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Piłsudski, like Hitler and Stalin (according to some Lithuanians)


Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Mar 2010 #31
It's a tough call with Ukraine as they are neither in the EU, nor NATO. Plus, the true face of their new PM remains to be seen.

As for Piłsudski, he shouldn't be uttered in the same breath as Hitler and Stalin.
Borrka 37 | 594
28 Mar 2010 #32
Seanus: As for Piłsudski, he shouldn't be uttered in the same breath as Hitler and Stalin.

Portraiting Pilsudski as a monster was an important part of the infamous Soviet propaganda.
Somehow easy to understand - the old marshal was the only one who broke the myth of the invincible Red Army.
Some of the new post-Soviet republics where history books portrait Pilsudski as an enemy of the state, are just following example of the big Russian mommy lol.

In fact he was neither devil nor saint.
He is Polish national hero and has never pretended to act on behave of Ukrainian or Lithuanian irredenta but at least he protected the Baltics and Western Ukraine from becoming Soviet controlled gulags.
Ironside 49 | 10,452
28 Mar 2010 #33
"To dzieło chorego człowieka."
pil

Lithuanian nowadays are sick ******* and ultra-nationalistic and many Nazis there - there marches in the Nazi uniforms and nobody care about it!
...

notice who put it on the you tube and notice the language - Prūsijos Lietuvos valdytojų.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Mar 2010 #34
I didn't see any in Vilnius or Kaunas, Ironside. That's not to say that they don't exist but they are likely very much in the minority. Nazi marches????
Ironside 49 | 10,452
28 Mar 2010 #35
yes they dress themselves and off they go with Nazi symbols and uniforms :)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Mar 2010 #36
I've heard that there are quite a few of those types in Poland too ;) It was on the Ewa Dryzga show :)
Ironside 49 | 10,452
28 Mar 2010 #37
maybe, but in Poland there is few of those types and nobody is taking it seriously, in Lithuania there is a few of those types and they seems to be accepted by the people !
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Mar 2010 #38
Maybe they should be taking it seriously? 9/11 seems to have been an inside job ;) ;)

I think the Africans who have been attacked are taking it seriously.
Ironside 49 | 10,452
28 Mar 2010 #39
there two separated issues:
* Nazi like organization few and far between, they are loons :) and their will never gain a ounce of real support!
* Some people in Poland don't like people of colour, and some will act on this ....but sometimes is only a pretext, as could be anything really!

and last but not least there is law which should punish any behaviour like assault seriously but it doesn't ....hence plenty of morons at large .....plus some things but in different thread maybe
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Mar 2010 #40
Can't you apply the same logic to Lithuanians?
Ironside 49 | 10,452
28 Mar 2010 #41
Oh! but I'm talking after a very good source - at first I thought that is only few loons like in Poland but learned otherwise !

are you taking me for someone talking out off his ass ? I'm offended :D
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Mar 2010 #42
Not at all, I don't presume anything or pass judgement. I just want to see the same standards applied. We all have 'very good sources' in our own perception, but are they?

Anyway, aren't they entitled to a little rebellion given their history?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
28 Mar 2010 #43
Borrka: he protected

Stalin and Hitler also "protected". Nobody needs that kind of protection with eventual speculation what would have been better or worse.
Btw, Borrka, in schools, at least mine, there was not a single negative word about Pilsudski. As a matter of fact, I have never heard of him in school, forget about some propoganda against him. But it is natural for any country who regained its independance to not particularly discern who did what and to what level. He led the army on Vilnius and it is sufficient to be on the family photo. Foreign land-grabber as others. And if you take into consideration policies of Polonization and Sanation, which haven't passed by Lithuania, if I am not mistaken, then what suprise here? Many like to count bodies for atrocity. No, there are many other things that can be more barbaric than destroying bodies. Why do you protest in Lithuania, if nobody is killing you?
Torq 32 | 2,897
28 Mar 2010 #44
Seanus: It's a tough call with Ukraine as they are neither in the EU, nor NATO.

That's why it is essential for Poland and should be one of the main aims of Polish
foreign politics, to make it easier for Ukraine to join EU and NATO, to convince
them that they should or even drag them by the ears to NATO and the Union
if necessary. It is vital for Poland that Russia never regains it's superpower,
imperial position and they can never achieve that without controlling Ukraine.

Ironside: Lithuanian nowadays are sick ******* and ultra-nationalistic and many Nazis there

Let's not generalize too much, Iron. Their independence is fresh and they are a little
bit drunk with it, so to say, but let's not judge them too harshly. They are a historical
part of Rzeczpospolita and they will one day find their way home to Poland (metaphorically
speaking).

Nathan: He led the army on Vilnius

To be precise - the army was led on Wilno by general Żeligowski, who pretended
to rebel against Piłsudski (but was in fact following his secret orders). I am inclined
to agree that it was a mistake from political and historical point of view, but in a way
I also understand Piłsudski seeing what Wilno has meant for Poland throughout centuries.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Mar 2010 #45
I know you didn't mean it that way, amigo, but that just came across as selfish. You want them to join the EU and NATO not for their own interests but for yours. Joining NATO would destabilise their country.

