livonia - territories inhabited by Latvians and Estonians read about Treaty of Vilnius 1559, 1561. Rulers of that territories - Livonian Order in exchange for political and economic freedoms put themself under protection of Polish king. Every Batic power of XVIth century wanted to control Livonians ports - especially Russians, Swedes and Denmark. Livonian Order knowing that they cant hold this lands seeked for best option and they chosed Poland and Lithuania.

This is one of phenomens of Polish-Lithuanian state - expansion not by war but by unions with other states.

By the way - Polish invasion on Russia in 1609 was our answer on Swedish-Russian alliance directed against Poland. It was simply another act of Polish-Russian-Swedish conflict not "Polish expansionism" and will to conquer Russia.

don't say Sigismund Vasa didn't have ambitions in relation to the Russian throne and that the Swedish-Russian alliance was due to the dynastic policies of the mentioned Sigismund Vasa (regaining the control of the Swedish crown)

Lol, I wouldn't blame a Catholic upbringing. It certainly didn't help our neighbours be any less brutal. The Germans were originally Catholic too, and aside from having rather different liturgical traditions, the Russian Orthodox faith is in actual fact very similar to Catholicism.

Being Catholic did make Poles a royal pain in the ass when under foreign domination, though, and probably helped prevent too many Poles assimilating into Protestant Prussia and Orthodox Russia. If Poland had been Orthodox, religious Poles would look up to the Patriarch of Moscow instead of the Bishop of Rome, and since Polish would have been written in the Cyrillic alphabet, Poles would have found it much easier to assimilate into the Russian empire.

Nowadays, the territories of Poland and Germany are quite similar in size, so both countries ultimately ended up mediocre, probably due to, quite simply, their geographical location. Russia was the big winner simply by virtue of the fact that it was the easternmost European power, and the fact that there weren't many people east of the Urals who could check its expansion. Were it not for Soviet domination in the 20th Century, I'd imagine both Poland and Germany would have achieved a comparable level of economic development too.

But only Poles treated faith seriously and truly believed in God, 10 commandments etc !! Germans believed in technological progress (one day in Fuhrer too), while Russians blindly believed in their tsars.


Yes, they swallowed us but couldn`t digest. :):):):)

LOL! Brilliant! :D

Hey! It wasn`t me who invented this saying. To the best of my knowledge, a French philosopher at the time of First Partition of Poland.

I was not aware that they ware independent state then Poland invade them, maybe you could shed some light on it like when and who did it, or you just projecting your incorrect vision.

It seems the discussion on the first destruction is over so.....


Yes! It happened half a century later, in 1700. Foreign armies fought their war on the Polish territory for 20 years. Poland was ruined again and indeed, in 1717, it became formally vassalised by Russia (yet, not partitioned yet).

remus.shidler.hawaii.edu/genes/wprussia/Great%20Northern%20War/home.htm

Long years of war, with the constant billetings and tramping of troops across the country, had brought widespread ruin. In Poland, the Russian, Swedish and Saxon armies alike lived off the land over which they maneuvered, falling mercilessly on village and town for contributions of money and supplies. It is estimated that 60 million thalers were extorted in this way more than triple the total revenue of the Polish government budget throughout the Great Northern War.

1717 - Poland becomes Russia`s most important sphere of influence.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Sejm

Silent Sejm (also Dumb Sejm and literally Mute Sejm, Belarusian: Нямы сойм; Polish: Sejm Niemy; Lithuanian: Nebylusis seimas) is the name given to the session of the Sejm (parliament) of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth of 1 February 1717. A civil war in the Commonwealth was used by the Russian Tsar Peter the Great as an opportunity to intervene as a mediator. It marked the end of Augustus II of Poland's attempts to create an absolute monarchy in Poland, and the beginning of the Russian Empire's increasing influence and control over the Commonwealth.

the whole idea that we had to have kings was a bad idea - Saxon dynasty in Poland was one huge mistake - and Leszczyński kingship was good - why they didn't come up with a president-like figure for government serving terms and not lifelong rule is beyond me? - many follies of our so called kings could have been avoided this way

That would be a too big provocation at the time. Remember, when the English beheaded their king in 1649, Cromwell and parliament took over for a few years but soon after he died they brought back monarchy. Old habits die hard! :):):):)

Americans gave an example much, much later.

1700 The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth was still a huge country



But neighbours were too powerful and they did what they wanted.

maybe you are right - but to me it is perfectly clear that our monarchs have lead to the disasters that befell Poland

No, monarchs were only an element of the whole system in which they were virtually powerless puppets, due to a series of legal acts bestowing most power to the nobility eg

The Privilege of Koszyce was a set of concessions made by Louis I of Hungary to the Polish szlachta in 1374. The privileges were granted in Kassa, Kingdom of Hungary (Polish: Koszyce; today: Košice, Slovakia). In exchange, one of Louis' daughters (Catherine, Mary or Jadwiga) was to ascend the throne of Poland after his death.

The szlachta obtained following privileges:
tribute release, with the exception of 2 groschen from one field and 4 groschen from monastic properties,
release of duty of building and repair castles, with the exception war,
offices only for Poles,
Szlachta for fight on the war got soldier's pay,
release of building towns and bridges,
release of support king's court when he was voyaging in the kingdom.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlachta%27s_privileges


Many sites in Poland bear the information: destroyed during Great Northern War.

E.g.,: The castle in Ogrodzieniec, burnt by Swedish troops in 1702, was never rebuilt.



We finished our historical musings on destruction in early 18 century. What`s next?

There was some destruction after partitions of Poland, especially during several Polish Risings when enemy soldiers plundered houses and properties.
But nothing as serious as almost total destruction which happened in 20 century.

there was a much damage done to Poland during partition, Poland property changed hands to non Polish like Jews, Polish population was discriminated against to open and modernized their business, basically Poland and Polish population was used as slaves with out any investments for 123 years.

So far we have only talked about the Polish-Swedish wars in 17 and 18th centuries. There are a lot more cases of destructive invasions.

This one is poorly remembered - the Czech invasion of Poland in 11th century. Chroniclers say it devastated the land quite thoroughly. Not only did Czechs under Duke of Bohemia Bretislav rob all treasures they were able to carry - they even stole the remains of St Adalbert from the Gniezno Cathedral and burnt down churches. Poles were captured and sent to Czechia as slave workers. Amazing brutality. The Polish kingdom was on the verge of complete collapse and annihilation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretislav_I