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Churchill and Poland


OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #61
It is true that the war was fought in the Soviet Union and neighbouring countries the figures for Leningrad alone dwarf all the allied numbers.

The high figures for the Soviet Empire was down to the incompetence of Stalin, who was an idiot. He decimated his Military Leadership just before the War, put only his weakest defences against their new joint border with Nazi Germany, refused to believ, when warned by a dozen different sources, that Hitler was about to attack the Soviet Empire, he admired and looked up to Hitler, worshiped him, based his own purges on Hitler's, and he froze like a rabbit when Hitler attack the him, and went into hiding. He was reckless with his population and numbers, it didn't matter how many of his people died, as long as he won. He was a brutal, ruthless leader, who murdered a lot more of his own people than Hitler did. He saw the War as an opportunity to expand his Empire, and was casually watching as Hitler and the Democracies fought it out, hoping to move in when the War had ended and beat the weakened victor. He wanted back the old borders of the old Imperial Empire, including Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, (most of which he got), he wanted to punish those Poles for defeating him in an earlier expedition to Poland, He had already got back Ukraine and Georgia and was making their life a misery deliberately creating famine to starve the population into submission, known as Holodomor. He bullied Finland into giving up territory, in Karelia. He had incorporated Mongolian into his Empire. He was one of the greatest imperialists of all time, one of the most brutal vile Dictators in History.

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuanian and the eastern part of Poland wer invaded and incorporated in the Soviet Empire as part of a deal with Hitler, his friend. Nothing to do with Churchill.

...It’s also true that the second front was deliberately delayed but the Soviets won inspite of this. The appeasement of Stalin was the only thing that Churchill could do to preserve what was left of the Empire that appeasement involved selling Poland out.

He was an Ally of Hitler until Hitler attacked him, he is the one that delayed a "Second Front". Britain was being bombed nightly and was already fighting in North Africa, Syria and Iraq.
Radders 3 | 47
12 Feb 2013 #62
The appeasement of Stalin was the only thing that Churchill could do to preserve what was left of the Empire

1. Churchill had already been blackmailed by Roosevelt at Quebec II, when he was threatened that unless he accepted both the Morgenthau Plan and the outline post-war partitioning, then the US would cut off all aid to Britain on VE day

2. The threat to the British Empire came not from Stalin but from Roosevelt; it was US policy to dismantle the Empire after the war, and one that Truman wholeheartedly subscribed to

3. By the time of Yalta, Germany was defeated; the Red Army had just advanced 300 miles and was within 40 miles of Berlin. The occupation of Eastern Europe was de facto

4. It is simply naive to imagine that ANY victor could have left an independent Poland sandwiched between occupied Germany and the Ukraine, with the Baltic states to the North, former East Prussia, Hungary and Czechslovakia all within the Iron Curtain. Poland's post-war fate was decided at Stalingrad.

Roosevelt's stupidity, poor judgement and naivity in trusting Stalin, and his use of the economic cudgel to bring Churchill into line, perhaps made things worse than they need have been, but once the Red Army was within sight of the Elbe Poland's fate was sealed.

Oh yes, and the dates of the wars are different for the Septics* than for the Europeans; WWI was 1917-1918 and WWII was 1941-1946 for the US.

(English rhyming slang; septics = septic tanks)
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #63
I have no opinion on WWII other than Hitler was a cúnt and Russia won the war in Europe,

Russia started the War in Europe, along with their ally, Hitler.

have, have, have, why do you always leave out the 'e'& you don't say 'the' in front of WWII, it's either The Second World War or World War II.

irrelevant, but you obviously don't know that many people in England would like to reform the spelling of English words to make them mor lojical and faithful to alfabetical rules, leav-ing out the last unnecessary "e" off my words is deliberate.

I can't be bothered to write , "The Second World War", the WWII will do.

It's ally, no Allie, Allie is some chap from Edinburgh.

This is an example of the anomalies of Inglish spelling. The last 3 letters are pronounced Lie.

Hmmm.....seems Stalin and Churchill had more in common than I initially thought, thanks Cit

He had nothing in common with Stalin.
Barney 15 | 1,472
12 Feb 2013 #64
He had nothing in common with Stalin.

