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Churchill and Poland


legend 3 | 664
11 Feb 2013 #31
How was Churchill made into a Hate figure in Poland and Stalin not?

Both Churchill and Stalin were scum.

America is a fantastic country

Wuhhaahahhaahahah. Good one.
pawian 163 | 10,429
11 Feb 2013 #32
? We didn't "get" Greece.?

Don`t be silly and consult the books. If you don`t possess them, try Wikipedia. The British, by Churchill`s order, executed hundreds of communist partisans in Greece in 1944/45 and Stalin closed an eye because he realised Greece was out of his reach.
OP citizen67 6 | 191
11 Feb 2013 #33
Yes, but it was him who made a pact with Lucifer to defeat Satan. Or vice versa. :):):):)

Pact with Stalin? What Pact? Stalin was Hitler's biggest Allie until Hitler attacked the "Soviet Union", they had a Pact, and it was to divide Poland and the rest of Europe between them. Hitler gave half of Poland to Stalin.
pawian 163 | 10,429
11 Feb 2013 #34
Pact with Stalin? What Pact?

Please, don`t distort my words. I said: pact! :):):)

Yes, but later Churchill replaced Hitler and became Stalin`s greatest ally. How simple. :):):)
OP citizen67 6 | 191
11 Feb 2013 #35
Both Churchill and Stalin were scum.

Please explain why?
legend 3 | 664
12 Feb 2013 #36
Churchill sold out Poland,
Stalin killed millions.
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #37
Yes, but later Churchill replaced Hitler and became Stalin`s greatest ally. How simple. :):):)

That's stupid, Churchill never became Stalin's greatest ally, Churchill never had a Pact with Stalin, Stalin was just a partner-of-convenience, our allies wer the USA and other people from conquered nations willing to fight, our island was a unsinkable aircraft carrier and base.
pawian 163 | 10,429
12 Feb 2013 #38
Sorry, Sir, you are mistaken. Never mind, it was nice talking to you. :):):)
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #39
Churchill sold out Poland,

How?

so all you hav is myths, legends and whispers.

anyway from the hated wikipedia;

"At the time, the Red Army had occupied and held much of Eastern Europe with a military three times greater than Allied forces in the West.."

here's the link, it takes about 2 minutes to read.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference

"Churchill alone pushed for free elections in Poland.[9] The British leader pointed out that the U.K. "could never be content with any solution that did not leave Poland a free and independent state". Stalin pledged to permit free elections in Poland, but forestalled ever honoring his promise."
jasondmzk
12 Feb 2013 #40
Before you good people get too involved in a tete-a-tete with Citizen67, you should know this is the LEAST offensive thing he had to say in another thread, and it's pertinent, because if you are discussing matters of morality and integrity, so this very much speaks to character:

I hope you don't hav your little girls being raped and abused

You think a person of this caliber is capable of serious historical debate? Shame on you.
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #41
"Churchill alone pushed for free elections in Poland.[9] The British leader pointed out that the U.K. "could never be content with any solution that did not leave Poland a free and independent state". Stalin pledged to permit free elections in Poland, but forestalled ever honoring his promise."

morality and integrity

Lol. Great words.
I was saying I hoped that Poland wouldn't end up like Britain, silly boy.
legend 3 | 664
12 Feb 2013 #42
Citizen is right in that paragraph, nothing to be shamed about. But it is offtopic.

"Churchill alone pushed for free elections in Poland.[9] The British leader pointed out that the U.K. "could never be content with any solution that did not leave Poland a free and independent state". Stalin pledged to permit free elections in Poland, but forestalled ever honoring his promise."

His actions say otherwise.
MarcinD 4 | 135
12 Feb 2013 #44
otherwise we would all be ruled either by Communist Russia or the Nazis.

You just ruined your troll.

Poland......was ruled by Communist Russia. So in essence you are arguing that Churchill's appeasement towards Stalin (for many reasons like UK being in war shambles) spared England and yourself.

History regards Churchill in this circumstance as a liar or a fool. You choose.
Wroclaw Boy
12 Feb 2013 #45
our allies wer the USA and other people from conquered nations willing to fight, our island was a unsinkable aircraft carrier and base.

Ohh hes one of them.

Its beyond me why anybody is even discussing with this moron, even debating with him is pointless.
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #46
You just ruined your troll. Poland......was ruled by Communist Russia.