However, I know that Poles look largely for security but there are other ways of doing it.
Torq 32 | 2,897
28 Mar 2010 #46
Seanus: I know you didn't mean it that way, amigo, but that just came across as selfish.

That's exactly how I meant it.

Seanus: You want them to join the EU and NATO not for their own interests but for yours.

Yes.

Seanus: Joining NATO would destabilise their country.

On the contrary - in the long run, joining the EU with its common policy,
administrative, economic and legislative standards will make Ukraine a stable
and powerful country - considering their potential, maybe even richer and more
powerful than Poland.

EDIT: I'm not even considering Ukraine joining NATO without
joining EU - they need to join both organisations.
OP Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,661
28 Mar 2010 #47
Seanus: I know you didn't mean it that way, amigo, but that just came across as selfish. You want them to join the EU and NATO not for their own interests but for yours. Joining NATO would destabilise their country.

However, I know that Poles look largely for security but there are other ways of doing it.

It's the Polish political goal, as it serves Poland well. It's not a angel's meeting or something :)
+ it would most possibly only go as Ukrainians would see it as their political goal to do it too. Unless some chaos comes up and Poland forcefully puts Ukraine into NATO/EU, which I hope never happens.

Although having those countries between Poland&Russia staying Neutral is quite dangerous, that's why steps like having an very small force which co-operates will lead to pro-Polish sentiments. (hopefully)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Mar 2010 #48
Aha, ok. Sometimes you have to be, especially in international relations :)

Well, it is a push and pull contest with Russia. Best get a clear position before 2017 ;)

What makes you think that Russia wouldn't impose embargos and thwart Ukraine's attempts to enrich itself? I can see them trying to stymie Ukraine as punishment for joining the EU. Just think of gas contracts!

Ukraine richer than Poland? Hmm...I don't think so, Torqy. What makes you so sure that the a future crisis wouldn't hit them hard? Poland is further down the inward investment road than Ukraine. They are playing a very long catch up game.
Torq 32 | 2,897
28 Mar 2010 #49
Seanus: What makes you think that Russia wouldn't impose embargos and thwart Ukraine's attempts to enrich itself? I can see them trying to stymie Ukraine as punishment for joining the EU. Just think of gas contracts!

You have to realise that if Russia imposed any kind of embargo now - they would
be dealing with Ukraine only. If Ukraine was a part of EU, Russia would risk a conflict
with the entire Union and I don't think they are in a position to do that.

Seanus: Ukraine richer than Poland? Hmm...I don't think so, Torqy. What makes you so sure that the a future crisis wouldn't hit them hard? Poland is further down the inward investment road than Ukraine. They are playing a very long catch up game.

As a member of EU, with common standards in all economic and administrative areas
applied and corruption significantly decreased, Ukraine would be in a much better position
to build its wealth and power. Of course - it's a very long catch up game but not a mission
impossible.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Mar 2010 #50
I realise that, Torq. However, Russia are prepared to stick to principles as they see them. Putin was convinced that he did no wrong in the last gas crisis and even crippled Serbia, a staunch ally (in theory anyway). They will take on Europe, if only to a certain extent.

Maybe but they are in a transitional phase with their new PM. Some regimes struggle badly in times of changes, e.g Hungary's regime change from communism to capitalism. Do you feel that corruption in Poland has been lowered by accession to the EU? If so, how?

Common standards don't always work well in practice. Just look at the CAP.
Torq 32 | 2,897
28 Mar 2010 #51
Seanus: I realise that, Torq. However, Russia are prepared to stick to principles as they see them.

The Union has over 500 million population and generates an estimated 30% share
of the nominal gross world product. Russia is a dwarf compared to the EU and they
should consider it very carefully before "sticking to their principles".

Seanus: They will take on Europe

Well, good luck to them and may God help them if they ever do :-)

Seanus: Maybe but they are in a transitional phase with their new PM. Some regimes struggle badly in times of changes

It is essential for Russia to transform into a modern, democratic state without
imperial, superpower ambitions. Dreaming about coming back to their imperial
past will only bring them trouble.

Seanus: Do you feel that corruption in Poland has been lowered by accession to the EU? If so, how?

I believe it was lowered, if only by adhering to common standards and having EU control
over many funds and projects. The law was adjusted in Poland to EU standards in most
areas and if you have a good law, then you have less space open for corruption and
aberrations on administrative level. Unfortunately, we had the most ridiculous economic
system imposed on us for 45 years and now we have to fight the damages and bad habits
that it left behind.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Mar 2010 #52
On the first point, agreed. Russia is heavily dependent on Europe for business. However, that doesn't detract from the fact that it has principles to uphold. We will never truly know the truth but Putin gave a very good account of himself in that international gas conference. It is likely that some foreign intervention was involved to rock the boat with them and Ukraine. Just like in Georgia before.