They both loved Empire.
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #65
I think one was a sentimental attitude
the other was Genghis Khan with a Telephone.
Tim Bucknall 7 | 98
12 Feb 2013 #66
as far as i've read, by the time Churchill arrived at any meetings Roosevelt & Uncle Joe had already arranged anything and Churchill was told to stop making trouble

Churchills "trouble making" couldn't be allowed to disrupt the plans for the UN that Roosevelt had arranged with that nice trustworth mr Stalin!

the 2 rising powers were in charge by '43 and the old declining power (and our Polish allies) was/were losing influence, Roosevelts hatred of British imperialism was such that he allowed himself to be deluded by Stalin
Barney 15 | 1,472
12 Feb 2013 #67
I think one was a sentimental attitude

Nothing sentimental about Churchill, the man always adopted the most extreme populist position possible.

The Empire had been running at a loss for about 25 years by the mid 40s The British needed to realign their economy but blamed Ghandi for the unrest in India and subsequent economic woes.

There is nothing sentimental about denying freedom to a people.
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #68
I don't know if we are allowed to post images but ...

The military situation at the end of the conference.

map

The War was nearly over.

Nothing sentimental about Churchill, the man always adopted the most extreme populist position possible. The Empire had been running at a loss for about 25 years by the mid 40s The British needed to realign their economy but blamed Ghandi for the unrest in India and subsequent economic woes.There is nothing sentimental about denying freedom to a people.

I was comparing him to Stalin, who these people seem to worship.

The Empire was costing more money to run, than it was making in money, it wasn't even paying for it self, mentally, most people had already given up Empire, and the authorities wer had already been relinquishing control.
smurf 39 | 1,981
12 Feb 2013 #69
who these people seem to worship.

What are you talking about?
Not one single poster has defended Stalin.

authorities wer had already

For the love of God learn to speak your own language!! (^_^)
Barney 15 | 1,472
12 Feb 2013 #70
The War was nearly over.

And what is your point?

Churchill said in cabinet

'Stalin I'm sure means well to the world and Poland. Stalin has offered the Polish people a free and more broadly based government to bring about an election;

Churchill knew full well this was not the case because he added

I cannot conceive any government has the right to be treated like that.

Its clear that Churchill sold Poland out but as I said earlier there is not much he could have done.

Both quotes from "Masters and Commanders" by Andrew Roberts as reported.

The quotes are from Burgis a note taker at churchill's meetings who prepared cabinet papers his notes are in the national archives.

Edit

I was comparing him to Stalin, who these people seem to worship.

The only people who seem to like stalin are far left nuts in what was LM and North Koreans.

The Empire was costing more money to run, than it was making in money, it wasn't even paying for it self,

Yeah I said that

mentally, most people had already given up Empire

Nonsense...Empire day, Empire Games, colonial wars some stuff still going through the British courts.

Man you dont really know what you are talking about and we have only scratched the surface.
Tim Bucknall 7 | 98
12 Feb 2013 #71
Churchill said in cabinet 'Stalin I’m sure means well to the world and Poland. Stalin has offered the Polish people a free and more broadly based government to bring about an election;

he said that in public a lot precisely BECAUSE he knew Stalin would break his promise, he wanted the world to see what Stalin was like

he also wanted to offer no excuse or provocation that Stalin could blame for breaking his promise

there was also the problem that after 1941 the UK Gov had to persuade the population here that the USSR was an Ally , and it would be hard to suddenly contradict that

also Churchills cabinet was a coalition featuring Pro- Soviet Labour politicians and he had to try to keep the cabinet unified

oddy the CIA & British intelligence funded the UPA after the war- yup the butchers of Volhynia received western money in 1945-47!
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #72
And what is your point?

Fait acompli

The only people who seem to like stalin are far left nuts in what was LM and North Koreans.

There is grudging admiration and secret veneration of Stalin in many ex-Communist countries where he was seen as a "Tough Man", Poland must be a fúcked up country, where Churchill is denigrated, and Stalin is admired and considered a "Good Guy".