What appeasement? What appeasement? What appeasement? Stalin already ruled Poland. Churchill wanted to fight the Communist Russian Empire, it was Roosevelt who didn't want to, but remember Allied forces wer out-numbered 3 to 1 and no-one in the West knew how evil Stalin was, Britain was exhausted and broke without the Americans, couldn't do anything.

History lessons in the Communist time wer just pure propaganda indoctrination tools, also the Communist started and feed a rumour-mill and built up a hatred, a blame of Churchill to deflect attention away from themselves, they wanted you to hate him, and they succeeded, you are just repeating rumour 24 years after the Fall of communism.
MarcinD 4 | 135
12 Feb 2013 #48
What appeasement? What appeasement? What appeasement? Stalin already ruled Poland

So where do you stand on this circus? /wiki/Percentages_agreement

or better yet. Just have fun with this one. But be patient, it's very long......alot of betrayal you know. /wiki/Western_betrayal

"Churchill defended his actions in a three-day Parliamentary debate starting 27 February 1945, which ended in a vote of confidence. During the debate, many MPs openly criticised Churchill and passionately voiced loyalty to Britain's Polish allies and expressed deep reservations about Yalta.[32] Moreover, 25 of these MPs risked their careers to draft an amendment protesting against Britain's tacit acceptance of Poland's domination by the Soviet Union. These members included: Arthur Greenwood; Sir Alec Douglas-Home; Commander Archibald Southby; the Earl of Ancaster and Victor Raikes.[32] After the failure of the amendment, Henry Strauss, the Member of Parliament for Norwich, resigned his seat in protest at the British treatment of Poland.[32]"
jon357 63 | 14,282
12 Feb 2013 #49
All that blather entirely disproves your 'point'. Churchill was outnumbered in Yalta - your bitterness should be in the direction of the USA, who refused to support Churchill over Stalin.
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #50
Wuhhaahahhaahahah. Good one.

America is one of the Best countries in the world, not perfect, but has played a positiv role in the world, and has been a force for good.

Russian and the Communist hav held us all back, wasted a whole century with their non-sense and Imperialist ambitions. Think how beautiful it would be if we didn't hav communism, that a wasted century, how far ahead we would be and the rest of the World would be. Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe would be free and democratic and wealthy since 1945, no Mao, no culture Revolution, No Enver Hoxha, no Ceausescu, no Pol Pot, not Kim Il Song, no Korean War, no millions starving to Death, no Holodor, Russia finance proxy bloody violent Wars all over the Globe, invaded half of Europe added it to the third they ruled already, Russia murdered and exiled huge swathes of the conquered countries particular their intelligentsia, taking all their talent and crippling their countries, Russia contributed nothing to the development of the World.

All that blather entirely disproves your 'point'. Churchill was outnumbered in Yalta - your bitterness should be in the direction of the USA, who refused to support Churchill over Stalin.

No, my bitterness is for Stalin and the people who support him and talk crap. Stalin was one of the most evil men in History, he was Poland's torturer!
smurf 39 | 1,981
12 Feb 2013 #51
Stalin was one of the most evil men in History, he was Poland's torturer!

Who was gifted Poland on a plate thanks to Mrrs. Churchill & Roosevelt.

'Merika might be a 'great' country, but you are not a great 'merikan. You're quite the mean young man. Anger issues it looks like, maybe daddy didn'y hug you enough as a child. A lot of 'merikan anger steams from males being unable to express themselves, except in war that is of course. That and the love of their women for hamburgers.
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #52
From that link you posted:

a bit of a bad choice on your part:

"The concept is by no means universally accepted."

"...states that Churchill urged Roosevelt to continue armed conflict in Europe in 1945 - but carried out against the Soviet Union, to prevent the USSR from extending its control west of its own borders.[5] Roosevelt apparently trusted Stalin's assurances, and he was unwilling to support Churchill in ensuring the liberation of all of Central and Eastern Europe west of the USSR. Without American backing, the United Kingdom, with its strength exhausted by six years of war, was unable to take any military actions in that part of Europe."

"...the Major Allies against Nazi Germany had agreed to secure democratic processes for the countries that would be liberated from Nazi rule, such as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, and Albania."

