Those are insane population losses. Are they credible?
Yes, because that was the typical result of contemporary wars. Check out 30 Years` War which caused even greater destruction:
So great was the devastation brought about by the war that estimates put the reduction of population in the German states at about 25% to 40%.[53] Some regions were affected much more than others.[54] For example, Württemberg lost three-quarters of its population during the war.[55] In the territory of Brandenburg, the losses had amounted to half, while in some areas an estimated two-thirds of the population died.[56] The male population of the German states was reduced by almost half.[57] The population of the Czech lands declined by a third due to war, disease, famine and the expulsion of Protestant Czechs.[58][59] Much of the destruction of civilian lives and property was caused by the cruelty and greed of mercenary soldiers.[60] Villages were especially easy prey to the marauding armies. Those that survived, like the small village of Drais near Mainz, would take almost a hundred years to recover. The Swedish armies alone may have destroyed up to 2,000 castles, 18,000 villages and 1,500 towns in Germany, one-third of all German towns.[61]
As a Swede now living in Poland.... I'm sorry I had no idea.
Read another short article about it, with maps, by American historian: conflicts.rem33.com/images/Poland/Deluge.htm
Its introduction:
Despite the improbable survival of the commonwealth in the face of the potop, one of the most dramatic instances of the Poles' knack for prevailing in adversity, the episode inflicted irremediable damage and contributed heavily to the ultimate demise of the state. When Jan II Kaziemierz abdicated in 1668, the population of the commonwealth had been nearly halved by war and disease. War had destroyed the economic base of the cities and raised a religious fervor that ended Poland's policy of religious tolerance. Henceforth, the commonwealth would be on the strategic defensive facing hostile neighbors. Never again would Poland compete with Russia as a military equal.
actually it was our leadership that was responsible for wars with Sweden namely the Vasa dynasty who ruled Poland
Yes, royals on both sides had a bone to pick but it was mainly Polish and Lithuanian gentry who detrayed Poland and surrendered to Swedes in the initial phase of the conflict.
Two columns of Swedish troops made their way across Poland. The first one, under the command of Marshal Wittenberg, marched in the direction of Greater Poland, where on the 25th of July, 1655, the Polish nobles and magnates placed themselves under Swedish protection without a fight. The second column under the command of Pontus de la Gardie, occupied Lithuania, where also without a fight, on the 8th of September, the Lithuanian Prince, Janusz Radziwiłł, Grand Hetman of Lithuania, i.e. the Commander in Chief of the Polish forces in Lithuania, broke the Union with Poland and surrenderead the suzerainty of Lithuania to Carl Gustav, the Swedish King. The nobility of sequentially occupied lands also recognized the suzerainty of Carl Gustav, and even the Royal Polish troops of Hetman Koniecpolski followed suit. In September, again without a fight, Warsaw found itself in Swedish hands, and in October Krakow, defended by Czarniecki fell. The will to fight was absent among the nobility and this in great part decided the initial success of Carl Gustav's strategy.
It is honest to say that Poles can blame themselves.
Yes, royals on both sides had a bone to pick but it was mainly Polish and Lithuanian gentry who detrayed Poland and surrendered to Swedes in the initial phase of the conflict.
you forget about another deluge that was ongoin while the Swedes struck - it was the Polish-Russian war and the Russian troops went very far west (including Wilno) - and that's why Poland was devoid of defences
Or maybe rather their disloyal aristocracy, who would betray Poland again and again in the years to come.
Aristocracy and gentry in the Polish part of the Commonwealth were all Polish. Not Jewish, not Russian, not German, not fekking Martian. They were Polish.
and that's why Poland was devoid of defences
Wrong! Poland had an army which could put up initial resistance and save time to build up better defences.
Read about the Battle of Uscie where 14500 Polish troops surrendered to 17000 Swedes almost without fight.
Polish Army at Ujscie was just bunch of local nobles(mass movement), not regular forces(0 Winged Hussars, 0 "Pancerni", 0 Dragoons/Reitars, 0 professional infantry, 0 royal artillery). They were no match for Swedish professional veterans. All Polish regular units were engaged on the east in fights against Russians and Cossacs, besides Poland suffered massive loses in 1652 after Battle of Batoh when Cossacs slaughtered few thousands Polish prisoners(all were experienced soldiers, core of our army).
pawian: Poland had an army which could put up initial resistance and save time to build up better defences.
I cant agree with you, you underestimate psychological impact Swedish invasion had on morale of Polish population. Since XV century until 1655 not a single enemy soldier entered Polish mainlands! All wars were fought at borderlands - Pomerania, Prussia, Livonia, southern border, eastern border or at enemy territory. Most of this war were succesful for us. Now lets think about political and military position of Poland n 1655:
- all armies are on the east - civil war against cossacs and then against Russians lasts for 7 years. In 1654 Russia invaded Poland with army of ~100 000 soldiers. - Polish nobility had to to pay additional taxes for massive armies and serve in military - i mentioned Battle of Batoh 1652 and POW killing. Just three years before Swedish invasion, due to commanders failure Poland lost all best units, officer corps, experienced and well-trained soldiers.
I'm not suprised we couldnt fight back in 1655. However after Poland re-deployed its armies it took less than two years to drive Swedes back(despite Brandenburgia and Transilvania invasions in 1655 and1656), in 1657 Poland was even able to send expeditionary corps to aid Denmark in war against Sweden but still - Poland was ruined and depopulated.
But they could at least try at Uscie!!! Fekking cowards! Today I dislike all those nobility/gentry idiots for a good reason. They greatly contributed to Poland`s fall.
Aristocracy and gentry in the Polish part of the Commonwealth were all Polish. Not Jewish, not Russian, not German, not fekking Martian. They were Polish.
Aristocracy and gentry in the Polish part of the Commonwealth were all Polish. Not Jewish, not Russian, not German, not fekking Martian. They were Polish.
Right. But they weren't particularly loyal to their country, were they?
In fact, I'd much rather they had been Jewish, Russian or German, or Martian, as long as they were loyal to the Polish state.
Historically, there have been many Polish Jews, Polish Lithuanians or Polish Ukrainians, for example, who were also Polish patriots. And that's wonderful.
You should have started with the Mongol invasions Pawian. The 2nd Swedish invasion during the Northern War was almost just as destructive, from a political point of view even more so, because it meant that Poland became a Russian puppet afterwards.
I think we both agree that the Polish nobility was at fault.
Yes! Stinkers! :):):) Remind me of Scottish nobles who traded their country`s independence for titles and lands from British kings! Polish gentry in 1655 were also promised rewards for changing sides and dropping the Polish king.
My point was to stress that it was the nobility and not necessarily the populace at large.
Polish nobility was the pure representation of the Polish society. They were Poles and as such bring the blame on all Poles. You can`t excuse historical facts pointing at leaders. As if a Nazi German tried to excuse himself that he only carried out orders and that his Fuhrers are to blame. Come on.
You should have started with the Mongol invasions Pawian.
Hey, I could also easily start with German invasions in 11 century.
Come on, there must be some limit to this madness!!! :):):):)
The 2nd Swedish invasion during the Northern War was almost just as destructive, from a political point of view even more so, because it meant that Poland became a Russian puppet afterwards.
Yes! It is going to be my next historical contribution here. Be patient! We still haven`t finished with the first invasion!! :):):):)