Yeah I said tha

So? Most Poles don't know that.

Nonsense...Empire day, Empire Games,...

Victorian inventions for little children. People in Britain had already accepted that the countries of the Empire wanted to go their own way.

Ghandi in England 1931
Barney 15 | 1,472
12 Feb 2013 #73
secret veneration of Stalin

You have not provided one shred of evidence for your silly claim and now you are into the fantasy world of conspiracy
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #74
Poles blame Churchill for their plight after 1945 and lack of Freedom, not STALIN!

reuters.com/article/2010/03/05/us-russia-stalin-idUSTRE6241M820100305

August 11, 2007: The government is issuing new high school history books that downplay the mass murders (over 25 million dead) carried out during the quarter century that Josef Stalin ran the country.

youtube.com/watch?v=hNgFXuaE0Tk

2 second search, and that ain't nothing I saw photos in taxi cars, and was told many times he was a good man, a strong man.
Paulina 9 | 1,448
12 Feb 2013 #75
Poland must be a fúcked up country, where Churchill is denigrated, and Stalin is admired and considered a "Good Guy".

I've just entered The Twilight Zone... O_O
I must be in that weird part of the internet...
I got to get out... got to get out... :O

2 second search, and that ain't nothing I saw photos in taxi cars, and was told many times he was a good man, a strong man.

Dude, are you delusional? Or maybe you've eaten some weird mushrooms? This is Polish Forums, not Russian Forums! o_O
And get a life, for ffs lol
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #76
I said, "former communist countries", Stalin is worshiped in, mostly Russia, and Georgia, I understand.

Are you saying that Churchill ISN'T denigrated in Poland. He's been turned into a Hate-Figure by the old Communists.
Paulina 9 | 1,448
12 Feb 2013 #77
I said, "former communist countries", Stalin is worshiped in, mostly Russia, and Georgia, I understand.

You wrote:

Poland must be a fúcked up country, where Churchill is denigrated, and Stalin is admired and considered a "Good Guy".

OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #78
Yes, and you quoted my quote, which was about Russia.

Who do consider to be the more reviled person in Poland to be; Stalin or Churchill?

Who do you hate?
Barney 15 | 1,472
12 Feb 2013 #79
Who do you hate?

What a lovely question
Paulina 9 | 1,448
12 Feb 2013 #81
Yes,

And why on Earth would you write that in Poland 'Stalin is admired and considered a "Good Guy"'? Can you explain to me this idiotic statement of yours?

and you quoted my quote, which was about Russia.

Aaaand what Russia has to do with Poland as far as attitude towards Stalin is concerned?
(The answer is: zip, nada... nothing! lol)

Who do consider to be the more reviled person in Poland to be; Stalin or Churchill?

What does "reviled" mean?

Who do you hate?

I don't hate anyone.
As far as assessment of historical figures by Poles is concerned - even putting Stalin and Churchill in one sentence is laughable and shows that you either have no idea about Polish history and Polish views or there's something wrong with your head.

Let's just say that this song have nothing to do with Churchill:
youtube.com/watch?v=y5kmuMf7ki4
You get my drift? lol
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #82
And why on Earth would you write that in Poland 'Stalin is admired and considered a "Good Guy"'? Can you explain to me this idiotic statement of yours?

can you explain why Churchill is hated?

What does "reviled" mean?

Hated, loathed, held with contempt.

As far as assessment of historical figures by Poles is concerned - even putting Stalin and Churchill in one sentence is laughable and shows that you either have no idea about Polish history and Polish views or there's something wrong with your head.Let's just say that this song have nothing to do with Churchill:

I hav experienced nothing, but hatred of Churchill, and the British on this forum, since I came here. Churchill seems to used to used to justify every piece of bad behaviour and benefit-claiming by Poles, not only on here, but on other forums as well. I would like to know what Churchill did?
Marek11111 9 | 816
12 Feb 2013 #83
Poland was used during ww2 to destroy Germany economy to create Anglo-Saxon dominance of world, did you know that Hitler central bank was independent and issue money without debt.
Paulina 9 | 1,448
12 Feb 2013 #84
can you explain why Churchill is hated?