"Warsaw Uprising

Despite the fact that Polish and later Royal Air Force (RAF) planes flew missions over Warsaw dropping supplies from 4 August on, the United States Air Force (USAF) planes did not join the operation. The Allies specifically requested the use of Red Army airfields near Warsaw on 20 August but were refused by Stalin on 22 August (he referred to the insurgents as 'a handful of criminals'). After Stalin's objections to support for the uprising, Churchill telegrammed Roosevelt on 25 August and proposed sending planes in defiance of Stalin and to "see what happens". Roosevelt replied on 26 August that "I do not consider it advantageous to the long-range general war prospect for me to join you in the proposed message to Uncle Joe."[28] The commander of the British air drop, Air Marshal Sir John Slessor, later stated, "How, after the fall of Warsaw, any responsible statesman could trust the Russian Communist further than he could kick him, passes the comprehension of ordinary men."

"Western Betrayal" as a myth

"This "preoccupation with their historical sense of 'damaged self' has fueled resentment" towards the west generally and reinforced the western betrayal concept in particular, according to Ilya Prize.."

Who was gifted Poland on a plate thanks to Mrrs. Churchill & Roosevelt.

I'm not 'Merikan, young lady.
smurf 39 | 1,981
12 Feb 2013 #53
I'm not 'Merikan, young lady.

Yea, that's right. *rolls eyes

Showing again that you cannot read.
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #54
Who was gifted Poland on a plate thanks to Mrrs. Churchill & Roosevelt.

He was gifted it thanks to Herr Hitler.

What did you want the British to do?
Barney 14 | 1,469
12 Feb 2013 #55
What appeasement? What appeasement? What appeasement?

The British Government headed by Churchill knew very well the nature of Stalin, Churchill had made a career partly from demonising any progressive thought. Uncensored Cabinet papers reveal that Churchill together with Roosevelt had indeed "sold" Poland accusations of naivety wont stick. Churchill was more concerned with Ghandi and preventing Indian freedom than of confronting Stalin.

The British narrative of the 2nd war is BEF, dunkirque, BOB, fall of Singapore, the Chindits, el Alaimain, d day, market garden, victory, oh and some stuff with U Boats.

One wouldn’t want to diminish these events or the people who participated in them however the war was largely fought somewhere else and Churchill was desperate to have either the US or the USSR on his side.
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #56
The British narrative of the 2nd war is BEF, dunkirque, BOB, fall of Singapore, the Chindits, el Alaimain, d day, market garden, victory, oh and some stuff with U Boats.

Every country has a similar their own country-centric version of the events of WWII.

and Luckily for everybody, the Axis Powers made some stupid decisions. Britain didn't make Germany attack their erstwhile Allie, Stalin and the "Soviet Union" or make Japan attack America and then for the Germans to then, for no reason, declare that they wer at War with America as well. Britain was all alone for a few years, any Allie would be grateful welcomed.
jon357 63 | 14,282
12 Feb 2013 #57
No, my bitterness is for Stalin and the people who support him and talk crap. Stalin was one of the most evil men in History, he was Poland's torturer!

This is very true

Are you even Polish? Why are you here? Member for under 1 year?

Why are you here on an English language forum? Member, by the way, pretty well since it started.

"The concept is by no means universally accepted."

It is not generally accepted at all except for people with either an axe to grind, a skewed interpretation of history or more usually both.

dunkirque

You mean Dunkirk, in English.

the war was largely fought somewhere else

It was fought in every home which has a son, husband, brother or father conscripted into the army and in every air raid shelter during the blitz.
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #58
Me? What do I want Britain to do?

all off topic and deliberately so, I think. What would like Britain to hav done, re: the WWII?
Barney 14 | 1,469
12 Feb 2013 #59
It was fought in every home which has a son, husband, brother or father conscripted into the army and in every air raid shelter during the blitz.

I hoped that one could see I wasnt trying to have a bash at Britain or the things the British went through.

It is true that the war was fought in the Soviet Union and neighbouring countries the figures for Leningrad alone dwarf all the allied numbers. It’s also true that the second front was deliberately delayed but the Soviets won inspite of this. The appeasement of Stalin was the only thing that Churchill could do to preserve what was left of the Empire that appeasement involved selling Poland out.

What would like Britain to hav done, re: the WWII?

Apart from hide on their island till the Russians won the war for them*

You mean Dunkirk, in English

No I meant badly spelled French:)

*Now that is a pop at the Brits
jon357 63 | 14,282
12 Feb 2013 #60
I hoped that one could see I wasnt trying to have a bash at Britain or the things the British went through.

Certainly.

At that time they had long been debating how to get rid of the Empire - it's true though that there was nothing at all Churchill could have done to change the way it turned out.

It's ally, no Allie, Allie is some chap from Edinburgh.

You know him too?


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