The 'take on Europe' was an extension of the principled approach. It turned off the gas and we saw the devastating effects and the reliance of Europe on it. In an ideal world, each party would recognise the symbiotic nature of the relationship but games are played and which country championed roulette? ;) ;) They rolled the dice well, a calculated gamble!

True. I was talking about Ukraine, though. Kasparov has been chipping away. Sasha is also the man here to outline the progress on that front. Just look at major powers, I don't buy into some of the views of Alex Jones and Aaron Russo (RIP) on America becoming fascist (far too strong a word) but China, Russia and the US are much more interventionist than they could be. EU states also wield forceps and have police state tendencies. The EU is far from democratic and Farage spells it out clearly why. Lisbon and Rompuy/Ashton spring to mind.

Having good laws is one thing, enforcing them is quite another. You got it right, regimented attitudes are hard to shake off and the modus operandi doesn't change overnight. The will of the people is key but you have to question why people take bribes. I feel that more success comes from understanding the root causes and imposing crackdowns/clampdowns.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
29 Mar 2010 #53
Thanks, Torq, for supportive words. I also think this would be great if Ukraine could eventually join NATO and EU. I am surprised with Seanus even mentioning selfishness. Seanus, this is what moves the world around. Poland should first of all think about what is best for her people, not others. As Gruni said it is not angels' meeting. How much longer do you want to live life of a freaked-out freak every time you hear a word "russia"? They have some cards in their hands (like natural resources), well, it doesn't mean you have to lick the boots to get your tank filled, Seanus. The opinion you convey reminds me Europe, when Hitler was pointing fingers in every direction and the lands were cut with a sheepish attitude. We have similar people in politics.

With Ukraine joining these institutions in some future, I think Poland would not only gain a partner and protective shield from Russia, but also some voting power, which will shift a bit West-inclined balances. Our countries have lots in common and the same perspective on the world, so in my opinion it would be great. Also I wish I didn't have to get visa to kick some Polish ars* and get my Ukrainian ar*e kicked, but just jump in the car and do it :)

Well, there is a lot to fight against yet: corruption, political sell-out and complete retardedness and lowness of deputies. As soon as it is gone, the economy will no doubt improve. It is funny, but the state laws are the major drawback on everyone's enterpreneurial initiative. It profits only the richest and keeps the rest under its heel.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
29 Mar 2010 #54
Nathan, you already fight alongside Poles in Kosovo. Crow mentioned a big regiment down there. Why do you need NATO? Selfishness undermines the whole idea of a union. If you can't see past your own nose, you risk a future conflict. I understand the motive but half the time it's just to spite Russia and that's a double-edged sword.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
29 Mar 2010 #55
Well, there is a proverb we have: "One is not a warrior on the battlefield". Especially having Russia breathing in your ar*e constantly. NATO offers mutual defense and attack system, with highly trained and well-equipped army. It will greatly reduce spendings we have currently on defending every meter of border: we will concentrate more on Uki-Rus line. There is great opportunity to learn about new developments in the military field, when you have so many brains working on it. As you said we take part in many peace-keeping operations. So why not become part of the alliance? It's like constant dating with no intentions to make things simpler and less stressful. Seanus, you have to leave your sheepish ways and man up. What do you mean by spiting Russia? What does it care what we do? If I will be wondering whether my landlord listens at the door, I will never masturbate. You have to live, man.
Torq 32 | 2,897
29 Mar 2010 #56
Seanus: What makes you think that Russia wouldn't impose embargos

Seanus: Russia are prepared to stick to principles as they see them

Seanus: Putin was convinced

Seanus: They will take on Europe

Seanus: you risk a future conflict.

Seanus: it's just to spite Russia and that's a double-edged sword.

No hard feelings, amigo, but every time you speak of Russia I can sense a foul
smell coming from your pants ;) Russians can smell it too, in case of many western
politicians, and that gives them strength.

Nathan: What do you mean by spiting Russia? What does it care what we do?

Exactly - whether Ukraine joins NATO or not is a Ukrainian decision and Russia should
not interfere in the affairs of an independent country.
convex 20 | 3,978
29 Mar 2010 #57
Torq: Exactly - whether Ukraine joins NATO or not is a Ukrainian decision and Russia should
not interfere in the affairs of an independent country.

On the other hand, when a border country joins a military alliance which is viewed with suspicion, it becomes an issue.

It is the Ukraine's choice, of course, and their responsibility to deal with the fallout of making that choice.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
29 Mar 2010 #58
A question: What kind of faction runs Lithuania today?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
29 Mar 2010 #59
convex: On the other hand, when a border country joins a military alliance which is viewed with suspicion

You mean alliance, which has Poland, Lithuania,Latvia, Estonia,USA and Canada - all bordering Russia. Alliance which sells Russians top military ships? Alliance that works with Russia on many levels of co-operation? Somehow it doesn't evoke their suspicion, don't you think? It has nothing to do with a membership in NATO, convex. You don't know Russians too well ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
29 Mar 2010 #60
Nathan: If I will be wondering whether my landlord listens at the door, I will never masturbate. You have to live, man.

And for Nathan life equals masturbation, preferably with people listening :)))))


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