He is not lol

Hated, loathed, held with contempt.

Stalin then.

I hav experienced nothing, but hatred of Churchill, and the British on this forum, since I came here. Churchill seems to used to used to justify every piece of bad behaviour and benefit-claiming by Poles, not only on here, but on other forums as well.

Dude, I don't know what other forums you have in mind but this forum has as much to do with Poland and Poles as cybersex has with the real thing lol

There are very few Poles on this forum and even fewer are those who actually were born and live in Poland. Basing your views about what Poles in general think on something you've read on some forums on the internet is simply silly.

And I honestly don't know who according to you hates Churchill and the British on this forum. Could you name those Poles?

I would like to know what Churchill did?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #85
Poland was used during ww2 to destroy Germany economy to create Anglo-Saxon dominance of world, did you know that Hitler central bank was independent and issue money without debt.

See what I mean? stupid comments like that all the time.
Paulina 9 | 1,448
12 Feb 2013 #86
All the time? Are you kidding? This "Marek11111" is as Twilight Zone-ish as you are lol Even on the internet such weirdos are rare. I've never seen such a view as his on the Polish internet. And he lives in Stanwood, Washington, USA. No comment lol

You both should get a life, pronto ;/
crochetbitch88 2 | 83
12 Feb 2013 #87
I hav experienced nothing, but hatred of Churchill, and the British on this forum, since I came here.

you're such a softie, citizen67, if you think what you read on this forum is hatred for the British, there's much more hatred for the Polish on here and we don't cry, do we? And you think people in Poland hate Churchill? Seriously, they don't care about him enough to hate him. Just relax a bit and tame your imperial sense of self-importance
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #88
dude, you gave me a link to a Yalta comment. you believ him to hav "sold-out" Poland. This whole thread is full anti-Churchill rhetoric, accusing him of all sorts of things.

[************************** such a softie, citizen67, if you think what you read on this forum is hatred for the British, there's much more hatred for the Polish on here and we don't cry, do we? And you think people in Poland hate Churchill? Seriously, they don't care about him enough to hate him. Just relax a bit and tame your imperial sense of self-importance[/quote]

don't cry? You come across as the most whining, wimpish people going, like big babies, who blame everything on everybody else and accept responsibilities and won't admit when they hav done something wrong. Denial seems to be the Polish way.

It is Polish people who hav a Imperious, snooty, snobbish, pompous way.
Paulina 9 | 1,448
12 Feb 2013 #89
dude, you gave me a link to a Yalta comment.

Who are you addressing?

you believ him to hav "sold-out" Poland.

You wrote yourself:
"Every country has a similar their own country-centric version of the events of WWII."

Something that was good for Britain, could be at the same time bad for Poland.
Poles don't have a duty to praise Churchill for absolutely everything he did.
Some of his decisions can be seen as controversial.
Like this one for example:

winstonchurchill.org/learn/in-the-media/churchill-in-the-news/889-churchills-deadly-decision-destroying-the-french-fleet

Churchill's Deadly Decision reveals the darkest side of Britain's Finest Hour. Some call his decision a turning point in the war, others call it a terrible betrayal and a war crime. This is the story of what Churchill did next, and why; and how 1,300 French sailors died as a result in what the French still call 'our Pearl Harbour'. In the words of French survivors, some of whom still regard Churchill as a war criminal, and one of the British sailors who opened fire on his former allies, this is the forgotten story of Churchill's deadliest decision - to sink the French Fleet.

This whole thread is full anti-Churchill rhetoric, accusing him of all sorts of things.

Could you point to those anti-Churchill posts accusing him of all sorts of things?
OP citizen67 6 | 191
12 Feb 2013 #90
Who are you addressing?

You, Pauline, that twat got in between our posts.

You wrote yourself:"Every country has a similar their own country-centric version of the events of WWII."Something that was good for Britain, could be at the same time bad for Poland.Poles don't have a duty to praise Churchill for absolutely everything he did.Some of his decisions can be seen as controversial.

Don't you think you hav been had, the Communists hav firmly indoctrinated you Poles. It must take great deal of effort to think Churchill as an enemy of Poland.


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